Most Optimized Wizard a Fighter Can Beat.

[The_Jette]

An assessment that´s pretty wrong. The fun part about using rules as written is that no-one can actually hide and not give information. Weird and implausible, but that´s so.

Agreed. You can protect yourself from scrying, telepathy, mind rape, and truth spells... But not from that farmer who saw you blast that dragon with a bolt of lightning then fly around and shoot it with little energy missiles. He's a farmer. That's the most exciting thing he ever saw. Of course he remembers it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think we should compile a quick list of essential magic items for our Fighter.

I mentioned the Cowl of Warding. What else should he have?

[Florian]

Perhaps the Fighter should take Hulking Hurler?

This is my middle finger and you might kiss it. Same as your OP: If you can´t even manage to tag an edition and write it in a way that is unambiguous and points out an edition, then don´t cry when something turns up that will upset your expected result.

@ColorBlindNinja:

Serious question?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Agreed. You can protect yourself from scrying, telepathy, mind rape, and truth spells... But not from that farmer who saw you blast that dragon with a bolt of lightning then fly around and shoot it with little energy missiles. He's a farmer. That's the most exciting thing he ever saw. Of course he remembers it.

Not if you mind rape him to forget it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

@ColorBlindNinja:

Serious question?

Yes, why wouldn't it be?

[Tainted_Scholar]

This is my middle finger and you might kiss it. Same as your OP: If you can´t even manage to tag an edition and write it in a way that is unambiguous and points out an edition, then don´t cry when something turns up that will upset your expected result.

Jesus Christ what is you problem!? All I did was suggest a build.

[Florian]

Not if you mind rape him to forget it.

Uninteresting. Diplomacy and the appropriate Knowledge skills will always provide results, as that its part of how they work.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Uninteresting. Diplomacy and the appropriate Knowledge skills will always provide results, as that its part of how they work.

But the Farmer literally can't remember the encounter. How would you get it out of him with diplomacy?

[Florian]

But the Farmer literally can't remember the encounter. How would you get it out of him with diplomacy?

Do I have to care? As long as I can beat the appropriate checks, I´ll get my answer.

I could plausible pay a Rupi to a beggar in New Delhi, do my Knowledge: Local check and know what you´re up to in New Jersey.

No Plausibel? Don´t get me stated...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Do I have to care? As long as I can beat the appropriate checks, I´ll get my answer.

I could plausible pay a Rupi to a beggar in New Delhi, do my Knowledge: Local check and know what you´re up to in New Jersey.

No Plausibel? Don´t get me stated...

I sense this is case of general vs specific; with Mind Rape being the specific case and thus exception to the norm.

[The_Jette]

Not if you mind rape him to forget it.

So, you're suggesting that somehow the hypothetical Wizard found out every single person in the entire world, and all other planes of existence, then teleported to them and mind raped his existence from their memory? And, this is genuinely your argument for why our hypothetical Fighter can't find any information about his existence? Sadly, I don't think there's anything RAW about wiping your existence from the collective knowledge of existence. However, my obvious question has to be this: why would any Wizard do this? Wizards usually want to be remembered.

[Beheld]

Please take a moment to reread what Mindblank protects from. Your argument that a Fighter can't use contacts in order to gain information is flawed for a few reasons. Can a Fighter not have magic equipment made for him because he can't make it? Do you know what the Gather Information skill is used for? Because it's specifically going around talking to people. No, he can't use it to pinpoint the location of the Wizard. I never said he could. So, let me put it another way: nearly every argument for the Wizard is "if properly prepared he can x." Why can't a Fighter use basic common sense and get a little bit of information on his opponent before the fight? Please tell me that.

Again, no I'm not, I'm arguing that you can't get blood from a stone.

If you spends 80 years gathering information on every living commoner, you might gather knowledge that "The Wizard appeared from nothing, fought and killed a Dragon, then disappeared" a few times. That doesn't give you any meaningful information about where he is or will be. The Fighter still can't find the Wizard.

2) The Fighter's basic common sense gets him no information at all. For basic common sense and one Gather Information check you can get literally no information. For basic common sense you can figure out that performing 3 billion gather information checks probably isn't worth your time. The fighter doesn't have any ability to get this information, that's why he can't have it.

3) The fighter can have WBL because WBL is a feature of being a level X Fighter (either NPC wealth or PC wealth). But having a level 18 Cleric around to cast all the spells for you is not a feature of being a level 20 Fighter unless you have the Leadership feat, and then, it's the Cleric cohort who is going to do 90% of the work, and you proved that Clerics are good and that Leadership is good, and the fighter still can't do anything.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Do I have to care? As long as I can beat the appropriate checks, I´ll get my answer.

I could plausible pay a Rupi to a beggar in New Delhi, do my Knowledge: Local check and know what you´re up to in New Jersey.

No Plausibel? Don´t get me stated...

That might be more TO than PO.

So, you're suggesting that somehow the hypothetical Wizard found out every single person in the entire world, and all other planes of existence, then teleported to them and mind raped his existence from their memory? And, this is genuinely your argument for why our hypothetical Fighter can't find any information about his existence? Sadly, I don't think there's anything RAW about wiping your existence from the collective knowledge of existence. However, my obvious question has to be this: why would any Wizard do this? Wizards usually want to be remembered.

I was just saying it was a possibility, also it was more in jest than anything else.

[Florian]

That might be more TO than PO.

It´s neither. It´s part of how this system was designed.

[The_Jette]

I was just saying it was a possibility, also it was more in jest than anything else.

It would be pretty funny to read a story about a Wizard who had gone through the entire multiverse cleaning any evidence of his existence out of paranoia that one of his enemies would come get him, going so far as to build his lair in the deepest part of the Underdark with no access to it except via teleportation. Then he dies when there's an earthquake and his entire cave complex collapses on him.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It would be pretty funny to read a story about a Wizard who had gone through the entire multiverse cleaning any evidence of his existence out of paranoia that one of his enemies would come get him, going so far as to build his lair in the deepest part of the Underdark with no access to it except via teleportation. Then he dies when there's an earthquake and his entire cave complex collapses on him.

That's why you should be incorporeal.

Edit:

Essential Magic Items

This might be a good place to start for the Fighter's gear.

Wings of Flying or Phoenix Cloak. Hmm...

[Florian]

That's why you should be incorporeal.

Realistically speaking, If I were to have proof how the whole soul-stuff works and a high-level wizard has it, my decisions would be very different.

[Jormengand]

Do you know what the Gather Information skill is used for? Because it's specifically going around talking to people. No, he can't use it to pinpoint the location of the Wizard. I never said he could. So, let me put it another way: nearly every argument for the Wizard is "if properly prepared he can x." Why can't a Fighter use basic common sense and get a little bit of information on his opponent before the fight? Please tell me that.

Because Gather Information doesn't work that way.

"An evening’s time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends, and a DC 10 Gather Information check get you a general idea of a city’s major news items, assuming there are no obvious reasons why the information would be withheld. The higher your check result, the better the information.

If you want to find out about a specific rumor, or a specific item, or obtain a map, or do something else along those lines, the DC for the check is 15 to 25, or even higher."

So, the DC is DM-determined, so for "Useful combat information about a high-level wizard who is trying not to be found" it could easily be DC 40, which is beyond the reach of fighter with a probable charisma penalty and 11 ranks in the skill.

Uninteresting. Diplomacy and the appropriate Knowledge skills will always provide results, as that its part of how they work.

Similarly, Knowledge is unlikely to work either; even if you take the literal reading of how knowledge checks work where it's like an uncannily-accurate divination, you still need a DC 30 knowledge (local) check - or knowledge (something else) if his creature type isn't humanoid - to remember a bit of useful information about the wizard, which the fighter can just possibly pass on a 20 or maybe a 19. Diplomacy? Doesn't work. All diplomacy is used for is changing people's attitudes - at best, someone will protect, back up, heal or aid you, and they may also chat, advise, offer limited help or advocate you, as well as performing socially expected interaction. If you manage the epic check to turn them fanatic they'll happily try to fight the wizard for you, but they still don't magically know where he is because nothing in any of the skill descriptions even implies that.

So to summarise, evil outsiders can't melt steel fighters, the moon astral projections were fake, and we should all wear tin-foil commoners to protect us from mind control. That, or you're lying. Hmm...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Realistically speaking, If I were to have proof how the whole soul-stuff works and a high-level wizard has it, my decisions would be very different.

What soul-stuff are you referring to?

[icefractal]

If people actually want to do this, I suggest an evolutionary process.
1) Start with an uniptimized Wizard, like an iconic.
2) Make a Fighter that can defeat that Wizard and all previous Wizards.
3) Make a Wizard that can defeat that Fighter and all previous Fighters.
4) GOTO 2

I also suggest that the level be 10 or 15 instead of 20. Reasons:
1) More applicable to most campaigns
2) Less work
3) Avoid endless arguments about Ice Assassin et al

I also suggest that there be a concrete objective, because a turtle-fest is not as interesting. Proposal:
1) The Wizard has a magic rose garden that will give him real ultimate power.
2) It will take the Fighter one minute (10 rounds of actions) to ruin it.
3) At the time the Fighter reaches the area, the ritual will finish in one hour (no further actions by Wizard needed).

So within an hour, one side will win.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If people actually want to do this, I suggest an evolutionary process.
1) Start with an uniptimized Wizard, like an iconic.
2) Make a Fighter that can defeat that Wizard and all previous Wizards.
3) Make a Wizard that can defeat that Fighter and all previous Fighters.
4) GOTO 2

That's an interesting idea. Any suggestion for an iconic Wizard build?

I also suggest that the level be 10 or 15 instead of 20. Reasons:
1) More applicable to most campaigns
2) Less work
3) Avoid endless arguments about Ice Assassin et al

I think by the time we reach high enough Op for Ice Assassin the Fighter will have already failed to slay a lower Op Wizard.

I also suggest that there be a concrete objective, because a turtle-fest is not as interesting. Proposal:
1) The Wizard has a magic rose garden that will give him real ultimate power.
2) It will take the Fighter one minute (10 rounds of actions) to ruin it.
3) At the time the Fighter reaches the area, the ritual will finish in one hour (no further actions by Wizard needed).

So within an hour, one side will win.

That's an interesting idea, but I think that works against the Fighter. 10 rounds is an eternity; that's plenty of time for the Wizard to disable him.

It won't take much, just Mage's Disjunction and Forcecage.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If people actually want to do this, I suggest an evolutionary process.
1) Start with an uniptimized Wizard, like an iconic.
2) Make a Fighter that can defeat that Wizard and all previous Wizards.
3) Make a Wizard that can defeat that Fighter and all previous Fighters.
4) GOTO 2

I really like this idea. Perhaps we could use a Elven Generalist Wizard with no prestige classes.

I also suggest that the level be 10 or 15 instead of 20. Reasons:
1) More applicable to most campaigns
2) Less work
3) Avoid endless arguments about Ice Assassin et al

I mostly wanted to Lvl 20 since that's when they're at they've gotten all their useful class features and what not.

I also suggest that there be a concrete objective, because a turtle-fest is not as interesting. Proposal:
1) The Wizard has a magic rose garden that will give him real ultimate power.
2) It will take the Fighter one minute (10 rounds of actions) to ruin it.
3) At the time the Fighter reaches the area, the ritual will finish in one hour (no further actions by Wizard needed).

So within an hour, one side will win.

That might be an interesting 2nd Scenario. We'd see who would win in a straight fight and in a slightly more complicated challenge.

[PanosIs]

This discussion seems to have recovered from the lapse of common sense that happened in the page before and the benchmark seems alright enough. (Rose gardens)

I think we can start from a generalist wizard with core only spells and work our way from there. I also agree that it should be before 9th level spells are on the table because of various things like Ice Assassin, Shapechange et. al but it doesn't really matter that much. Its not like we don't know spells are better than a lack thereof.

[AvatarVecna]

I'd be fine going to 20th lvl on both sides as long as certain problematic high-level spells are avoided. the Wizzard build previously put forth was inoptimally generated, but was not actually all that unoptimal; all it really proves is that a Wizard 20 with literally nothing worth mentioning but Shapechange and Astral Projection is still a formidable foe.

I'm currently working on a rather cheesy wizard build that is optimized with the end goal of "spend as many spells as possible on all-day buffs, and then pretend to be a monk or fighter". Y'know, see if a self-buffing wizard that avoids totally broken BS like polymorph effects can Big Number better than a fighter can Big Number. No summoning, no debuffing, no AoE or BFC, just self-buffing and wrecking face all day. I can't say if the end result will be an even fight, but I think it can certainly be a fair fight.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm currently working on a rather cheesy wizard build that is optimized with the end goal of "spend as many spells as possible on all-day buffs, and then pretend to be a monk or fighter". Y'know, see if a self-buffing wizard that avoids totally broken BS like polymorph effects can Big Number better than a fighter can Big Number. No summoning, no debuffing, no AoE or BFC, just self-buffing and wrecking face all day. I can't say if the end result will be an even fight, but I think it can certainly be a fair fight.

Kinda like a CoDzilla but with a Wizard? It certainly sounds interesting, I'll say that.

[AvatarVecna]

Kinda like a CoDzilla but with a Wizard? It certainly sounds interesting, I'll say that.

Essentially, yeah. Not quite DMM: Persist levels of cheese, but Incantatrix still has some BS in it. Ultimately, I figure putting the wizard into a Big Number contest with the fighter will make determining the victor much simpler (since it's essentially a contest between two fighters, it becomes more a comparison of offense and defense in pure numbers, rather than "I'm on another plane" or "I'm immune to everything" kind of BS defenses and "no save no SR just suck it up" or "7-layer BFC/AoE damage/round" BS offenses.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Essentially, yeah. Not quite DMM: Persist levels of cheese, but Incantatrix still has some BS in it. Ultimately, I figure putting the wizard into a Big Number contest with the fighter will make determining the victor much simpler (since it's essentially a contest between two fighters, it becomes more a comparison of offense and defense in pure numbers, rather than "I'm on another plane" or "I'm immune to everything" kind of BS defenses and "no save no SR just suck it up" or "7-layer BFC/AoE damage/round" BS offenses.

It'll be kinda sad if the Wizard turns out to be better at melee then the Fighter though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It'll be kinda sad if the Wizard turns out to be better at melee then the Fighter though.

I'd say that it's likely. Spells can easily shoot your AC, STR, ect. into the stratosphere.

Essentially, yeah. Not quite DMM: Persist levels of cheese, but Incantatrix still has some BS in it. Ultimately, I figure putting the wizard into a Big Number contest with the fighter will make determining the victor much simpler (since it's essentially a contest between two fighters, it becomes more a comparison of offense and defense in pure numbers, rather than "I'm on another plane" or "I'm immune to everything" kind of BS defenses and "no save no SR just suck it up" or "7-layer BFC/AoE damage/round" BS offenses.

Are you planning to use Polymorph/Shapechange to boost your stats?

[Beheld]

I also suggest that there be a concrete objective, because a turtle-fest is not as interesting. Proposal:
1) The Wizard has a magic rose garden that will give him real ultimate power.
2) It will take the Fighter one minute (10 rounds of actions) to ruin it.
3) At the time the Fighter reaches the area, the ritual will finish in one hour (no further actions by Wizard needed).

So within an hour, one side will win.

I don't buy these kind of stipulations, you are basically handing the Fighter infinite knowledge he couldn't have and transportation he couldn't manage. If you throw 90% of high level into the trash to start the comparison, why not just use lower level character like level 7.

[AvatarVecna]

It'll be kinda sad if the Wizard turns out to be better at melee then the Fighter though.

That would be quite sad, yes. If it helps, my build gets a lot less effective if certain sources are off the table; I could deal with losing obscure splats and having to use lesser spells to reach similar effects (giving up Triple Strike for regular old Haste, for instance), but if Dragon Magazine was off the table (and it usually is), my Will save would be 10 points lower (and closer to a regular Wizard Will save), and my HP would plummet a good bit (using Int in place of Con for HP is great in the early levels, and becomes less necessary when I get some good Con buffs up). Considering that Dragon Magazine is often banned and/or not considered 1st party, it's easy to take away some parts of the build...although I still think it'll largely be functional.

Are you planning to use Polymorph/Shapechange to boost your stats?

Nope. Not touching polymorph effects, as previously stated. The characterization I'm going for is a wizard who believes in his own enlightened use of ki; he's perfectly fine enhancing his own body to Super-Saiyan levels, but just copying the body of another creature is cheap magic tricks that let puny mages pretend to be real warriors like him.