Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Since you're so fond of bringing up the legal system, you may like to know that a former US Supreme Court justice rather famously disagrees with you.

All right, I'll admit I'm curious to know this one. Blame my lack of legal knowledge, but I was willing to agree that almost punching someone is enough of a threat to constitute assault (not battery, naturally).

[Emperor Demonking]

Good thing that's not what happened in this situation then. Bandana isn't punching Andi, or anything of the sort. Again, getting in someone's face like that, while aggressive posturing, is not physical contact.


Again, don't make arguments about statements that aren't there. One might almost think you're arguing in bad faith.
You directly said:

To which I responded:




Thats fair; I went a little too far in my statement. First degree is worse than second degree and so on, but they're still evil actions and the fact that they warrant different sentences doesn't make them functionally that different; one is only slightly worse than the other.

"I don't see anywhere in the strip where Andi has to stand back up. It is very much a choice; no one is forcing Andi to do it but herself."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

All right, I'll admit I'm curious to know this one. Blame my lack of legal knowledge, but I was willing to agree that almost punching someone is enough of a threat to constitute assault (not battery, naturally).

Peelee was probably referencing the famous legal adage that "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins". It turns out that it is one of those quotes that gets attached to a bunch of people, though, so not sure who Peelee had in mind specifically.

The point remains, regardless of who actually came up with it, that not touching is not an assault. Contact must be made for an assault.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Peelee was probably referencing the famous legal adage that "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins". It turns out that it is one of those quotes that gets attached to a bunch of people, though, so not sure who Peelee had in mind specifically.

The point remains, regardless of who actually came up with it, that not touching is not an assault. Contact must be made for an assault.

Grey Wolf

Huh. Always heard that was from Oliver Wendell Holmes. Whoops.

ETA: I do think that taking a swing at someone is assault (at least where I live), but I would also assert that leaning in and throwing a punch are nowhere even remotely near each other on the "assault" line.

[2D8HP]

To the OP:

Does the strip still have the emotional impact of earlier stuff like; http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html?

Well no, but I wouldn't want it to, as I don't want to keep shedding that many tears.

I find the Mechane awesome (I'd love Scoundrels Technical Manual),.I think the art is getting ever better, and I still love the strip.

---

As for the Andromeda vs. Beatrix debate, Bandana is right, Andi is wrong.. but despite that I really do sympathise with her.

all i can say is this:

if your main job description is "Fixes machines"

And you are aware of multiple BROKEN machines

And you are aware as to how those BROKEN machines are PREVENTING you from being alive

Your first instinct SHOULD be "Fix the damn machines" not "Complain about the broken machines and the people who died because they are currently broken"

I know in my own job thar after continually "trying to empty an ocean with a spoon", the desire to stop the machines from breaking in the first place becomes strong.

Andi (in her blinkered view) was trying to get the Mechane (which she cares about) from being damaged further by a "mission" she doesn't understand.

Back when i was a dishwasher I’d often face this. I’d be hit with too many dishes for me to clean without risk of....


....So the other person (who was going at least halfway to the other side of the kitchen anyways) tells the manager that i need help, and the manager finds someone who isn't doing something urgent (like say, someone stocking the freezer with breadsticks) and sends them off to help me by taking dishes I’ve already cleaned and putting them away. it's a small job that's simple to do, but it's necessary, and allows me to focus solely on washing and less on putting away.Hell, the guy who makes costumes doesn't seem to do much else. if Andi thought there was too much work for her to do, then Bandana could have sent in Costume-guy to do something simple but necessary, such as transport tools, grab spare parts from storage, or even going around and visually identifying problems on the various machines and reporting them to someone who can figure out what's easiest to fix.

Far too often my "help for a day" needs so much training that I wind up further behind.

If making costumes is really all "costume guy" does, then I doubt much help could be provided.

Hand on heart. You are going to die. You have seen people die. The person leading you to your death decided to get in your space to scream at you. (Apparently its not Bandi or the Frost Giants that are why you're going to die, its because you lack the proper chirpiness) You can say with 100% certainty that you don't lash out once with your dominant hand? 100%?

Sadly I probably would lash out.

Hand on heart. You're going to die. You have seen people die. The person who could be fixing important equipment you really depend on has spent the past few minutes whining instead of doing her job. You can say with 100% certainty that you don't yell at her briefly? 100%?.

I'm sure I would yell.

I do find that the Giant has crafted a story in which the actions of both A & B are sympathetic.

That one is right and the other wrong doesn't change that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"I don't see anywhere in the strip where Andi has to stand back up. It is very much a choice; no one is forcing Andi to do it but herself."

Those are responses to two different statement from you, namely "Bandana turns away as soon as she allows Andi to stand back up" and "The wrenching of Bandi is not a choice by Andi".
I guess I could have formatted it better, but it takes a pretty significant amount of disingenuity to both read it that way from the start and refuse to accept that my interpretation of what I actually wrote is correct. Almost as if you're running out of arguments.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh. Always heard that was from Oliver Wendell Holmes. Whoops.

Well, he is the first one mentioned, so presumably he's the most common association.

ETA: I do think that taking a swing at someone is assault (at least where I live), but I would also assert that leaning in and throwing a punch are nowhere even remotely near each other on the "assault" line.

If leaning in and shouting at some loafer to go do their work was a crime, every line manager in every country in the world would be in jail.

They are not, ergo it is not a crime. It is what a manager has to do to get some lazy bum to get back to work (don't believe such people exist? Just browse the entries in Not Always Working). Surprisingly, few people respond to that by braining their managers, and those that do are universally considered guilty of assault themselves.

But I'm sure that has nothing to do with what was shown in the comic.

Grey Wolf

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Huh. Always heard that was from Oliver Wendell Holmes. Whoops.

ETA: I do think that taking a swing at someone is assault (at least where I live), but I would also assert that leaning in and throwing a punch are nowhere even remotely near each other on the "assault" line.

I mean, I'm decently sure that assault can be just threatening physical injury, while battery is the injury proper. Then again I'm no lawyer, so I'll default to you and Grey_Wolf here. Either way, neither describes what Bandana is doing.

[Emperor Demonking]

Those are responses to two different statement from you, namely "Bandana turns away as soon as she allows Andi to stand back up" and "The wrenching of Bandi is not a choice by Andi".
I guess I could have formatted it better, but it takes a pretty significant amount of disingenuity to both read it that way from the start and refuse to accept that my interpretation of what I actually wrote is correct. Almost as if you're running out of arguments.

I was not the one who after - at most chartiably - writing an extremely misleading paragraph posted "Again, don't make arguments about statements that aren't there. One might almost think you're arguing in bad faith." If you're forced to write - being most charitable - terribly misleadingly formated posts simply so that you can claim that I am arguing in bad faith, then I think that you have already run out of arguments.

In which case there's no real point with dealing any further, is there?

[2D8HP]

...Surprisingly, few people respond to that by braining their managers, and those that do are universally conidered guilty of assault themselves....

Yeah that is weird, in my grandfathers time violence between labor and management still happened, which for some strange reason doesn't anymore.

I've only gotten in one fist fight with a boss (in '95) myself. I worked there another 4 years after he begged me to come back.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I was not the one who after - at most chartiably - writing an extremely misleading paragraph posted "Again, don't make arguments about statements that aren't there. One might almost think you're arguing in bad faith." If you're forced to write - being most charitable - terribly misleadingly formated posts simply so that you can claim that I am arguing in bad faith, then I think that you have already run out of arguments.

In which case there's no real point with dealing any further, is there?

Yeah, if you're only actual argument to what I wrote is to complain my formatting then there's not much of a point. Not that this thread really should have gone any further past its first page.

[Emperor Demonking]

Yeah, if you're only actual argument to what I wrote is to complain my formatting then there's not much of a point. Not that this thread really should have gone any further past its first page.

I'm not complaining about your formating. I'm complaining about your claiming that I am not acting in good faith, when I took the most obvious reading of your post (that the 'it' in your second sentence of your paragraph refered to the subject of your first sentence of your paragraph rather than some random subject in my post that you never see fit to actually reference).

[eggynack]

If the screaming did not lead to the striking. If the striking was a plot to take over the ship. Then why was the screaming placed in the story at all?

The yelling was the final provocation. It wasn't a super long term plan. But Andi's desire to run the ship was a major driver of her actions, and the following events bear that out.

And obviously two wrongs don't make a right. Striking Bandana was wrong, but that doesn't mean Andi should have had them continue on the pass, allowed Bandana to fop around on deck, or immediately untie Bandana and confuse the chain of command.

She should have had them continue on the pass, because that was the plan of the leader whose role she supposedly respects, because the wrench attack is apparently not due to a fundamental disrespect for said leader. The flopping about seemed like a bit of an excuse, but whatever. But if the tying up is to stop her from flopping around, and only for that purpose, then not untying her is illogical. And she should have untied her, because this was supposedly not a brazen power grab but was instead a single act of, what is it now, self defense? Momentary insanity? What she did is totally inconsistent with this idea of Andi as a character who made one mistake in the heat of the moment. What it's consistent with is Andi as a character who either attacked Bandana to grab power, or who took advantage of said attack to grab power. She could have trivially not grabbed power. It's not that hard.

No other member of the crew thought untying Bandana was a good idea either - until she made her monoogue - that's not crazy Andi, with her bittereness and lust for power.

They never really said it was a good or bad idea. They were just waiting until there weren't other super pressing matters to initiate a power struggle with crazy wrench lady.

[Emperor Demonking]

The yelling was the final provocation. It wasn't a super long term plan. But Andi's desire to run the ship was a major driver of her actions, and the following events bear that out.

But was the yelling an essential and most recent part of that drive? Whatever is going on in the background. Is not the foreground her being screamed out becoming furious and striking. It is possible that Andi is a naturally a very calm person who unfortunately has an issue with the person who happens to be her captain. But, Andi having personality flaws is not a justification for yelling at her. And even if Andi has a particular personality flaw of "will attack with what ever is in her dominant hand, if screamed at and leant over by Bandana while in a life or death situation" then that simply shouldn't even come up, Andi shouldn't be doing that.

She should have had them continue on the pass, because that was the plan of the leader whose role she supposedly respects, because the wrench attack is apparently not due to a fundamental disrespect for said leader.

That's a complete non-sequitor. The fact that she attacked Andi out of reflex does not imply that she respects Bandi's leadership. Andi has made no secret of her disrespect, and if Bandi had a problem with that then as captain she has had countless oportunities to deal with it calmly.

The flopping about seemed like a bit of an excuse, but whatever.

The half-elf seemed to accept it.

But if the tying up is to stop her from flopping around, and only for that purpose, then not untying her is illogical.

No. Andi is captain and engineer. Bandi doesn't know what is going on. Andi has greater prorities than untying her. What should she have not done in favour of untying Bandanna - survey the geography or fix the engines?

And she should have untied her, because this was supposedly not a brazen power grab but was instead a single act of, what is it now, self defense? Momentary insanity? What she did is totally inconsistent with this idea of Andi as a character who made one mistake in the heat of the moment. What it's consistent with is Andi as a character who either attacked Bandana to grab power, or who took advantage of said attack to grab power. She could have trivially not grabbed power. It's not that hard.

Nobody else on the crew thought untying Bandanana was a good idea. Everyone else considered having a captain was a good idea. It is true that in a sense that letting yourself and everyone you love die because you don't want to cease power is easy, but in another (and I think more important sense) it is difficult.

They never really said it was a good or bad idea. They were just waiting until there weren't other super pressing matters to initiate a power struggle with crazy wrench lady.

The crazy wrench lady who was underneath the decks? The super-pressing measures that coincidently were dealt with upon Bandi finishing her monologue thus allowing them to stand together not doing much to confront Andi when she came back up?

[Ruck]

If the auto-wrench was not in reaction to the physical confrontation. Then how come it occured a mere two panels after?

The fact that you keep calling it "auto-wrench" underlines the problem. You keep using language that deliberately eliminates Andi's responsibility for her own actions from the conversation. (Kish and others have also pointed this out to you.) This is what I mean when I say you consider Bandana more responsible for the assault than Andi, and I don't think we're going to make progress until you admit that's what you're arguing. (And then, I don't think we'll make progress because most people believe individuals are responsible for their own actions.)

[Peelee]

Nobody else on the crew thought untying Bandanana was a good idea.

Nobody else thought talking back to the person who just hit the last person who talked back to her with a giant freaking wrench was a good idea, you mean.

[SaintRidley]

I'd like to take the time to remark on the unique decision to call Bandana "Bandi", clearly playing on Andromeda's shortened name. It's an interesting rhetorical move which seems designed to reframe away from Bandana toward an imagined version of her where Andi's faults are projected onto her, hence "Bandi." That "Bandi" as described does not exist in the comic is almost unimportant. Rather, the fact that Bandana is made to embody the faults of Andi, so much so that her name is to be morphed to resemble Andi's as well, offers a clear window into the mind at work.

Just an observation.

[Ruck]

I'd like to take the time to remark on the unique decision to call Bandana "Bandi", clearly playing on Andromeda's shortened name. It's an interesting rhetorical move which seems designed to reframe away from Bandana toward an imagined version of her where Andi's faults are projected onto her, hence "Bandi." That "Bandi" as described does not exist in the comic is almost unimportant. Rather, the fact that Bandana is made to embody the faults of Andi, so much so that her name is to be morphed to resemble Andi's as well, offers a clear window into the mind at work.

Just an observation.

Heh, the "Bandi" thing had been bugging me too, and I wasn't quite sure why, but I think you're onto something-- there's some kind of deliberate attempt to muddle Andi's mistakes and personality into Bandana's responsibility, same as the actual argument being made here.

[Emperor Demonking]

The fact that you keep calling it "auto-wrench" underlines the problem. You keep using language that deliberately eliminates Andi's responsibility for her own actions from the conversation. (Kish and others have also pointed this out to you.) This is what I mean when I say you consider Bandana more responsible for the assault than Andi, and I don't think we're going to make progress until you admit that's what you're arguing.

I have always made clear that I consider Andi's action a reaction for which she has no moral blame. For example, I have used the word auto-wrench to demonstrate that the wrenching was automatic. So even in my choosing of words I have literally coined new ones in order to make my position as clear as can be. I think any suggestion that I am hiding my position to be unfair.

(And then, I don't think we'll make progress because most people believe individuals are responsible for their own actions.)

Are you responsible for every sneeze, blink, or - perhaps more relevantly - flinch or kick? Do you consider reflex a thing? Society also makes allowances for stuff like crimes of passsion. Do you have no sympathy who in an episodfe becomes a nuisance? Most people believe individuals being responsible for their own actions is the general rule, but there are extra-ordinary circumstances. I think most people would call being attacked in an airship as it begins to crash in a hostile situation. Even armies understand that people can react terribly in such situations and try to not send the ones who would react badly in.

I'd like to take the time to remark on the unique decision to call Bandana "Bandi", clearly playing on Andromeda's shortened name. It's an interesting rhetorical move which seems designed to reframe away from Bandana toward an imagined version of her where Andi's faults are projected onto her, hence "Bandi." That "Bandi" as described does not exist in the comic is almost unimportant. Rather, the fact that Bandana is made to embody the faults of Andi, so much so that her name is to be morphed to resemble Andi's as well, offers a clear window into the mind at work.

It is also much shorter than Bandana. Won't be mispelt like Bandana. And makes it really easy to change from one to the other if you mistype. I would suggest - just like with the shape of rockets - that its obvious practical value ought to be foremost rather than attempts to psych-analyze.

Nobody else thought talking back to the person who just hit the last person who talked back to her with a giant freaking wrench was a good idea, you mean.

No, Andi was down decks and Bandi was still tied up. Please try to be at least a little bit honest, at least when claiming what I really mean.

[Peelee]

I have always made clear that I consider Andi's action a reaction for which she has no moral blame. For example, I have used the word auto-wrench to demonstrate that the wrenching was automatic.

Except, by your own arguments, it wasn't. You claim that the wrench was automatic in response to being yelled at and leaned in towards. However, Bandana stops yelling and turns around. No longer posing any threat (even to the extent that you claim there was threat to begin with), with Andi just standing there being angry. An automatic response would have happened immediately. Not waited for her to turn around and keep talking.

No auto-wrench. It just didn't happen like you want it to have happened.

ETA: Also, even all that is under the assumption that auto-wrench is an acceptable defense. It's not. You can't say, "well, i attacked this person with a potentially deadly weapon because they were kind of mean to me after I antagonized them. Also, they leaned in and I had to back off a couple of inches. TOTALLY justifiable," and expect to not be laughed out of wherever you're trying to argue that.

[Draconi Redfir]

Again i'm just going to point out: Andi was not doing her job. had she been doing her job, then Bandana would not have yelled at her in the first place. Andi was actively doing the exact opposite of her job, wich is nothing.

if you're not going to fault Andi for attacking her superior, at least aknowledge that she should have been doing her job. there is no reason why she should not be doing her job during a combat situation.

[Priceguy]

To be blunt, having a plan doesn't justify much if the end result- or even intermediate segments- is something a reader finds boring, padded or artificial. I won't weigh in on every segment of the plot that might qualify- I'm sure it varies with the reader- but "I had reasons for X, leading to Y" gets you into a cost-benefit analysis about whether Y was worth the expense of X.

Of course. My point was more along the lines that this is what the comic is like, The Giant viewing it as a complete story rather than as separate pages. The "side quest" of finding the star metal must have seemed superfluous at the time but had ramifications stretching way into the future, which means that this is not a recent development but the comic's standard state of being for over a decade. So if someone doesn't like it, then they just plain don't like the comic. Which is fine, of course, but not a reason to ask if OOTS is even trying "anymore".

[Emperor Demonking]

Again i'm just going to point out: Andi was not doing her job. had she been doing her job, then Bandana would not have yelled at her in the first place. Andi was actively doing the exact opposite of her job, wich is nothing.

if you're not going to fault Andi for attacking her superior, at least aknowledge that she should have been doing her job. there is no reason why she should not be doing her job during a combat situation.

If your boss is right there and talking to you, I think there's a fair argument that continuing to speak to your boss is your job. If your boss thinks otherwise then she's right there talking to you and can tell you so. In addition, I'm willing to make allowances for a member of the crew not acting 100% optimally - particularly when her captain is right there - in such a stressful situation.

Except, by your own arguments, it wasn't. You claim that the wrench was automatic in response to being yelled at and leaned in towards. However, Bandana stops yelling and turns around. No longer posing any threat (even to the extent that you claim there was threat to begin with), with Andi just standing there being angry. An automatic response would have happened immediately. Not waited for her to turn around and keep talking.

That's simply not accurate. For one thing, Andi was only able to stand up once Bandi had turned around - there's no waiting, in the panel immediately after her being able to stand up Bandi has been autowrenched. There was not opportunity

No auto-wrench. It just didn't happen like you want it to have happened.

ETA: Also, even all that is under the assumption that auto-wrench is an acceptable defense. It's not. You can't say, "well, i attacked this person with a potentially deadly weapon because they were kind of mean to me after I antagonized them. Also, they leaned in and I had to back off a couple of inches. TOTALLY justifiable," and expect to not be laughed out of wherever you're trying to argue that.

You're ignoring the corpses and the Frost Giants. The corspses Frost Giants make it an extraordinary situation.

You seriously think that most people would laugh at you if you explained "I had seen three of my friends killed. I feared for my life. I was annoying my boss. She turned round got right in my face - my back leaning back - and screamed at me. I saw utter red. Struck her once.I was carrying my wrench. She had immediately turned her head. She went out cold." and people would be guffwaing?

Whether you think it is suitable justification to consider it temporary insanity or not, I think most people would be capable of sufficient empathy to sympathis, even if they think she needs to be punished.

[hamishspence]

I'm willing to make allowances for a member of the crew not acting 100% optimally - particularly when her captain is right there - in such a stressful situation.

But you're not willing to make allowances for the captain not acting 100% optimally when dealing with one of the contributors to the stress in the situation.

Andi's behaviour isn't just "annoying the boss" - it is outright dereliction of duty. It's like being caught sleeping on duty by an officer, during wartime.

[Lacuna Caster]

I see similitudes in fan reactions...

To be fair, Miko had a much longer pre-established history at the time, some of which featured restraint, generosity and heroism. I don't know what's going on here that people are so attached to Andi.

[hamishspence]

The point where I really started losing sympathy for her was when she kept on complaining about the Order's actions instead of doing her own job:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html

Bandana's "What is it now?" and exasperated expression really sells how annoying and unreasonable (and neglectful of her own job) Andi is being.

[Lacuna Caster]

Of course. My point was more along the lines that this is what the comic is like, The Giant viewing it as a complete story rather than as separate pages. The "side quest" of finding the star metal must have seemed superfluous at the time but had ramifications stretching way into the future, which means that this is not a recent development but the comic's standard state of being for over a decade. So if someone doesn't like it, then they just plain don't like the comic. Which is fine, of course, but not a reason to ask if OOTS is even trying "anymore".

Speaking personally, I found the starmetal quest to be entertaining by itself, there was much less in the way of update fatigue, OOTS was much closer to being a series of random hijinks with minimal plot structure, and while the usefulness of starmetal is clear enough I would suspect that any connection with the Elder Black Dragon was invented much later. (No way to prove it, of course.)

Times have changed, man.

[Emperor Demonking]

But you're not willing to make allowances for the captain not acting 100% optimally when dealing with one of the contributors to the stress in the situation.

I am utterly willing to make allowances for her. You will note that have never called Bandana evil. I have never said she deserved to be auto-wrenched. I am quite happy making allowances for Bandi. The question is why you think I should extend those allowances only to Bandi?

However, she's the captain. She had the power to defuse the sitation. She initiated physical confrontantion. And a long rant and leaning over someone requires more mental effort and awareness than one swing.

In comparison, what are the points against Andi? That she was carrying a wrench. That she should have been doing her job (despite her captain being right there and speaking to her. I don't think its Andi's job to end the conversation (You may say that Bandi was giving strong hints than Andi ought to go. But its not Andi's job to read strong hints either. Bandi can give an order or not give an order.)). That she was bitter beforehand. Am I missing anything?

To respond to them. Whether she was carrying a wrench makes no difference to the claim of being in a such a stressful situation. People being bitter towards you does not justify screaming in their face and initiating a physical confrontation. Therefore Andi is not cupable for being in such a situation and is not cupable for her understandable reactions.

Andi's behaviour isn't just "annoying the boss" - it is outright dereliction of duty. It's like being caught sleeping on duty by an officer, during wartime.

Your boss screaming at you for not doing your job when your boss has full knowledge and you are talking to your boss at the time is something from a bad joke. Its not like being "caught" anything, Andi was hiding nothing.

[hamishspence]

Andi is culpable, for moving away from her post - which is "repairing damage" to complain to Bandana about things like the Order's actions in the middle of the fight. She should not have left off repair in the first place.

[Emperor Demonking]

Andi is culpable, for moving away from her post - which is "repairing damage" to complain to Bandana about things like the Order's actions in the middle of the fight. She should not have left off repair in the first place.

So she should have made no effort to keep the captain abreast of the situation? She should hsve not given the captain the opportunity to give new priorities. Even though in her professional opinion they were taking more crucial damage as could reasonably be fixed.

Would you say that if the ship failed because something crucial Bandana needed had been ignored because "I don't need little miss captain to tell me what to fix on my ship" that Andi would have been entirely in the right? And that it would utterly terribler criticism to say that she ought to have gone on deck and made Bandi aware, being that it would be advocating for dereliction of duty, that you would condem that quite strongly?

(or would you say that she should have sent one of the junior engineers for whom we have seen not the slightest hint of their existance, as somebody argued earlier in the thread.)