Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[hamishspence]

Do you have any examples in the comic of Julio acting in the way that you he must?

No crewer's ever defied Julio's orders or insulted him onscreen, as far as I know.

[Peelee]

1. I'm not saying Andi acted rightly, merely that she acted non-evilly - a claim I would also make about Bandana's acts.

Actually, you're saying that Andi responded without any moral culpability. Unless you wish to abandon that position, of course.

[eggynack]

Moving more towards real implementation of law, let's look at United States military insubordination law. You'll note that what Andi did, leading up to the yelling, fits this definition precisely. Andi didn't just deserve yelling. In this military context, which is rather comparable to what we're looking at, a ton of punishments can be levied. Being yelled at for a single panel was getting off ridiculously lightly.

[hamishspence]

She seemed shocked/regretful/sorry in the panel immediately after the strike.

I'd go with just shocked "I can't believe I just did that".

Regret or sorrow would have had upswept eyebrows like Mateo in strip 1076 (second-last panel).

[Kish]

You know, of all the many, many stretches and outright distortions Emperor Demonking has posted, I think the very basic claim that Andi's assault of Bandana was motivated by fear rather than anger is the most direct example of outright ignoring what's in the comic. She spends panel 7 doing nothing but twist her face into an expression of incandescent fury, after Bandana commits the horrifying atrocity of moving so that Andi has to lean back very slightly, and before she hits Bandana.

Because she doesn't like her. Somebody not liking you is not a justification for bellowing in their face. Nor does it suddenly make the exceptional situation unexceptional.

I appreciate that it feels utterly unnatural to you to look at anything Andi did as though it might be wrong, but you do remember you're asserting that Andi didn't deliberately hit Bandana and seize control of the ship, but somehow it was done by her body not under her control in a way she's not responsible for, right? Andi's tying her assault victim up and gloating over her may not have anything to do with your effort to blame the whole thing on Bandana having leaned toward Andi and shouted at her, but it serves to refute any "crime of passion" claim, which is actually far more relevant.

[woweedd]

[SNIP]
She seemed shocked/regretful/sorry in the panel immediately after the strike.

The reasons for not untying her are nunumerous, however we don't know if any of those reasons are what she was thinking. What we do know is that even while Andi was down fixing the engines, none of the crew thought untying her was the smart thing to do. Is that because they also had " some deep-seated resentment of Bandanna for being given the Captain position over her" or were the pirates afraid of their absent engineer?

If she did deliberately choose to attack Bandanna simply to fulfil her desired goal to become captain then why then? The panel immediately after. Bandi has been looking away unconcerned with Andi - more unconcerned in fact - in many panels before. Why wait?

"why did she brag over how right she was to hit Bandanna instead of helping her"

Because she doesn't like her. Somebody not liking you is not a justification for bellowing in their face. Nor does it suddenly make the exceptional situation unexceptional.

OK, she was regretful and shocked for two minutes before switching to smug superiority.

They didn't help Bandy because there was no guarantee Andi would come quiety as she did and having more crew in-fighting would just destabilize the situation further.

I can't even tell what your third point is saying.

Not liking someone is also not justification for hitting them across the head with a wrench and yet...Also, how is this an exceptional situation, exactly?

[Douglas]

it is. As I said ages before but Douglas disagreed I think we have different views on the reasonableness of "yelling at someone and invading their personal space in reaction". I take the view that it essentially shouldn't be done. There are perhaps exceptions if you sign up to an army bootcamp or the like, but yes it essentially shouldn't be done.

...

Fine. Yes, we disagree on the reasonableness of yelling and invading someone's personal space. I apparently misjudged that because you were also greatly downplaying the level of provocation Andi had given Bandana.

My stance, and I believe the stance of nearly everyone in this thread:
The following factors are present:

• Andi is not doing her job.
• Andi's job is important to the safety and survival of the ship and everyone on board.
• The situation is such that immediate performance of Andi's job is important to safety and survival.
• Andi is disrespecting the captain and disputing the captain's judgement repeatedly.
• The situation is such that promptly following the leadership of the captain is important to the safety and survival of the ship and everyone on board.
• Andi has displayed firm unwillingness to listen to reason with regard to fixing the "do her job" and "respect the captain" issues.

In light of these factors, all in combination, and especially with the last one added to the mix, I firmly believe that measures quite a lot more threatening and confrontational than "yelling and invading personal space" are not only justified and reasonable, but actively called for. This is, in my opinion, an exception quite similar to the "signing up for army bootcamp" one you mention.

The situation is in the heat of battle. Seconds may count. Getting Andi to do her job right the hell now is of utmost importance. Bandana has tried calm reasoned discussion already, and Andi has persisted despite it. Stronger steps are therefore called for, and Andi's behavior suggests that "giving an order" will not be meaningfully stronger. And however strong a step Bandana takes, she has (or at least should have) a reasonable expectation that Andi will not respond with physical violence.

[Emperor Demonking]

Simply telling her to not say that kinda thing certainly wasn't doing it. Ignoring her was just causing her to go behind her back to talk to the crew. The supposed reasonable solutions weren't effective.



She did give Andi an order. She did so loudly, because Andi had just insulted her again despite being repeatedly reprimanded for it, and because Andi had refused to respond to reason or to said reprimands. If you'll recall, Andi hit her with a wrench on that basis.


She did not show any fear immediately prior to the attack, and by immediately, I mean within a good number of panels. This is not a reasonable assumption.

I don't agree that she was scared in that moment. She was basically just expressing frustration and anger with Bandana's leadership. Everything she was talking about was directly related to the fact that Bandana wasn't listening to her.


But she wasn't expressing fear and anger. She was just expressing anger. Again, you're imprinting things onto the text that aren't clearly there.


If I were on an airship being downed by frost giants, I wouldn't do any of the stuff Andi did. I would thus not presume to let my mental state act as a mirror for hers. We can only go by what is presented. And she was solely angry.

I'm saying that, if I were to do something in that exact moment, it would be primarily, or even only, driven by the proximate cause, meaning anger.

"You're going to get us all killed!" certainly Andi was angry that Bandi was getting to get them all killed. Let us assume that you are right and that she doesn't fear them all getting killed but it is solely anger. It is because of the Frost Giants that Bandi is going to get them all kiled. Thus the Frost Giants are relevant to the magnitude of her anger. Thus the Frost Giants are relevant.

If you would like to say that the Frost Giants are not relevant and merely their approaching death, then I can agree with that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But even if you were right and I did get my language slightly off - which I haven't - how does that demonstrate that Andi is a monster?

Sure, let's skip language and pretend its a dialect issue or something. Whether or not Andi leans forward or stands up has nothing to do with the morality of what Andi does, nor did I say it did. In fact, I've never even said that Andi is a monster, or that what she did was monstrous. Of course, what she did was wrong and unreasonable, but not monstrous.

[Emperor Demonking]

...

Fine. Yes, we disagree on the reasonableness of yelling and invading someone's personal space. I apparently misjudged that because you were also greatly downplaying the level of provocation Andi had given Bandana.

My stance, and I believe the stance of nearly everyone in this thread:
The following factors are present:

• Andi is not doing her job.
• Andi's job is important to the safety and survival of the ship and everyone on board.
• The situation is such that immediate performance of Andi's job is important to safety and survival.
• Andi is disrespecting the captain and disputing the captain's judgement repeatedly.
• The situation is such that promptly following the leadership of the captain is important to the safety and survival of the ship and everyone on board.
• Andi has displayed firm unwillingness to listen to reason with regard to fixing the "do her job" and "respect the captain" issues.

In light of these factors, all in combination, and especially with the last one added to the mix, I firmly believe that measures quite a lot more threatening and confrontational than "yelling and invading personal space" are not only justified and reasonable, but actively called for. This is, in my opinion, an exception quite similar to the "signing up for army bootcamp" one you mention.

The situation is in the heat of battle. Seconds may count. Getting Andi to do her job right the hell now is of utmost importance. Bandana has tried calm reasoned discussion already, and Andi has persisted despite it. Stronger steps are therefore called for, and Andi's behavior suggests that "giving an order" will not be meaningfully stronger. And however strong a step Bandana takes, she has (or at least should have) a reasonable expectation that Andi will not respond with physical violence.

If seconds count then why did she lean over, bellowed in Andi's face "then fix something" and then continued bellowing rather than letting her get to work imediately?

We should all hope not to be struck with violence, but even if I were an agressive person, I would not lean over, bellow at someone in a very stressful situation who was holding a wrench. I would consider that pretty dumb.

I can't even tell what your third point is saying.

Why did Andi begin to strike her in the panel after being screamed at instead of all the better opportunities before, if her motive was the cold pursuit of power.

Not liking someone is also not justification for hitting them across the head with a wrench and yet...
Also, how is this an exceptional situation, exactly?

Frost giants. Going to die. Three crew members responsible for defending the deck were literally all killed
in one swing of an axe? You think this normal for the Mechane?

[hamishspence]

Trying to get it into Andi's head just how much time has been wasted. She's halfway through telling Andi what to fix when Andi attacks.

[Douglas]

If seconds count then why did she lean over, bellowed in Andi's face "then fix something" and then continued bellowing rather than letting her get to work imediately?

Because "letting her get to work" was not an available option. For that option to be available, Andi first has to be convinced to make it available, and that was what Bandana was attempting to do throughout that bellowing. Stopping at "then fix something" was not going to get it done.

[hamishspence]

Sure, let's skip language and pretend its a dialect issue or something.

"Straighten up" would be the preferred term, when one is mostly upright but not standing straight.

[Emperor Demonking]

Sure, let's skip language and pretend its a dialect issue or something. Whether or not Andi leans forward or stands up has nothing to do with the morality of what Andi does, nor did I say it did.

Do you not think you were implying it was relevant by going on and on about it?

In fact, I've never even said that Andi is a monster, or that what she did was monstrous. Of course, what she did was wrong and unreasonable, but not monstrous.

Obviously it was wrong. But I assume you are a reasonable person. Can you put your hand on your heart and say with 100% confidence that you would not have reacted bady if you were in Andi's shoes. You're going to die. Your captain's awful. And you remain cool and collected?

Because "letting her get to work" was not an available option. For that option to be available, Andi first has to be convinced to make it available, and that was what Bandana was attempting to do throughout that bellowing. Stopping at "then fix something" was not going to get it done.

How do you know that? How would Bandi have known that?

Are you saying that there is literally nothing Bandi could have done to make Andi go down and repair stuff? That's convenient for Bandi.

[Kish]

The mutiny strip itself alone has:
Panel 3: Andi yells at Bandana and orders her around. Bandana is trying to do her job. Andi is standing on the bridge holding a wrench, leaving her job undone.
Panel 4: Andi yells at Bandana, orders her around, and insults her, explicitly indicating she thinks Bandana has some obligation to obey her. Bandana is trying to do her job. Andi is standing on the bridge holding a wrench, leaving her job undone.
Panel 5: Andi insults Bandana again and guesses at the problems with the engine, which she has mysteriously not actually looked at while she has been standing on the bridge holding a wrench and berating Bandana. Bandana is not in this panel.
Panel 6: Bandana leans in and yells back at Andi, for one panel. Andi leans back slightly. Her expression is of shock.
Panel 7: Bandana tries to go back to doing her job, including giving Andi a specific order, should someone suggest that the chief engineer reasonably needs exact orders from the captain. Andi bares her teeth in incandescent rage.
Panel 8: Andi hits Bandana on the back of her head with a wrench.
Panel 9: Andi covers her mouth as Bandana falls. Her expression is exactly the same shock as when Bandana yelled at her.
Panel 10: Everyone looked shocked--Andi the least, as her mouth is closed.
Panel 11: Andi gives a (bad) order.
Nowhere at all, ever: Andi tries to take back or make up for her mutiny.

...so yes, I totally see how someone would look at that and see Bandana impeding Andi's ability to do her job, and not the other way around.

[woweedd]

If seconds count then why did she lean over, bellowed in Andi's face "then fix something" and then continued bellowing rather than letting her get to work imediately?

We should all hope not to be struck with violence, but even if I were an agressive person, I would not lean over, bellow at someone in a very stressful situation who was holding a wrench. I would consider that pretty dumb.



Why did Andi begin to strike her in the panel after being screamed at instead of all the better opportunities before, if her motive was the cold pursuit of power.



Frost giants. Going to die. Three crew members responsible for defending the deck were literally all killed
in one swing of an axe? You think this normal for the Mechane?

OK, could you please stop it with the victim blaming for five seconds? Andi is an adult, and, indeed, has been driving home her seniority at every opportunity. She can be held responsible for her own actions. I'm not saying she's evil. I'd just like you to admit that she has moral culpability. Also, Andi, by repeatedly insulting Bandanna and taking every opportunity to complain at her instead of doing her job, was engaging in clear insubordination. If Bandy got a little snappish with her over that, can you blame her? I mean, you're the one claiming that Andi was perfectly justified in hitting someone with a wrench because that person yelled at her. As everyone has said, all the non-Bandanna related reasons you're citing for Andi to be stressed vis-a-vis deaths and frost giants work equally well for Bandanna. Why does the "temporary insanity" defense work for one of them but not for the other?

[Douglas]

How do you know that? How would Bandi have known that?

Are you saying that there is literally nothing Bandi could have done to make Andi go down and repair stuff? That's convenient for Bandi.

By extrapolating from Andi's previous behavior and what I know of general human behavioral trends. Andi had consistently expressed an attitude utterly at odds with the idea of simply obeying something Bandana says, however loudly and emphatically shouted, giving at best superficial compliance on a matter of verbal labels.

When Andi displays a more conciliatory attitude after having her mistakes made indisputably clear by the reality of the consequences, Bandana immediately recognizes that change and resolves the situation with a) one calm order, and b) a silently implicit and non-threatening insistence on respect, and the instant Andi concedes the point Bandana moves on.

[woweedd]

Do you not think you were implying it was relevant by going on and on about it?



Obviously it was wrong. But I assume you are a reasonable person. Can you put your hand on your heart and say with 100% confidence that you would not have reacted bady if you were in Andi's shoes. You're going to die. Your captain's awful. And you remain cool and collected?




How do you know that? How would Bandi have known that?

Are you saying that there is literally nothing Bandi could have done to make Andi go down and repair stuff? That's convenient for Bandi.

How is Bandanna awful? She's not a perfectly functioning robot who always responds calmly and rationally, true. But that doesn't make her awful. It makes her a human being. She maybe didn't respond to the situation as calmly as she should have. But, given how stressful the situation is and Andi's clear unwillingness to respect her authority, I hardly blame her. It's a sin, but it's a minor sin. Unlike, say, assaulting a superior officer. As for how Bandi could have gotten her to get back to work...How about giving her an explicit command to do that? Which is, you know, what she did. She was in the middle of elaborating on that command when SOMEONE hit her over the head with a wrench.

[eggynack]

"You're going to get us all killed!" certainly Andi was angry that Bandi was getting to get them all killed. Let us assume that you are right and that she doesn't fear them all getting killed but it is solely anger. It is because of the Frost Giants that Bandi is going to get them all kiled. Thus the Frost Giants are relevant to the magnitude of her anger. Thus the Frost Giants are relevant.

If you would like to say that the Frost Giants are not relevant and merely their approaching death, then I can agree with that.

Except she didn't actually have a basis for thinking Bandana was going to get them killed. She was saying it for the same reason she was saying everything else. Because she wants to be in control, and Bandana was continuously taking said control. The frost giants were relevant to the extent that they created a context where a lot of control was happening in a short period of time.

[Lacuna Caster]

I propose this is all Julio Scoundrel's fault, for not remaining in command during the flight.

[Emperor Demonking]

OK, could you please stop it with the victim blaming for five seconds? Andi is an adult, and, indeed, has been driving home her seniority at every opportunity. She can be held responsible for her own actions. I'm not saying she's evil. I'd just like you to admit that she has moral culpability. Also, Andi, by repeatedly insulting Bandanna and taking every opportunity to complain at her instead of doing her job, was engaging in clear insubordination. If Bandy got a little snappish with her over that, can you blame her?

She wasn't a little snappish. She got in Andi's face and started a physical confrontation. But are you not the one victim blaming since "Bandi is an adult"

I mean, you're the one claiming that Andi was perfectly justified in hitting someone with a wrench because that person yelled at her.

No I haven't. I have never refered to Andi being justified. People have often said that Bandi is justified for her bellowing, but I have never claimed Andi is justified for the auto-wrenching.

As everyone has said, all the non-Bandanna related reasons you're citing for Andi to be stressed vis-a-vis deaths and frost giants work equally well for Bandanna. Why does the "temporary insanity" defense work for one of them but not for the other?

If you would like to claim that Bandi's actions were unacceptable but were motivated by the stress of the situation, then I am happy to consider that claim.

By extrapolating from Andi's previous behavior and what I know of general human behavioral trends. Andi had consistently expressed an attitude utterly at odds with the idea of simply obeying something Bandana says, however loudly and emphatically shouted, giving at best superficial compliance on a matter of verbal labels.

When Andi displays a more conciliatory attitude after having her mistakes made indisputably clear by the reality of the consequences, Bandana immediately recognizes that change and resolves the situation with a) one calm order, and b) a silently implicit and non-threatening insistence on respect, and the instant Andi concedes the point Bandana moves on.

In no point in the comic is Andi ever simply given an order and have it been disobeyed (save for the 'calm' thing I mentioned earlier. Even when the order is the rude "Oh, simmer down... get this ship moving" the ship gets moving. Why did Bandi not try giving an order in one of the numerous times she spoke to Andi before screaming at her. Even if it didn't work why not give it a punt? Is it not wrong to immediately go for a physical confrontation without even trying the obvious and more reasonable method.

[woweedd]

I propose this is all Julio Scoundrel's fault, for not remaining in command during the flight.

This is Elan's story now. He knows what faith is probably gonna be in store for him if he sticks around. The Obi-Wan special, if you catch my drift. He may have been able to dodge story logic once, but I doubt he wants to push his luck. As for why he didn't pull Andi aside and try and deal with her issues with Bandy ahead of time, there are two possible answers:
1. He didn't know about their issues.
2. He knew but it would "make for a better story."

[Emperor Demonking]

How is Bandanna awful?

She annoyed me when I was doing my trig homework when she was nine. At least try to put yourself in Andi's shoes before condeming her.

She's not a perfectly functioning robot who always responds calmly and rationally, true. But that doesn't make her awful. It makes her a human being. She maybe didn't respond to the situation as calmly as she should have. But, given how stressful the situation is and Andi's clear unwillingness to respect her authority, I hardly blame her. It's a sin, but it's a minor sin. Unlike, say, assaulting a superior officer. As for how Bandi could have gotten her to get back to work...How about giving her an explicit command to do that? Which is, you know, what she did.

Do you pay attention do the exact words people bellow in your face while leaning over you?

Except she didn't actually have a basis for thinking Bandana was going to get them killed. She was saying it for the same reason she was saying everything else. Because she wants to be in control, and Bandana was continuously taking said control. The frost giants were relevant to the extent that they created a context where a lot of control was happening in a short period of time.

The corspses. The damage on the ship ("but she's the engineer there's only what half-a-dozen frost giants who can reach. The cheif engineer ought to kiss it all better"). None of that provides the slightest basis that they might die?

If her only motive was a long-standing desire to be in control then why did she run up on deck only once they were half-way through the pass. I would argue that that is when the level of damage had become untenable. You explanation is?

[woweedd]

She wasn't a little snappish. She got in Andi's face and started a physical confrontation. But are you not the one victim blaming since "Bandi is an adult"



No I haven't. I have never refered to Andi being justified. People have often said that Bandi is justified for her bellowing, but I have never claimed Andi is justified for the auto-wrenching.



If you would like to claim that Bandi's actions were unacceptable but were motivated by the stress of the situation, then I am happy to consider that claim.



In no point in the comic is Andi ever simply given an order and have it been disobeyed (save for the 'calm' thing I mentioned earlier. Even when the order is the rude "Oh, simmer down... get this ship moving" the ship gets moving. Why did Bandi not try giving an order in one of the numerous times she spoke to Andi before screaming at her. Even if it didn't work why not give it a punt? Is it not wrong to immediately go for a physical confrontation without even trying the obvious and more reasonable method.

Not "unacceptable", per say, but not the best choice she could have made. That was a mistake on her part, as was not taking Andi aside and trying to deal with her obvious resentment. Andi's response, however, was NOT understandable. And the fact that you considered Bandy to be *gasp* responsible for her own actions, but not Andi, probably indicates a biased reading on your part.

[Draconi Redfir]

If your boss is right there and talking to you, I think there's a fair argument that continuing to speak to your boss is your job.

exept Bandana was not talking to Andi. Andi was the one talking to Bandana. Bandana would have been perfectly fine not talking to Andi and leading the team through the pass.

[Cazero]

She annoyed me when I was doing my trig homework when she was nine. At least try to put yourself in Andi's shoes before condeming her.

...According to your insane troll logic, I should track down and murder the **** out of the guy who annoyed me enough in elementary school for me to snap out and hit him in the head with a broom.

[woweedd]

She annoyed me when I was doing my trig homework when she was nine. At least try to put yourself in Andi's shoes before condeming her.



Do you pay attention do the exact words people bellow in your face while leaning over you?




The corspses. The damage on the ship ("but she's the engineer there's only what half-a-dozen frost giants who can reach. The cheif engineer ought to kiss it all better"). None of that provides the slightest basis that they might die?

If her only motive was a long-standing desire to be in control then why did she run up on deck only once they were half-way through the pass. I would argue that that is when the level of damage had become untenable. You explanation is?

Yeah, i'm putting myself in Andi's shoes and her response still makes no sense. That was years ago. About 20 of them, by my count. Not to get too personal here but i've gotten angry before at people, yelling, stomping, angry but A. I never HIT them and B. I was 14 and had a bunch of raging hormones and anger issues severe enough that i'm currently on medication for them. Andi appears to, herself, be suffering from some major arrested development. She's still the same resentful petty teenager she was years ago. Secondly, she can voice her complaints all she wants. Bandy has already explained her reasons earlier in the conversation and even listened to Andi's suggestions which, frankly, is probably more then Andi deserved. Unless Andi has any relevant information to offer, her job is then to listen to her Captain's instructions and get back to work.

[Emperor Demonking]

...According to your insane troll logic, I should track down and murder the **** out of the guy who annoyed me enough in elementary school for me to snap out and hit him in the head with a broom.

That's simply not accurate. Please put doen in simple notation how your reductio works.

However, if you were on a failing airship and your captain was your elementary school bully then, although it seems childish, I can see why it would be such an aggrevator is such an exceptional situation.

Not "unacceptable", per say, but not the best choice she could have made. That was a mistake on her part, as was not taking Andi aside and trying to deal with her obvious resentment. Andi's response, however, was NOT understandable. And the fact that you considered Bandy to be *gasp* responsible for her own actions, but not Andi, probably indicates a biased reading on your part.

The time period between Andi coming up deck and Bandi screaming out her is a lot longer than the time between Andi going to hit Bandi and the belllowing. One can be viewed as a reaction to a catalyst in a turmoltous sutuation. One cannot.

I am willing to give Andi responsibility for most of her actions. Most of her actions were taken with the same stressors Bandi was under (obviously with differences in the engineer-department). ne of them was taken immediately after being bellowed at and leaned over.

[Frosthead]

Except she didn't actually have a basis for thinking Bandana was going to get them killed. She was saying it for the same reason she was saying everything else. Because she wants to be in control, and Bandana was continuously taking said control. The frost giants were relevant to the extent that they created a context where a lot of control was happening in a short period of time.

My impression was that Andi's problem was less about not being in control, and more about BANDANA being in control. Andi always hated taking orders from someone she used to babysit, but acted somewhat obedient when there was no significant danger around her. That act waned away rather rapidly when the frost giants showed up and proved themselves to be dangerous.
Just like characters such as Vaarsuvius and Tarquin, when faced with a difficult situation with unpleasant choices, she eventually showed what mattered to her the most. By wrenching Bandana on the skull and taking control herself.

[Emperor Demonking]

exept Bandana was not talking to Andi. Andi was the one talking to Bandana. Bandana would have been perfectly fine not talking to Andi and leading the team through the pass.

Bandi has absolutely been talking to Andi. It is not simply Andi talking at Bandi. Indeed before the screaming, Bandi had the last word between the two of them.