Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[woweedd]

That's simply not accurate. Please put doen in simple notation how your reductio works.

However, if you were on a failing airship and your captain was your elementary school bully then, although it seems childish, I can see why it would be such an aggrevator is such an exceptional situation.



The time period between Andi coming up deck and Bandi screaming out her is a lot longer than the time between Andi going to hit Bandi and the belllowing. One can be viewed as a reaction to a catalyst in a turmoltous sutuation. One cannot.

I am willing to give Andi responsibility for most of her actions. Most of her actions were taken with the same stressors Bandi was under (obviously with differences in the engineer-department). ne of them was taken immediately after being bellowed at and leaned over.

First of all, SEEMS childish? Man, it IS childish, on Andi's part. Also, the longer period of time actually ADDS to the argument that Bandy was the more reasonable one, as she was willing to indulge Andi's complaints and questions and only snapped once Andi continued to insult her and generally be insubordinate.

[hamishspence]

Do you pay attention do the exact words people bellow in your face while leaning over you?

Apparently the fact that the exact words were untruths (or exaggerations, or hyperbole)

No Bandanna made her tenmporarily violently insane by screaming untruths in her face after Andi had seen three people die.

was enough to have "made her temporarily violently insane" - that suggests that quite close attention was paid.

The hit to Andi's ego - the mere overtone of "You're a bad engineer for not doing what you should have been doing", so to speak - was it.


Andi has a huge ego, has shown it in the past - and when it's struck directly, it's the last straw for her, from her own perspective.

[woweedd]

Bandi has absolutely been talking to Andi. It is not simply Andi talking at Bandi. Indeed before the screaming, Bandi had the last word between the two of them.

Umm..No. No, she didn't. Andi was in the middle of insulting Bandanna when Bandy snapped at her.

[Emperor Demonking]

First of all, SEEMS childish? Man, it IS childish, on Andi's part. Also, the longer period of time actually ADDS to the argument that Bandy was the more reasonable one, as she was willing to indulge Andi's complaints and questions and only snapped once Andi continued to insult her and generally be insubordinate.

Pretending to tolerate something only to then snap is bad. That is even morte true when you are the captain and can simply deal with the annoyance unilaterally (even if that means delegating somebody else to deal with Andi).

Umm..No. No, she didn't. Andi was in the middle of insulting Bandanna when Bandy snapped at her.

Andi was talking to the helmsman.

Apparently the fact that the exact words were untruths (or exaggerations, or hyperbole)

was enough to have "made her temporarily violently insane" - that suggests that quite close attention was paid.

The post in question also mentions screaming and in her face. How can you justify claiming that I was claiming that "the exact words were untruths (or exaggerations, or hyperbole) was enough" when I also mention - in the very thing you quote (from half a dozen pages ago) - screaming in her face after she saw three people die.

Indeed the position that I have made more clear recently is that the exact words being screamed weren't so important.

[Cazero]

That's simply not accurate. Please put doen in simple notation how your reductio works.

Okay.

I was specificaly answering to your reference of Bandana disturbing Andi while doing her homework, making her lashing out 15 years after the fact.

When I was 10 years old, I physicaly lashed out at a boy my age. I hit him in the ear. There was blood. In retrospect, I could have killed him.
Instead of hitting the guy on the head with a broom that day, I could have kept my grudge within me and waited to be a functional adult legally and emotionaly responsible for my actions so I could hit him a lot harder for childish reasons. Like Andi did.

[eggynack]

My impression was that Andi's problem was less about not being in control, and more about BANDANA being in control. Andi always hated taking orders from someone she used to babysit, but acted somewhat obedient when there was no significant danger around her. That act waned away rather rapidly when the frost giants showed up and proved themselves to be dangerous.
Just like characters such as Vaarsuvius and Tarquin, when faced with a difficult situation with unpleasant choices, she eventually showed what mattered to her the most. By wrenching Bandana on the skull and taking control herself.

Yeah, it's some sort of combination of the two. The best way of putting it is that Bandana stole the job from Andi, from Andi's perspective.

Edit:

The corspses. The damage on the ship ("but she's the engineer there's only what half-a-dozen frost giants who can reach. The cheif engineer ought to kiss it all better"). None of that provides the slightest basis that they might die?

I didn't say there wasn't rational basis for concern. I'm saying Andi, given that all of her issues were specifically surrounding the fact that Bandana was leader, wasn't concerned on that basis.

If her only motive was a long-standing desire to be in control then why did she run up on deck only once they were half-way through the pass. I would argue that that is when the level of damage had become untenable. You explanation is?

Because that's the only context in which Bandana's leadership could be criticized to any meaningful extent. Andi is more than willing to insult and attack Bandana for arbitrary stuff when things aren't serious, but relatively calm situations won't necessarily pull her away from an engine to do it.

[hamishspence]

Andi was talking to the helmsman.

About Bandana.

[Emperor Demonking]

Okay.

I was specificaly answering to your reference of Bandana disturbing Andi while doing her homework, making her lashing out 15 years after the fact.

When I was 10 years old, I physicaly lashed out at a boy my age. I hit him in the ear. There was blood. In retrospect, I could have killed him.
Instead of hitting the guy on the head with a broom that day, I could have kept my grudge within me and waited to be a functional adult legally and emotionaly responsible for my actions so I could hit him a lot harder for childish reasons. Like Andi did.

Do you not think that if you hunted down and attacked the annoying king (now man) is more understandable than if you hunted down and attacked a random guy. (Still mad either way what with the hunting down) but you don't think the "why?" is a little stronger in the second case.

Your claiming that hunting somebody down is "Like Andi did" simply bears no relation with the actual comic.

About Bandana.

Sure but that's not relevant to W's no about how Bandi had spoken to Andi more recently than Andi had spoken to Bandi.

[woweedd]

Pretending to tolerate something only to then snap is bad. That is even morte true when you are the captain and can simply deal with the annoyance unilaterally (even if that means delegating somebody else to deal with Andi).



Andi was talking to the helmsman.



The post in question also mentions screaming and in her face. How can you justify claiming that I was claiming that "the exact words were untruths (or exaggerations, or hyperbole) was enough" when I also mention - in the very thing you quote (from half a dozen pages ago) - screaming in her face after she saw three people die.

Indeed the position that I have made more clear recently is that the exact words being screamed weren't so important.

No, no it isn't. Being able to be patient with Andi, even when Andi is annoying her, does not make Bandanna bad. It makes her a FREAKING ADULT. Anyone's patience has its limits and Andi managed to reach hers. The fact that she snapped is a flaw on her part, but Andi's response was in no way justified.

As for delegating, Andi is, again, an adult. A high-ranking one, at that. Bandanna should not have to yank another crewmember away from their job in order to babysit Andi. She should be able to obey the Captain's orders.

[eggynack]

About Bandana.

In Bandana's direct and obvious vicinity. It's actually worse that Andi was pulling another person into this insult-fest.

[woweedd]

Do you not think that if you hunted down and attacked the annoying king (now man) is more understandable than if you hunted down and attacked a random guy. (Still mad either way what with the hunting down) but you don't think the "why?" is a little stronger in the second case.

Your claiming that hunting somebody down is "Like Andi did" simply bears no relation with the actual comic.



Sure but that's not relevant to W's no about how Bandi had spoken to Andi more recently than Andi had spoken to Bandi.

The irony of you getting on someone else's case for using an un-fitting analogy is astounding.

[hamishspence]

In Bandana's direct and obvious vicinity. It's actually worse that Andi was pulling another person into this insult-fest.

Yup - making the insubordination cross the line into outright public sedition.

[Emperor Demonking]

No, no it isn't. Being able to be patient with Andi, even when Andi is annoying her, does not make Bandanna bad. It makes her a FREAKING ADULT. Anyone's patience has its limits and Andi managed to reach hers. The fact that she snapped is a flaw on her part, but Andi's response was in no way justified.

She wasn't actually patient with her. She bellowed in her face. Nobody has said andi's "response" was justified.

Why is Bandi allowed to snap and have it be dismissed as a mere "flaw" and Andi is not?

As for delegating, Andi is, again, an adult. A high-ranking one, at that. Bandanna should not have to yank another crewmember away from their job in order to babysit Andi. She should be able to obey the Captain's orders.

What order did she not obey before the bellowing?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Do you not think you were implying it was relevant by going on and on about it?

I was "going on and on about it" because you continued discussing it. If you didn't want me to reply to you, or thought we should have dropped the topic owing to its irrelevance, you could have said so.

Obviously it was wrong. But I assume you are a reasonable person. Can you put your hand on your heart and say with 100% confidence that you would not have reacted bady if you were in Andi's shoes. You're going to die. Your captain's awful. And you remain cool and collected?

To start with, where I in Andi's shoes I would not have view Bandana as "awful" nor would I continually insult her. But, I can put my hand on my heart and say with 100% confidence that would not lash out physically. If you consider also shouting as reacting "badly", then sure I'll react "badly", but I don't consider shouting back at someone anywhere on the same level as braining them from behind with a wrench in a moment of rage.

[Kish]

"Andi's shoes" apparently include being an egomaniac, is the thing.

(Of course, that makes the argument tautological: Given that you don't respect the person who dared to lean toward you as she yelled at you to do your job, and you're mortally offended that she'd give orders to you, and your reaction to these factors is violent assault, will you violently assault her? Only one possible answer to that, it's already encoded in the sentence!)

[Keltest]

She wasn't actually patient with her. She bellowed in her face. Nobody has said andi's "response" was justified.

Why is Bandi allowed to snap and have it be dismissed as a mere "flaw" and Andi is not?


What order did she not obey before the bellowing?

You seem to have a tragic misunderstanding of the relationship between Andi and Bandana. Bandana is not Andi's friend, acting unreasonably towards the legitimate concerns of a person they claim to care about, Bandana is Andi's boss, and is if anything acting remarkably restrained towards somebody who is actively in the process of dereliction of duty, insubordination and possibly mutiny.

[woweedd]

She wasn't actually patient with her. She bellowed in her face. Nobody has said andi's "response" was justified.

Why is Bandi allowed to snap and have it be dismissed as a mere "flaw" and Andi is not?


What order did she not obey before the bellowing?

Because Bandanna's snapping didn't involve knocking anyone unconscious?

As for the insubordination, i'll admit I phrased that badly. Theoretically, Andi is supposed to remain at her post until told otherwise. She left her post to confront Bandanna about her decision to stay down the pass instead of avoiding the giants. Bandanna then explained herself and gave a compromise solution. Andi then continued to object, at which point Bandanna told her that she wasn't going to get what she wanted. At this point, And I should have returned to her post and stopped her attempts to dispute a superior officer. My point still stands: Andi is an adult and Bandanna should not have to appoint someone to babysit her. They both made mistakes here, i'll cope to that, but Andi's was far more serve.

[eggynack]

She wasn't actually patient with her. She bellowed in her face. Nobody has said andi's "response" was justified.

That was approximately her 5-10th reaction to this issue, depending on how you count the occurrences. The other reactions were all totally calm. That's patience.

Why is Bandi allowed to snap and have it be dismissed as a mere "flaw" and Andi is not?

Well, straightforwardly, because Bandana's "snap" was a single panel of kinda aggressive yelling, while Andi's was hitting someone with a wrench. And Bandana never really did anything to Andi to provoke all the insults, so Andi, before the yelling, was "snapping" in response to nothing. Which is the precise opposite of patience.

What order did she not obey before the bellowing?

Captain Bandana. Panel 2.

[Emperor Demonking]

You seem to have a tragic misunderstanding of the relationship between Andi and Bandana. Bandana is not Andi's friend, acting unreasonably towards the legitimate concerns of a person they claim to care about, Bandana is Andi's boss, and is if anything acting remarkably restrained towards somebody who is actively in the process of dereliction of duty, insubordination and possibly mutiny.

It is your boss who has especial duty not to create a physical confrontation. If they were freinds or equals then perhanps Bandies action would be more understandable.

As for the insubordination, i'll admit I phrased that badly. Theoretically, Andi is supposed to remain at her post until told otherwise. She left her post to confront Bandanna about her decision to stay down the pass instead of avoiding the giants. Bandanna then explained herself and gave a compromise solution. Andi then continued to object, at which point Bandanna told her that she wasn't going to get what she wanted. At this point, And I should have returned to her post and stopped her attempts to dispute a superior officer. My point still stands: Andi is an adult and Bandanna should not have to appoint someone to babysit her. They both made mistakes here, i'll cope to that, but Andi's was far more serve.

We don't know if Andi needed somebody to babysit her. I take the view that she didn't that if given orders they would have been followed.

Of course, that makes the argument tautological: Given that you don't respect the person who dared to lean toward you as she yelled at you to do your job, and you're mortally offended that she'd give orders to you, and your reaction to these factors is violent assault, will you violently assault her? Only one possible answer to that, it's already encoded in the sentence!

If anyting I said could be construed as saying "and your reaction to these factors is violent assault, will you violently assault her?" you'd be right. However, nothing I said could be construed that way. sSo you are wrong. Again.

I was "going on and on about it" because you continued discussing it. If you didn't want me to reply to you, or thought we should have dropped the topic owing to its irrelevance, you could have said so.

How am I to know that you considered it irrelevant and were merely falsely (as the clear definition I provided proved) claiming that I was saying untruths just for your own amusement. Do you expect me to read all your posts looking for a secret motive?

The irony of you getting on someone else's case for using an un-fitting analogy is astounding.

My though expirements did not include the phrase implicitly or explictly "Like Andi/Bandi". I dealt in full and fair consideration of the scenario presented until it got to the "Like Andi did" which is a statement about the events of the comc, and an inaccurate one.

[eggynack]

It is your boss who has especial duty not to create a physical confrontation. If they were freinds or equals then perhanps Bandies action would be more understandable.

Bandana didn't create a physical confrontation. She continued a verbal confrontation. Andi created a physical confrontation. When she hit Bandana with a wrench.

[Emperor Demonking]

Bandana didn't create a physical confrontation. She continued a verbal confrontation. Andi created a physical confrontation. When she hit Bandana with a wrench.

Andi could not have created a physical confrontation when she hit Band with a wrench, as Bandi had already caused a physical confrontation when she forced Andi to lean back.

That was approximately her 5-10th reaction to this issue, depending on how you count the occurrences. The other reactions were all totally calm. That's patience.

Well, straightforwardly, because Bandana's "snap" was a single panel of kinda aggressive yelling, while Andi's was hitting someone with a wrench. And Bandana never really did anything to Andi to provoke all the insults, so Andi, before the yelling, was "snapping" in response to nothing. Which is the precise opposite of patience.

Three people had just died because of Bandi wanting to help the Order. It seems a stretch to call that nothing. Andi was snappng based on the fact that Bandi had lad them to their deaths. That's nothing.

Captain Bandana. Panel 2.

Its a stretch to call than order. Even if it were, it is a stretc t suggest that orgotting once in the middle of battle a quater-given order that she would refuse a direct order given then.

[woweedd]

It is your boss who has especial duty not to create a physical confrontation. If they were freinds or equals then perhanps Bandies action would be more understandable.



We don't know if Andi needed somebody to babysit her. I take the view that she didn't that if given orders they would have been followed.


[snip]

(Emphasis mine.)
Bandanna WAS giving her orders! She was in middle of suggesting specific things for Andi to fix when she go thit across the head by a wrench!

[Emperor Demonking]

(Emphasis mine.)
Bandanna WAS giving her orders! She was in middle of suggesting specific things for Andi to fix when she go thit across the head by a wrench!

After having made Andi temporarily insane. Why not try that first?

[hamishspence]

Andi was already insane (or at least, had some kind of disorder) - narcissism, megalomania, whatever you like. She just concealed it.

Her statements here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html

reveal as big an out-of-touchness with reality as Miko showed in 409:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html

[eggynack]

Andi could not have created a physical confrontation when she hit Band with a wrench, as Bandi had already caused a physical confrontation when she forced Andi to lean back.

Entering someone's physical space does not constitute causing a physical confrontation. It seems incredibly unlikely that Bandana would have touched Andi had Andi not leaned back. And there is no evidence to support the opposite position.

Three people had just died because of Bandi wanting to help the Order. It seems a stretch to call that nothing. Andi was snappng based on the fact that Bandi had lad them to their deaths. That's nothing.

That's the basis of precisely none of her criticism or insults, and it happened after several insults throughout her presence in the comic.

Its a stretch to call than order. Even if it were, it is a stretc t suggest that orgotting once in the middle of battle a quater-given order that she would refuse a direct order given then.

When your captain directly tells you to do something, that is what an order is. And it was not followed.

[woweedd]

After having made Andi temporarily insane. Why not try that first?

This again? Her insanity was anything but temporary.

[Emperor Demonking]

Entering someone's physical space does not constitute causing a physical confrontation. It seems incredibly unlikely that Bandana would have touched Andi had Andi not leaned back. And there is no evidence to support the opposite position.

If Andi has asserted her space by lightly touching Bandana so that she didn't continue to come forward as Andi came back would you call that escelatng to a physical confrontaton.? If you would then I simply canot agree with that.

Ths was not a verbal conrontation. Verbal refers to words. Bandi could simply have bellowed "Aaah" and the pertinent detals o the confrontation would be the same.

That's the basis of precisely none of her criticism or insults, and it happened after several insults throughout her presence in the comic.

And Bandi had also insulted Andi throught the comics too. (and again I hold the captain to a hgher standard, not merely the employees). However, the first insult "stubborn little brat" is directly related to the deaths as they would still be alive if Andi was listened to about not being a ferry-service.

When your captain directly tells you to do something, that is what an order is. And it was not followed.

"Captain Bandana" is an object, not "directly tell[ing] you to do something" and again even if it was a direct order - which it clearly was not - it stll happened numerous strips ago and forgetting somerthing told to you once in the middle of battle is not proof of an insubordinate personality.

EditL

This again? Her insanity was anything but temporary.

Why? Because she used her best judgement as captain? Because she kept Bandi from flopping about by tying her up? Because like the rest of the crew she didn't untie her? Because she doesn't like Bandi (I guess we might be supposed to view this as proof of a disturbed mind)? What?

[hamishspence]

And Bandi had also insulted Andi throught the comics too.

"Don't get your knickers in a twist" is not an insult - just a remark that qualifies as somewhat dismissive.

I've been told that many times when I've gotten a bit angry or excited - and I accept it as a more flowery version of "please calm down".

[eggynack]

If Andi has asserted her space by lightly touching Bandana so that she didn't continue to come forward as Andi came back would you call that escelatng to a physical confrontaton.? If you would then I simply canot agree with that.

Probably not, no. Physical contact is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition to constitute the initiation of a physical confrontation.

Ths was not a verbal conrontation. Verbal refers to words. Bandi could simply have bellowed "Aaah" and the pertinent detals o the confrontation would be the same.

Bandana didn't touch Andi. Thus, there was not really anything besides words.

And Bandi had also insulted Andi throught the comics too.

You got a citation?

However, the first insult "stubborn little brat" is directly related to the deaths as they would still be alive if Andi was listened to about not being a ferry-service.

Not accurate. That insult was exactly directed towards Bandana not listening to Andi regarding the plan she came up with in the preceding comic.

"Captain Bandana" is an object, not "directly tell[ing] you to do something"

It was a correction. The statement, "Make said correction," is semantically implicit. This is some particularly bad pedantry right here.

and again even if it was a direct order - which it clearly was not - it stll happened numerous strips ago and forgetting somerthing told to you once in the middle of battle is not proof of an insubordinate personality.

She didn't forget. It's explicitly stated later that Andi didn't think of Bandana as the captain. To quote, "You're not the captain!" "Well neither were you."

Why? Because she used her best judgement as captain? Because she kept Bandi from flopping about by tying her up? Because like the rest of the crew she didn't untie her? Because she doesn't like Bandi (I guess we might be supposed to view this as proof of a disturbed mind)? What?

Maybe because she hit her commanding officer with a wrench over essentially nothing, and then took a series of actions consistent with that being an intentional or at least desired choice afterwards?

[Vinyadan]

The mutiny strip itself

Panel 7: Bandana tries to go back to doing her job, including giving Andi a specific order, should someone suggest that the chief engineer reasonably needs exact orders from the captain. Andi bares her teeth in incandescent rage.
Panel 8: Andi hits Bandana on the back of her head with a wrench.

i wanted to make another Cluedo image with "Who clenches her teeth with incandescent rage in preparation of murder", but then I ran out of breath.