Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[Vinyadan]

I see similitudes in fan reactions...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The deaths of the pirates happened a strip or two before. The screaming occured two panels before. The screaming is obviously more immediate. I don't see any room for debate there.

I agree, the second event does occur after the first event. However, since you said the following:

Hand on heart. You are going to die. You have seen people die. The person leading you to your death decided to get in your space to scream at you.

I felt that it should be pointed out that two of those apply to Bandana as well, and there's no good reason why the third should lift Andi's response into the physical.

I'm not saying what they did is on the same level of morality. I'm saying that if you were to get in the face of a random person during a crisis and screamed at them you would find yourself getting struck quite often. 'Fight or Flight' it's a thing.

That someone's flight or fight response to stress involves braining them in the head with a weapon is a sign of at the very least underlying anger issues that need treatment. Flight or fight involves a variety of potential responses, and that fact that Andi's is one of anger and then physical assault is very telling. Just because there's a rational physiological explanation for something doesn't excuse it away or somehow push the blame back onto Bandana. Andi clearly has her own underlying mental issues and they can't be excuses for her behavior.

And frankly, in the end, Andi's still the instigator here. Again, you could make a somewhat reasonable claim that Bandana could have behaved better here, but she's only responding to Andi's own insults and orders in a moment of crisis. That Bandana's response is raise her voice, while Andi's response is to brain her with a wrench is, again, pretty telling.

In sum, sure, Bandana's actions make Andi angry. But, that doesn't in the least make her actions automatic or okay. There are lots of ways Andi could have responded, and that she chose the worst one reflects poorly on her.

[Emperor Demonking]

At the risk of opening this can of worms further, which part of Andi's characterisation leads you to believe she's willing to go when Bandana says go?

What makes me think that she would not actively choose to commit mutiny? One, even after having knocked out Bandi, once Bandi had been freed she immediatey surrendered. If she ended her mutiny even after knocking out the captain and becoming the acting captain, then why would she start a mutiny while an innocent woman?

After her goaded mutiny she immediately ooks at her hands in shock. If she would choose to consciously mutiny then why the shock?

Even if she wouldn't have willingly gone, then Bandi coud simpy order somebody to take the mutineer down. Thus she would be gone. This is worth mentioning for completeness since I don't think she would mutiny, but it also demonstrates that there would be no reason to mutiny. She may automaticay hesitate, but she wouldn't choose to disobey.

Also, she had been disrespectful from a 100 strips ago, yet never once disobeyed an order. Should we not assume that she would keep up the habit of a lifetime.

I felt that it should be pointed out that two of those apply to Bandana as well, and there's no good reason why the third should lift Andi's response into the physical.

The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation - forcing Andi to lean back is obviously a physical confrontation; I don't think you'd claim that Andi's action was cool if Bandi had the periph awareness to duck - is a physical reaction.

People don't necessarily choose when in extreme anger, in extreme stress when extremely provoked. The courts recognise this.

[Draconi Redfir]

The immediate stressor that leads to the wrenching is the leabing over person screaming at her in her face. When does this happen to Bandi?

Pannel 3.

Non-consentual touching, DEMANDING that Bandana listen to her, next pannel, openly insulting her, next pannel, whining about everything that it's HER job to fix.

if you're going to go with the excuse of "Temporary insanity" then i'm going to use it to claim that Bandi got "Temporary insanity" to snap back at her.

[Kish]

Why exactly does Andi merit her act of violently assaulting her captain being described in such tortured, rationalizing language? "The immediate stressor that lead to the wrenching" already incorporates at least three unsupported and illogical assumptions in and of itself. If you were trying to make Bandana better than she is one-tenth as hard as you're trying to make Andi better than she is, you'd have established that if she died she'd zoom directly to the top of Celestia and the Good gods would start worshiping her by now.

[Cizak]

When did I make that first claim?

Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.

I mean, if you now want to say that you meant "physical assault is a reflex" all along, I'm totally fine with that. Both arguments are asinine and the reflex one even more so.

You're ignoring the corpses and frost giants. That's moronic. Your description of ther acts is obviously also ridiculous. (Bandi did not simply "raise her voice" and describing Andi as "trying to bash someone's brains in if given the chance" is absurd.)

*The point*



*Your head*

[Vinyadan]

Pannel 3.

Non-consentual touching, DEMANDING that Bandana listen to her, next pannel, openly insulting her, next pannel, whining about everything that it's HER job to fix.

if you're going to go with the excuse of "Temporary insanity" then i'm going to use it to claim that Bandi got "Temporary insanity" to snap back at her.

Notice that insistent repetition of a question or complaint in written or spoken form already represents mutiny.

[Emperor Demonking]

Pannel 3.

Non-consentual touching, DEMANDING that Bandana listen to her, next pannel, openly insulting her, next pannel, whining about everything that it's HER job to fix.

if you're going to go with the excuse of "Temporary insanity" then i'm going to use it to claim that Bandi got "Temporary insanity" to snap back at her.

She didn't demand Bandi listen to her. She asked Bandi to listen to her. Touching her sleeve can also not compare to physically leaning over her.

Going on a very rant takes far longer and requires far more agency than swinging a wrench.

" Why exactly does Andi merit her act of violently assaulting her captain being described in such tortured, rationalizing language? "The immediate stressor that lead to the wrenching" already incorporates at least three unsupported and illogical assumptions in and of itself. If you were trying to make Bandana better than she is one-tenth as hard as you're trying to make Andi better than she is, you'd have established that if she died she'd zoom directly to the top of Celestia and the Good gods would start worshiping her by now. "

So Andi is so evil that she is ten times as far from neutral as Bandi is the greatest of good. I don't know what comic you're reading... etc.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation - forcing Andi to lean back is obviously a physical confrontation; I don't think you'd claim that Andi's action was cool if Bandi had the periph awareness to duck - is a physical reaction.

People don't necessarily choose when in extreme anger, in extreme stress when extremely provoked. The courts recognise this.

There's no evidence that Bandana would have hit Andi even if she hadn't lean back; given that the art shows very little movement from Andi its more likely she leans back became Bandana is close, not because she's about to hit her. And even then, that's clearly not the stressor that Andi reacts to. She gets angry, not scared or threatened, and it's from what Bandana says.

Yeah, but crimes of passion are still crimes.

[Kish]

Anyone who tried to use a "crime of passion" defense for hitting someone over the head, tying them up, and gloating about having hit them over the head would be laughed out of court.

You continue to use tortured, rationalizing language: instead of the obviously-absurd "hitting someone over the head with a wrench is the obvious response to them leaning toward you," it's the functionally-identical but masked with euphemisms "The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation (weird-ass non sequitur about Andi's assault of Bandana) is a physical reaction." And I ask again: Why? Why do you so badly want what's in the comic not to be?

[Emperor Demonking]

[QUOTE=Jaxzan Proditor;22106037]There's no evidence that Bandana would have hit Andi even if she hadn't lean back; given that the art shows very little movement from Andi its more likely she leans back became Bandana is close, not because she's about to hit her. [quote]

Visually unlean Andi. Her head shares space with Bandi. Andi is physically forced to move (or literally lock heads with the captain I suppose) its physical.

And even then, that's clearly not the stressor that Andi reacts to. She gets angry, not scared or threatened, and it's from what Bandana says.

People can react to more than one thinm and things can complement one another. The idea that she goes from being scared before 62 to being scared after 62 yet in 62 you can condidently say fear could not have played an ounce of a part does not seem reasonabe to me. With comments like "don't get your knickers twisted" Bandana had been merey verbally rude to Andi before, but not a hint of wrench-smashing had been seen on Andi's part so that obviouslyu can't hold the wholer story.

And indeed Andi had verbally insulted her captain before. So, I'm happy to concede that Bandi coud not have been provoked by Andi's behaviour to engage in her physical eaning.

Yeah, but crimes of passion are still crimes.

But we don't call the commmittors pure evil either.

I mean, if you now want to say that you meant "physical assault is a reflex" all along, I'm totally fine with that. Both arguments are asinine and the reflex one even more so.



*The point*



*Your head*

What was your genius point about neglecting to mention the frost giants that I missed.

[Peelee]

Welp, I'm convinced. Clearly, Andi should still be the captain.

[Emperor Demonking]

Anyone who tried to use a "crime of passion" defense for hitting someone over the head, tying them up, and gloating about having hit them over the head would be laughed out of court.

You continue to use tortured, rationalizing language: instead of the obviously-absurd "hitting someone over the head with a wrench is the obvious response to them leaning toward you," it's the functionally-identical but masked with euphemisms "The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation (weird-ass non sequitur about Andi's assault of Bandana) is a physical reaction." And I ask again: Why? Why do you so badly want what's in the comic not to be?

Jaxzon used the word physical I was using his language. I also think it is a good thing to strip unnecessary particulars when speaking and seperating examples from the general point. For example obviously ""hitting someone over the head with a wrench is the obvious response to them leaning [over] you," simply most people being leant over don't have their dominant hand filed with a wrench.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Visually unlean Andi. Her head shares space with Bandi. Andi is physically forced to move (or literally lock heads with the captain I suppose) its physical.

To me, it appears that as Bandana moves closer, Andi moves back. Sure, if Bandana moves all the way and Andi doesn't they'd but heads, but Bandana would have stopped moving forwards before then. She's certainly getting in her face, but she's not risking a collision.

People can react to more than one thinm and things can complement one another. The idea that she goes from being scared before 62 to being scared after 62 yet in 62 you can condidently say fear could not have played an ounce of a part does not seem reasonabe to me.

Her being angry is clearly the primary motivator. Even if we accept that Bandana is being physical (and I don't), the fact that she doesn't actually react physically until after Bandana turns away shows that she's not reacting to Bandana's own physicality; or else she would lash out when Bandana moves closer to her. And I don't see what Bandana does as escalating the conflict far enough as to make Andi think that their argument has become physical, so it don't see it as either reasonable from Andi, or initiated by Bandana.

But we don't call the commmittors pure evil either.

Perhaps you don't. I think you'll find that most people do.

[An Enemy Spy]

It's pretty telling that the only way you can try to justify Andi's actions is to strip away her agency. Not to mention incredibly desperate. Her hand may be filled with a wrench but yours is filled with straws. As in the expression 'grasping at straws. Please don't make me have to explain that one.

[Emperor Demonking]

To me, it appears that as Bandana moves closer, Andi moves back. Sure, if Bandana moves all the way and Andi doesn't they'd but heads, but Bandana would have stopped moving forwards before then. She's certainly getting in her face, but she's not risking a collision.

Its a physical game of chicken instigated by Bandana. Its a physical confrontation.

Her being angry is clearly the primary motivator. Even if we accept that Bandana is being physical (and I don't), the fact that she doesn't actually react physically until after Bandana turns away shows that she's not reacting to Bandana's own physicality; or else she would lash out when Bandana moves closer to her. And I don't see what Bandana does as escalating the conflict far enough as to make Andi think that their argument has become physical, so it don't see it as either reasonable from Andi, or initiated by Bandana.

Bandana turns away as soon as she allows Andi to stand back up. (That by itself seems to make it obviously physical to me). The wrenching of Bandi is not a choice by Andi but a reaction to Bandi acting in a physical and frightening manner in a situation where Andi had every right to be frightened quite possibly mixed in with general resentment etc.

If the screaming did not lead to the striking, then why was the screaming placed in the story at all?

Perhaps you don't. I think you'll find that most people do.

Yet we let it is a defense in criminal court. Really?

It's pretty telling that the only way you can try to justify Andi's actions is to strip away her agency. Not to mention incredibly desperate. Her hand may be filled with a wrench but yours is filled with straws. As in the expression 'grasping at straws. Please don't make me have to explain that one.

What have I made you explain before such that your comment is justified ("that one")?

And is it not more telling that you can only condem Andi by demanding more rationality and self-control then any human could excercise in the situation that she was in?

[oppyu]

Don't worry everyone, I have a take which is going to settle everything and not at all make things more heated.

Oh look, a white character insisting they know better than a character of colour and some people inexplicably agreeing with the white character despite all evidence to the contrary. Complete with insinuations the woman of colour was being abusive and irrational... angry, if you will.

[Kish]

You left out the "lesbian" part.

[Emperor Demonking]

Don't worry everyone, I have a take which is going to settle everything and not at all make things more heated.

Oh look, a white character insisting they know better than a character of colour and some people inexplicably agreeing with the white character despite all evidence to the contrary. Complete with insinuations the woman of colour was being abusive and irrational... angry, if you will.

What side are you on in the Miko debate?

I also don't think I ever claimed that Bandi was irrational, nor angry.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Its a physical game of chicken instigated by Bandana. Its a physical confrontation.

Chicken requires the other person to move forward. Just because Andi backs up doesn't make it physical. You could view Bandana as intimidating here, but getting up in someone's face is still not an actual form of physical contact, especially when there's no evidence she even intends to initiate physical contact.

Bandana turns away as soon as she allows Andi to stand back up. (That by itself seems to make it obviously physical to me). The wrenching of Bandi is not a choice by Andi but a reaction to Bandi acting in a physical and frightening manner in a situation where Andi had every right to be frightened quite possibly mixed in with general resentment etc.

I don't see anywhere in the strip where Andi has to stand back up. It is very much a choice; no one is forcing Andi to do it but herself. Just because she is influenced by anger doesn't mean she somehow relinquishes all agency.

If the screaming did not lead to the striking, then why was the screaming placed in the story at all?

I'm not sure who you're responding to here, because I have said nothing of the sort.

Yet we let it is a defense in criminal court. Really?

I'm going to view some who commits first degree murder in the same light I view someone who commits second degree murder or voluntary manslaughter.

[Kish]

I'm not sure who you're responding to here, because I have said nothing of the sort.

It's a non-sequitur, in the purest sense: the fallacy of asserting, "X, therefore (unrelated) Y--either contest X, or concede Y!" Unless Andi's choice to assault Bandana had nothing at all to do with Bandana "screaming" at her, 1) the assault is somehow Bandana's fault rather than Andi's, and 2) the assault must have been for a valid reason and not because being ordered to do her job by someone she considered inferior hit Andi right in her oversized ego. The "Bandana yells at Andi" scene can only exist to justify Andi's assaulting Bandana; if that was not the case it wouldn't exist at all. Evidence which can, if you squint, say something bad about Bandana must do so; evidence which says something bad about Andi cannot exist.

[goodpeople25]

While I don't think it really holds up that much or necessarily agree with any underlying thoughts but on rereading the strips in question, in the time before the assault Andi almost seems to be touching/reaching for Bandanas shoulder a couple times(#1061 and #1062 panel 3) and if not I can still see an argument of getting in her personal space. Of course it's up to interpretation of the art and it supports Bandana, but hey it got me to look closer at the art so that's something.

[Emperor Demonking]

Chicken requires the other person to move forward. Just because Andi backs up doesn't make it physical. You could view Bandana as intimidating here, but getting up in someone's face is still not an actual form of physical contact, especially when there's no evidence she even intends to initiate physical contact.

If someone in the street punches you in the fae but stops as inch from your nose. Have they initiated physical confrontation? I would say absolutely. That's even more true when their fist is where your face used to be.

I don't see anywhere in the strip where Andi has to stand back up. It is very much a choice; no one is forcing Andi to do it but herself. Just because she is influenced by anger doesn't mean she somehow relinquishes all agency.

I don't think "Andi could have chosen to remain eaning backwards all her life" is a sensible rebuttal.

I'm not sure who you're responding to here, because I have said nothing of the sort.

Then I apalogise.

I'm going to view some who commits first degree murder in the same light I view someone who commits second degree murder or voluntary manslaughter.

If society agreed with you then they wouldn't be different crimes.

[Keltest]

If someone in the street punches you in the fae but stops as inch from your nose. Have they initiated physical confrontation? I would say absolutely. That's even more true when their fist is where your face used to be.

So now youre claiming that Bandana is trying to head-butt Andi? There is no legitimate reading of that scene where Bandana's actions are equivalent to (attempted) physical assault.

If society agreed with you then they wouldn't be different crimes.

How society feels and how certain legal terms are defined are not necessarily related.

[Peelee]

If someone in the street punches you in the fae but stops as inch from your nose. Have they initiated physical confrontation? I would say absolutely.

Since you're so fond of bringing up the legal system, you may like to know that a former US Supreme Court justice rather famously disagrees with you.

[Emperor Demonking]

So now youre claiming that Bandana is trying to head-butt Andi? There is no legitimate reading of that scene where Bandana's actions are equivalent to (attempted) physical assault.

I don't see how you could get that from what you quoted. Bandana used her physicaity to put Andi in a physically awkward situation. How is that not physical? I don't think I ever used the term "physical assault" and Bandana succeeded in what she intended to do.

How society feels and how certain legal terms are defined are not necessarily related.

From where do think the general thrust of the tariffs come into existance and gain legitimacy from?

Edit:
"Since you're so fond of bringing up the legal system, you may like to know that a former US Supreme Court justice rather famously disagrees with you. "

With all the former US Supreme Court justices that exist that seems like a pretty good record, but still an interesting fact.

[eggynack]

The underlying reality here is that Andi absolutely didn't just hit Bandana out of a moment of anger. If Andi didn't want to take over the ship, then she really didn't have to take over the ship to that extent. She could have not rescinded Bandana's order to continue down the pass, either not tied up Bandana or untied her when she woke up, and generally apologized for her moment of passion. Andi didn't do any of that. Because Andi was primarily pissed off by Bandana being captain in the first place, as was stated again and again in the comic. And, no, Andi giving up command when Bandana was backed by her entire crew is not evidence that she wasn't seeking out command.

[Kish]

If someone in the street punches you in the fae but stops as inch from your nose. Have they initiated physical confrontation? I would say absolutely.

Unimportant. Whether you like the fact that Bandana did not assault Andi, rather Andi assaulted Bandana, or not, it is a fact. This new hypothetical is no more related to anything under discussion than your earlier ones about homeless person/strange sadist or doctor/psychotic patient.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If someone in the street punches you in the fae but stops as inch from your nose. Have they initiated physical confrontation? I would say absolutely. That's even more true when their fist is where your face used to be.

Good thing that's not what happened in this situation then. Bandana isn't punching Andi, or anything of the sort. Again, getting in someone's face like that, while aggressive posturing, is not physical contact.

I don't think "Andi could have chosen to remain eaning backwards all her life" is a sensible rebuttal.

Again, don't make arguments about statements that aren't there. One might almost think you're arguing in bad faith.
You directly said:

The wrenching of Bandi is not a choice by Andi but a reaction to Bandi acting in a physical and frightening manner.

To which I responded:

It is very much a choice; no one is forcing Andi to do it but herself. Just because she is influenced by anger doesn't mean she somehow relinquishes all agency.

If society agreed with you then they wouldn't be different crimes.

Thats fair; I went a little too far in my statement. First degree is worse than second degree and so on, but they're still evil actions and the fact that they warrant different sentences doesn't make them functionally that different; one is only slightly worse than the other.

[Emperor Demonking]

The underlying reality here is that Andi absolutely didn't just hit Bandana out of a moment of anger. If Andi didn't want to take over the ship, then she really didn't have to take over the ship to that extent. She could have not rescinded Bandana's order to continue down the pass, either not tied up Bandana or untied her when she woke up, and generally apologized for her moment of passion. Andi didn't do any of that. Because Andi was primarily pissed off by Bandana being captain in the first place, as was stated again and again in the comic. And, no, Andi giving up command when Bandana was backed by her entire crew is not evidence that she wasn't seeking out command.

If the screaming did not lead to the striking. If the striking was a plot to take over the ship. Then why was the screaming placed in the story at all?

And obviously two wrongs don't make a right. Striking Bandana was wrong, but that doesn't mean Andi should have had them continue on the pass, allowed Bandana to fop around on deck, or immediately untie Bandana and confuse the chain of command.

No other member of the crew thought untying Bandana was a good idea either - until she made her monoogue - that's not crazy Andi, with her bittereness and lust for power.

Unimportant. Whether you like the fact that Bandana did not assault Andi, rather Andi assaulted Bandana, or not, it is a fact.

Just for you I decided to look up assault. Andi moved her body so that there was no physical contact between her and Bandi. If she had not then there would have been unwanted physical violence of an abnormal sort. That's common assault. That's just a fact.