El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Forum Explorer]

The worst part is not that people aren't making detailed reading of the spellbooks to try and parse the complex and cumbersome mystic legalese they are apparently written in, it's that many of the characters - including seemingly responsible people like Susan - aren't even checking them to the point of keeping up with whether they have new spells or not. That's really bad, since all it would probably take is five minutes a week to do.

There is this. Though in Susan's defense she was under the impression that you'd know you got a new spell automatically and it's implied that she did read the spellbook for her old spells.

[Lizard Lord]

There is also the fact that Susan has baggage with magic and was very unhappy with how she awakened. Susan didn't really want magic.

I suppose this could also explain, in part, Elliot. For a while he didn't like his spells, though I suppose liking them didn't actually increase his tendency to read his book. So I suppose it doesn't really explain Elliot. Bad example.

[Calemyr]

I admit I'm going to be mildly disappointed if the next page isn't just a montage of known mages looking at their spellbooks, each adding a word to the phrase "What in the actual hell is this?" Or something similar with a suitable number of words.

Assuming I read it correctly, that comment about Hermione wasn't about the spellbooks, it was about the mages. Not every mage can be as disciplined and studious as she is. It wouldn't make for a good story for us.

Their reactions to their books are pretty diverse. Elliot ignores his book in the hope that things won't change*. Nanase seems to take it seriously, but ends up using it as a metric for personal growth. Ellen revels in it, so she checks her book whenever she thinks something significant has happened. Susan studies her spells carefully, but mistakenly assumes she'd be notified when she learned a new spell.

*Since meeting the gryphons, and embracing the Chearleadra form, Elliot's attitude has changed. Now he wants to know about what that form can do and seems to keep up with his book. That said, he's still intellectually lazy and doesn't spend much time trying decode his book's obtuse wording, preferring to just shrug of what he doesn't immediately understand.

I'm not sure what the slimmer volume might entail. An Ikea Swedekea instruction booklet sounds like a perfect over-correction that retains the drama and surprise revelations about the features of their spells while encouraging them to know of their existence and basic applications. A Fight Club-esque comic with over-emoting stick figures would be fun to see, if Dan wanted to actually display it in comic (doing so previously would have been both boring and difficult to achieve).

A passive-aggressively simplistic rephrasing would also be fun:
"This spell grants you flight, superior strength and durability, and turns any tech you're wearing into super powers. Because Superman.
It also includes alter-ego transformations with built-in personalities because we all know you can't act. Like, at all.
It also turns you into a girl, natch, because I know you're into that kind of thing.
You're welcome."

[Fyraltari]

You put hand away from you. Beam goes flash. Man becomes woman.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"This spell grants you flight, superior strength and durability, and turns any tech you're wearing into super powers. Because Superman.
It also includes alter-ego transformations with built-in personalities because we all know you can't act. Like, at all.
It also turns you into a girl, natch, because I know you're into that kind of thing.
You're welcome."

"You put hand away from you. Beam goes flash. Man becomes woman."

"Ask Tedd."

[tyckspoon]

"Ask Tedd."

The entire spellbook has been replaced with a directory of social media contacts of Seers and a direction to contact them for further information.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The entire spellbook has been replaced with a directory of social media contacts of Seers and a direction to contact them for further information.

The book is now a tablet with access to macebook. Every seer now has an account there, whether they want to or not.

GW

[Mith]

The book is now a tablet with access to macebook. Every seer now has an account there, whether they want to or not.

GW

No good deed goes unpunished. Tedd has been volunteered to be IT support for the EGS magic community.

[John Campbell]

Guns and cars come with manuals. Ample experience with humanity tells me that, despite both being potentially death dealing machines, a vanishingly small amount of people read either's manuals.

Guns and cars both have fairly universal standardized user interfaces, and a significant number of people take actual classes in how to use them.

And for that matter, I do read my car's owner's manual when I want to know things like how the hell I set the frickin' clock so I don't have to keep adjusting for DST in my head, or what that obscure icon that's popped up on the dash display means, or how to reset the tire pressure warning sensor. But for the day-to-day stuff... wheel, pedals, gearshift, ignition... I've known since I was a small child, through observing other drivers, how these things work, and they've worked basically the same on every car I've driven.

If every car operated in a completely different fashion, and there weren't any driving classes because no one else could tell you how your particular car's controls worked, and cars were prone to spontaneously sprouting new hidden features like flight or laser-beam headlights that the only ways to discover were to read the manual or to accidentally trigger them while you were driving, you can bet that a lot more people would RTFM.

[Vinyadan]

You put hand away from you. Beam goes flash. Man becomes woman.

You put hand away from you. Beam goes flash. Man becomes woman.

You put your down, down - then thrust your pelvis - then thrust your pelvis - then thrust your pelvis

[Rater202]

So...Is this better or worse?

[John Cribati]

Some of us were right, it seems. Magic is being a right tosser about it, too.

[Douglas]

Some of us were right, it seems. Magic is being a right tosser about it, too.

I think Magic is genuinely trying to make the spellbooks useful, and just has no good perspective on what level of detail humans can understand. All it really knows is that Tedd said they're too hard, phrased in a manner and context that implied the difficulty was pretty extreme, and two other Seers heard it and acted as if this were simple common knowledge beyond all dispute.

So, it's got "this level of detail is too much" and "the margin is large", but no guidance on where an appropriate lower bound might be. It dropped the level of detail by a large margin, as is perfectly appropriate given that knowledge, and accidentally went too far. It really should have asked Tedd to clarify, maybe show him a few versions of Elliot's spellbook with various levels of detail and ask him to pick the best one, before ending the conference.

[Celestia]

So...Is this better or worse?

If it means characters will actually start reading their books occasionally, then surely better.

[Calemyr]

So...Is this better or worse?

Better, for dramatic reasons. Characters still don't fully grasp the tools at their disposal, leading to the same kinda dramatic moments as they try something risky and it pays off. Only this time, it will be because the spell descriptions are insufficient, not because they were too verbose to understand. This may seem a small thing, until you realize that the old spellbooks meant that mages needed to be stupid, hurried, disinterested, or intellectually lazy for this to happen. Works for Elliot, perhaps (who doesn't like to think when he isn't obligated to), but it makes Susan and Nanase look bad if it happens to them.

It also lets us as an audience know a little of what's going on. The old school descriptions would have been two difficult to write and would telegraph the surprises to anyone with a high dollar vocabulary or access to a dictionary. Now Dan isn't cheating when he's withholding details for drama's sake, there's an in-canon reason for it.

[Celestia]

Better, for dramatic reasons. Characters still don't fully grasp the tools at their disposal, leading to the same kinda dramatic moments as they try something risky and it pays off. Only this time, it will be because the spell descriptions are insufficient, not because they were too verbose to understand. This may seem a small thing, until you realize that the old spellbooks meant that mages needed to be stupid, hurried, disinterested, or intellectually lazy for this to happen. Works for Elliot, perhaps (who doesn't like to think when he isn't obligated to), but it makes Susan and Nanase look bad if it happens to them.

It also lets us as an audience know a little of what's going on. The old school descriptions would have been two difficult to write and would telegraph the surprises to anyone with a high dollar vocabulary or access to a dictionary. Now Dan isn't cheating when he's withholding details for drama's sake, there's an in-canon reason for it.

That's basically what I said. You just did it better.

[Mechalich]

Additionally, erring on the side of simplicity works better as magic becomes more and more prominent. While many of EGS core magic-using cast members have been lazy about it they generally represent smart, well-educated persons who are in a good position to puzzle things out and have robust institutions to rely upon rather than needing to turn to magic as a go-to solution most of the time. This is fundamentally not the case for most of the rest of the world. From the perspective of a barely literate rural villager in a developing nation - a simple spellbook represents at least a partial information resource, while the previous versions were completely useless. The old setup was elitist and this correction mitigates that issue.

[Fyraltari]

Additionally, erring on the side of simplicity works better as magic becomes more and more prominent. While many of EGS core magic-using cast members have been lazy about it they generally represent smart, well-educated persons who are in a good position to puzzle things out and have robust institutions to rely upon rather than needing to turn to magic as a go-to solution most of the time. This is fundamentally not the case for most of the rest of the world. From the perspective of a barely literate rural villager in a developing nation - a simple spellbook represents at least a partial information resource, while the previous versions were completely useless. The old setup was elitist and this correction mitigates that issue.

It doesn't solve it though. Assuming the rural villager in a developping nation can even read, they still need to have access to either a friendly immortal (essentially random) or "ye olde magic shoppe" to get a book.

So an uryuom with fire powers... Drat.

[Rater202]

So... Actually the Master of Fire from the Prophecy or just another sociopath who thinks he is?

[Celestia]

So an uryuom with fire powers... Drat.

That looks like a wand.

[Forum Explorer]

So... Actually the Master of Fire from the Prophecy or just another sociopath who thinks he is?

Or just a dude with fire powers?

Anyways, I'm now kinda hoping for some immortal prick to start messing with people (if Voltaire is successful) and to just suddenly get hammered by some ancient Uruoym archmage.

[Rater202]

Nah, remember, the Uryuom's have a Prophecy about a Master of Fire who will unite all of the Chimera.

Damion's whole thing is that he thought he was a God becuase he was created to fulfill the prophecy by fanatics who got tired of waiting.

And now we have an Uryuom with fire powers.

I'm thinking that that's gonna be making a comeback

[Forum Explorer]

Nah, remember, the Uryuom's have a Prophecy about a Master of Fire who will unite all of the Chimera.

Damion's whole thing is that he thought he was a God becuase he was created to fulfill the prophecy by fanatics who got tired of waiting.

And now we have an Uryuom with fire powers.

I'm thinking that that's gonna be making a comeback

It's possible. But it's equally possible that the guy is just thrilled to get magic back, particularly since we've just been dealing with a golem who wanted magic and hates that humans have it.

[Qwertystop]

It could be both. Even if the prophecy is accurate, it doesn't have to be intentional on the Uryuom's part. He could just be thrilled to have magic and still be the person it referred to.

Also - I don't recall much of those early arcs and I'm really not inclined to go reread them, but... is there any reason to assume that the fulfillment of the prophecy is a bad thing? I mean, sure, Damien was no good, but that doesn't mean much about the person who's actually doing the thing.

[Rater202]

It could be both. Even if the prophecy is accurate, it doesn't have to be intentional on the Uryuom's part. He could just be thrilled to have magic and still be the person it referred to.

Also - I don't recall much of those early arcs and I'm really not inclined to go reread them, but... is there any reason to assume that the fulfillment of the prophecy is a bad thing? I mean, sure, Damien was no good, but that doesn't mean much about the person who's actually doing the thing.

No information on the Prophecy other than that it involves a "Master of Fire" who will unite the Chimera. We don't know if it's a good thing, a bad thing, if the main Uryuom Religion is against it or for it. All we know is that Noah's parents were religious fanatics who created Damien to fullfill the prophecy and that Damien was a raging psychopath who killed himself when he realized that he wasn't a god and thus didn't have the right to do the horrible things he did.

However, the current guy is laughing maniacally so if he's the guy of the Prophecy, or if people think he is, then that's a bad.

(Personally, if the Prophecy is legit, I think Fire-Proof Grace is the Master of Fire. Or Tedd, in the "Fire as a metaphor for science" sense, but only if the Prophecy doesn't specify that the Master will be a Chimera or uryuom.)

[Fyraltari]

That looks like a wand.

Same difference.

[Rater202]

So apparently whatever the deal with the Dunkel's is is something comparable to the deal with Lord Tedd.

[Calemyr]

So apparently whatever the deal with the Dunkel's is is something comparable to the deal with Lord Tedd.

At least in terms of Dan's willingness to explore it. He's stated multiple times that he doesn't like the Lord Tedd storyline because he felt it was too dark and didn't want to focus his time on it.

The Dunkels, on the other hand, are kinda the opposite. He revels in the WTH moments that come from their mystery - how laid back they are, how quickly they accept the oddities of their son's (and now daughter's) life... Dan derives a lot of comedy from the confounding reactions they provide, and explaining the joke would pretty much kill it.

[Vinyadan]

But Dunkel means "dark"...

[halfeye]

But Dunkel means "dark"...

Dark can mean a lot of things, "hidden" for one. It doesn't have to mean "evil" or "unpleasant", though it can, and it was presunably the latter that was implied with reference to Lord Ted.