El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Kish]

Re: Pandora.

Pandora didn't choose to be insane. she chose to always be there for her son

Which she knew would cause her to go insane.

And "be there for her son"? When he asked her to use her powers to help people rather than amusing herself, she sneered at the idea, claiming that her bloody vengeance on werewolves constituted all the "helping people" she ever needed to do. She tried to warp the world to punish him for not being as selfish as her. She did nothing that he wanted her to do in the entire run of the comic. I'm glad no one's "there for me" like she was for Raven.

[Lizard Lord]

Which she knew would cause her to go insane.

And "be there for her son"? When he asked her to use her powers to help people rather than amusing herself, she sneered at the idea, claiming that her bloody vengeance on werewolves constituted all the "helping people" she ever needed to do. She tried to warp the world to punish him for not being as selfish as her. She did nothing that he wanted her to do in the entire run of the comic. I'm glad no one's "there for me" like she was for Raven.

That was all after she had gone crazy in pursuit of a plan of which the original goal was simply "be there for her son." When she found a way to do that without having to worry about doing anything like the things you mentioned again she was able to convince herself to do it. (She had to convince herself because the crazy part of her that was arguing against a reset wouldn't go away until after she reset.)

And, again, I don't think Tedd and Sarah are even aware of the bad stuff she did.

[Kish]

I have absolutely no objection to Tedd and Sarah's reaction.

I just concur with Vinyadan that it leaves me cold.

And in general, I think Dan would have written a better story if he was still* willing to hurt characters who weren't one-dimensional villains. A satisfying outcome of Pandora's insistence that she wouldn't reset and lose her current emotions even if it turned her into a monster would have been her accepting that she was wrong to hang on and resetting. Another would have been her planning her "refresh," and then tossing it out the window when she had to accept resetting to protect Raven--genuinely making a sacrifice for him, rather than something that served her ego, for the first time, with "maybe an ancient immortal could split out only part of a reset" remaining uncertain, because that wasn't what Pandora did and there were no longer any immortals around close to her pre-reset age.

Having what happened be, instead: Pandora gets her refresh and the worst thing that happens as the result of her holding on for so long and all the other things she did, is that her son speaks a little harshly to her? That strikes me as a vastly inferior story, except for the single purpose "don't make Pandora reset because she really really doesn't want to."

*Again, note "still." Please don't cite Painted Black, or anything that didn't go up (let's say) this year, as a counterargument to this.

[Pablo360]

…in general, I think Dan would have written a better story if he was still* willing to hurt characters who weren't one-dimensional villains. A satisfying outcome of Pandora's insistence that she wouldn't reset and lose her current emotions even if it turned her into a monster would have been her accepting that she was wrong to hang on and resetting. Another would have been her planning her "refresh," and then tossing it out the window when she had to accept resetting to protect Raven--genuinely making a sacrifice for him, rather than something that served her ego, for the first time, with "maybe an ancient immortal could split out only part of a reset" remaining uncertain, because that wasn't what Pandora did and there were no longer any immortals around close to her pre-reset age.

Having what happened be, instead: Pandora gets her refresh and the worst thing that happens as the result of her holding on for so long and all the other things she did, is that her son speaks a little harshly to her? That strikes me as a vastly inferior story, except for the single purpose "don't make Pandora reset because she really really doesn't want to.".

First of all, we don't know how much Pandora will lose in the refresh, but we know it's a lot — most of her power and ability, and much of her knowledge, at the very least — even given that she'll maintain her emotional attachments. Plus maintaining those attachments might mean she loses even more of other things. We don't know, and neither do any characters involved.

Second, if you read Sister III and came away with the impression that Dan doesn't like hurting his characters anymore, I have to wonder what your threshold for “hurt” is. Tedd was traumatized on at least five separate occasions in the past week (Voltaire's appearance, learning magic is going to change, Pandora's appearance, his friends being possessed, & learning of Pandora's fate), and that's not even mentioning the fact that he's probably going to have to put up with his father's casual transphobia for a while. Ellen, Elliot, and Ashley have been through hell itself, and I suspect that, like Sarah and Tedd, once we finally get to see them unwind, we'll also see them unravel. Also, Raven found out that he has had at least two children he never knew about or cared for, who knows how many more, and we can already see that it's tearing him up with guilt. None of that is as dark as Painted Black, but to suggest that it doesn't hurt like hell for the characters is… I don't even know.

Personally, I think Sister III was by far the most emotionally devastating arc of the story, especially the bookends with Pandora. Hell, the first had Pandora dealing with the sudden trauma of her husband's death by training her ten-year-old child to be a master wizard and then knowingly driving herself insane just to stay with him. After all that, to have her suffer the same fate as Jerry would be, in my opinion, overkill. Her family's been through enough as it is.

Also, Pandora losing her emotional connection to Tedd after having literally one conversation with her would mean scrapping the single most entertaining character dynamic this comic has ever had, f*ck you, fight me (please don't fight me, I would lose)

[Rater202]

None of that is as dark as Painted Black, but to suggest that it doesn't hurt like hell for the characters is… I don't even know.

Immature?

You know what was different between Sister III and A Painted Black?

We knew that none of the main characters would die ahead of time in Sister III.

Looking at it objectively... If you had someone read them blind without the commentary or foreknowledge of what would come after, I say they'd be about equally dark, if not dark in the ame ways.

Also, it's a very immature stance that "dark" is automatically better.

[Pablo360]

By the way, I realize that my comment may have come across as dismissive of anyone who didn't like Sister III or didn't connect to the comic emotionally as much as they used to. That was totally not my intention. It's more like…*if you want something that's willing to do more permanent, more drastic forms of harm to the characters, or something that isn't a blatant vehicle for indulging in authorial fetishes, you're reading the wrong webcomic and you probably already knew that. EGS was never meant to get as dark as it did during Painted Black. As good as that arc was, it was good in a way that Dan Shive never meant it to be, and the fact that future arcs can't match it just means that he messed up by setting that precedent.

Also, re: the person who is upset that the current EGS:NP storyline is nothing more than a vehicle to explore things that appeal to the author… that is, was, and always will be the explicit (heh) purpose of EGS:NP, and if you don't like it, well, there's a reason it's separated from the main story content. You can just not read it if it doesn't appeal to you; I know I didn't read Goonmanji II or the storyline about Ellen's spells as they were coming out. It's side content whose audience is very specifically the author and anyone who shares his fetishes, and if it fails because that doesn't appeal to you, then that's the equivalent of a non-baseball fan complaining that people play baseball.

[Pablo360]

Was I too extreme? I feel like I was too extreme. Guys, let me know if I was too extreme. Call me out.

[Forum Explorer]

Was I too extreme? I feel like I was too extreme. Guys, let me know if I was too extreme. Call me out.

Well if you insist

All the stuff you mention that Tedd is traumatized by is almost all solved in the same arc.
Voltaire's Appearance: I'm not even counting because he shows up to say he isn't targeting Elliot anymore. He was trying to traumatize Tedd and failed basically.
Learning Magic is going to Change: Talking to magic reveals that magic is kinda unable to precieve the world the way people do and it's pretty easy to talk it into not changing.
Pandora's Appearance: Or rather disappearance. They bonded over a day or two, and then she refreshed. Rather then thinking she's gone for more then a minute, magic personally reassures Tedd that she's going to be alright.
Friends Being Possessed: Tedd didn't know it happened until it was resolved.
Pandora's Fate: Already covered, but really Tedd learned about it in the best way possible. Learned that it happened with almost immediate reassurance that she's going to be alright.

Even the whole 'feeling really sad during a card game thing' feels super forced. Pandora is going to be fine. They know that. They only knew Pandora for the extent of like two conversations. And now playing cards, something that Pandora wasn't physically there for, is making them basically burst into tears. I'm sorry, but I'm not really feeling empathetic to their distress.

And speaking of Pandora, she gets to reveal magic, kill all the vampires in the world, and do a successful refresh. Which oh, looks to have patched things up between her and Raven. Which isn't really a surprise, because Dan refuses to let a villain actually manage to harm a character. Which oh yeah, means Magus gets out scot free, and wait for it, Magus isn't actually a threat to anyone.

[Fyraltari]

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised how devastated they are by Pandora's "death", they all had, what, two-three conversations with her, top? They act like they've known her for years.

Also Magus hasn't really been a vilain since he refused to have Mr.Verres kill Abe.

[Lissou]

Yeah, they barely know her and they know she's fine and remembers them, so I don't really know what there is to mourn for them, it's pretty weird.

[Rater202]

Emotions aren't rational, and Tedd and Sarah are long established as two of the more emotional characters.

Furthermore, while their interactions are limited, their interactions were also emotionally significant: Pandora called Sarah friend and swore an unbreakable vow to help Sarah achieve her lifelong dream of being a "wizard."

Pandora was the first person in on the various Tedd relevant things from the Backstory who 1: Both considered that Tedd might like to know/be better off knowing/be able to handle the truth and then actually tell him.

Everything. Every unanswered question Tedd had about himself, his parents, things he'd never even thought to ask about, all of it. She comforted him when his emotions ran high and explained that his dream of giving everyone magic wasn't necessarily dead, she put the fact that his parents tested him for magic so much that he has a conditioned fear response to buzzy things into a context that isn't just "well, they must have been really disapointed," and when she has an emotional breakdown while explaining the desire to be there for your children but knowing that you can't so you have to make sure they can take care of themselves, Tedd comforts her and sympathizes with her and her desicisions. She openly identifies him with her family, and Their meeting ends with Pandora accepting Tedd for who Tedd is and stating that she'd be proud to call Tedd "Goddaughter" which is a level of acceptance that Tedd desperately needs considering that she's still scared to tell her father that she's on the trans spectrum and that his constant gender-bending isn't some sex-thing.

Furthermore, even though they know Pandora will be back eventually and will have the same emotional ties to them, they don't know how much of her will be the same otherwise--she could come back as a completely different person who just so happens to have memories of loving them.

They also don't know when she'll be back, and suddenly being separated long term from a new friend/family member can hurt.

Even if they had reason to suspect that she'll come back soon and be unchanged, the fact that she risked her sanity to be there for her son only to ultimately die in front of him after sacrificing herself to save his life is still sad.

Finally, lots of people have religious, spiritual, or cultural beliefs in some kind of afterlife where the dead are taken to "live" in eternal paradise.

And yet, every human being, even people who wholeheartedly believe in such things, mourns when a loved one passes on.

This is the same thing: Even believing/knowing that a dead loved one still exists in some form doesn't mean that their death doesn't hurt.

[Pablo360]

Anyone who thinks that trauma doesn't count as trauma if the thing that caused the trauma is then addressed has never experienced trauma. Anyone who thinks that emotional pain doesn't count as emotional pain if the thing that caused the emotional pain is then addressed has never experienced emotional pain. If you get a nasty cut but it heals in a week, you still got a nasty cut. If you break your arm but it heals in a month, you still broke your arm. If you get shell-shocked by an immortal who tried several times to kill your best friend appearing out of the blue, but then he gives a promise you barely believe that he won't try to kill that specific person anymore, you still got shell-shocked by an immortal who tried several times to kill your best friend appearing out of the blue.

[Kish]

If your (bizarrely manipulatively phrased) case was actually valid, you wouldn't need to stretch sixty seconds to a month.

That does, however, highlight another example, since you waved away Painted Black. Can you, as invested as you apparently are in the idea that the comic is just as hard on its characters as it ever was, truly claim that what any of the protagonists* went through in Sister Three is comparable to what Nanase went through in Sister Two? It's not a matter of Painted Black standing out from the rest of the comic; it's a matter of the comic shifting.

*Any one of the protagonists. Either talking about what Pandora went through, or stacking the emotional reactions of Elliott, Ellen, Sarah, Tedd, and Diane to try to reach the same level as Nanase in Sister Two, will cause me to say "bizarrely manipulative" again.

[halfeye]

What bothers me is that Voltaire is still around, and now that Pandora has reset he may be the oldest, strongest and is certainly the maddest and most vindictive of the immortals that we've met so far.

[Pablo360]

I used a variety of times in my example because my point is that the amount of time doesn't matter. Degree is not the deciding factor in pathos.

And as far as comparing Nanase's pain in Sister II to the main eight in Sister III: yeah, Nanase went through something more drastic.

…

*cricket noises*

Awesome, we're agreed. This one part of the story wasn't as extreme as that other part of the story, in that metric, for those characters. Here's the thing: That doesn't make it worse. Sister III was, moreso than any other storyline, about Pandora —*her tragedy bookends it —*and what she went through in this story is arguably more intense than what Nanase went through (not even arguably if you count the backstory). The fact that she's not a main character doesn't matter, because for the purposes of Sister III, she is, just like Bandana was a main character for the purposes of the Andi's mutiny subplot recently in OOTS.

My point is that you're using what I consider an overly simplistic barometric for emotional intensity. Has the comic shifted over the years? Yes, obviously. Has it gotten less intense? I'd argue not really, it's just a different kind of intensity. A subtle intensity, if that makes sense.

[Kish]

Okay, using the word "intense" is shifting from what I said.

I'm saying Dan is much less willing to hurt his characters (mostly protagonists, but to some extent any character who isn't a one-dimensional cartoon villain) than he used to be. I'm kind of boggled that anyone is actually contesting this.

The amount of time doesn't matter? Really? Setting aside for the moment how goofy I find that on its surface, then why didn't you say "get a nasty cut and it magically heals in a few seconds...break your arm but it magically heals in a few seconds"? Because that's how long the "shell-shock" of Tedd hearing that someone he met once had died was allowed to last, as has already been pointed out.

[Forum Explorer]

Anyone who thinks that trauma doesn't count as trauma if the thing that caused the trauma is then addressed has never experienced trauma. Anyone who thinks that emotional pain doesn't count as emotional pain if the thing that caused the emotional pain is then addressed has never experienced emotional pain. If you get a nasty cut but it heals in a week, you still got a nasty cut. If you break your arm but it heals in a month, you still broke your arm. If you get shell-shocked by an immortal who tried several times to kill your best friend appearing out of the blue, but then he gives a promise you barely believe that he won't try to kill that specific person anymore, you still got shell-shocked by an immortal who tried several times to kill your best friend appearing out of the blue.

I totally have, and a very similar scenario to boot. Namely a sick family member in the hospital in critical condition. While things were chancy I was indeed very stressed, panicked, and scared for their life. As soon as they got the all clear, all I felt was relief. And while I intellectually know I felt those emotions, my memories don't have them associated with them. As far as the emotional part of my mind is concerned, it never happened.

The same goes for physical pain. I'm not saying that the month of having a broken arm doesn't suck, but after it's healed you (usually) don't feel any more pain. Your body has gotten over it and is ready for round two. History is full of examples of people who have gotten injured, recovered, and then gone on to succeed at whatever injured them in the first place.

And yes, anything I have experienced and recovered from is lesser than something I haven't recovered from or am currently still experiencing. It's as simple as asking would you rather have a broken arm, or have recovered from a broken arm? One is plainly the better choice.


Now to bring this all back to EGS, I'm not saying there is no suffering at all. That's plainly untrue. I'm saying I'm not invested in it, because I know everything is going to be alright. 100% of the time. The main characters will experience minimum suffering, whatever problems they face will be resolved in their favor, and basically everything is going to be alright.

So yeah, I simply can't emphasize with the tension and emotions of the characters because there is no tension and the emotions come off as exaggerated and false as a result. Like this scene right now. If Pandora had 'died', and was truly gone. Then yeah, I would get it. The characters suffering would resonate with my own experiences and it would be an emotional comic. As is? It feels forced. Like they are going 'look how emotional things are! OMG this is a serious tragic event!' and I'm just not buying it. The characters just come off as drama queens rather then people experiencing real suffering. Does it mean it's unrealistic? No, I can totally buy that some people would act like that. I'm just not invested in it so there is no emotional impact. I just shrug and keep waiting to go back to Grace worrying about Sam & Sarah because her emotions and worries feel appropriate and I am invested in it as a result.


Like going back to Painted Black, Grace and Tedd's nightmares made sense. They felt appropriate and thus I was invested. Grace's PTSD about going into squirrel form felt serious. Ellen's identity crisis was very real. Nanase's worries about coming out and subsequent peace gained through a near death experience was wonderfully written. The Legend of Diane? Felt more bogus than a commercial about buying school supplies.

[Ibrinar]

Agree with Forum Explorer's description. You may say in theory that something is hurtful, but for willingness to hurt I propose a rule of thumb is it presented in a way that makes you as reader actually feel bad for the character? I guess your (Pablo360) threshold is much lower for that but for me that has been a long while with the comic.

[Rater202]

Sister III opens with a major character being hurt badly enough to redefine her life and has several characters suffer great emotional pain several times throughout.

You can't say Dan is unwilling to hurt his characters when we just went through a storyline defined by hurt.

Hell, the strip that killed off Raven's father was posted late because it hurt Dan to do it.

As an aside.



Remember that? From back in 2002?

Dan hasn't changed.

[Pablo360]

I guess your (Pablo360) threshold is much lower for that but for me that has been a long while with the comic.

And that's what this entire conversation is about. You have a higher expectation for pain than this comic has been willing to deliver for a long time. Go read a different comic and stop complaining that not everything is geared toward you in particular. EGS is what it is, it's been on this trajectory for a long time now, and if you're complaining about it now, then either a) you're sticking around despite the fact that it hasn't been giving you what you want for a while, or b) you're just complaining about something you're NOT sticking around for. Either way, that doesn't really make for an interesting general discussion (remember, this board is a GENERAL discussion). It might be interesting to talk about how the way Dan handles trauma and emotional pain has changed over the years, but right now

right now

I'd MUCH RATHER talk about how Grace has been using her telekinesis a lot more frivolously recently. Does this imply that she's becoming more skilled with it as a result of training with Greg and Ellen, and if so, is this building up to another fight scene where her TK skill will pay off? Or is it more symbolic of her character growth, with her gradually becoming more accepting of her own nature as a Greater Chimera after rejecting it at the end of Painted Black? I'm leaning toward the latter, especially because D4's aren't that dangerous. She's been finding more and more excuses to play around with her powers, and TK is simply one of those powers.

[Kish]

And that's what this entire conversation is about. You have a higher expectation for pain than this comic has been willing to deliver for a long time. Go read a different comic and stop complaining that not everything is geared toward you in particular. EGS is what it is, it's been on this trajectory for a long time now, and if you're complaining about it now, then either a) you're sticking around despite the fact that it hasn't been giving you what you want for a while, or b) you're just complaining about something you're NOT sticking around for.

Or, you know, we still read the comic while observing that Dan's regrettably taken to wrapping his characters in cotton wool--despite how bizarrely offensive you seem to find that observation.

(Yes, I am directly ignoring the second half of your, "You shouldn't be posting what you are, now let's change the subject to what I want!" post. If you're trying to get people to want to discuss Grace's telekinesis with you, your approach needs work.)

[Pablo360]

Dan's regrettably taken to wrapping his characters in cotton wool--despite how bizarrely offensive you seem to find that observation.

I don't find it offensive, I find it inaccurate and, frankly, weird. What even is your argument? If it's that he's not inflicting the same degree on his characters, I never argued that. If it's that he isn't hurting his characters anymore, that's factually untrue. The series is just exploring a different type of pain than it used to —*a more subtle type, one rooted in sociality and family and the pain of loss rather than raw physical and emotional trauma. And you talk about it so disparagingly, as if it somehow doesn't count as pain because there is another pain that's greater. It's just…*annoying.

Because I said that Sister III resonated with me emotionally. That's fine. You said it didn't. That's fine. But then you said that he isn't willing to hurt any characters that aren't one-dimensional villains, and that's just…*bafflingly wrong.

You keep making arguments of degree, and I think arguments of kind as well, and I'm not really debating that. But you keep talking about how you're not invested in it, when others clearly are, and the obvious answer is that this comic is no longer for you.

I admit, I'm probably being way too defensive. But I'm only getting defensive because it feels like you're attacking the legitimacy of my emotions. When you say the emotional beats in the comic —*emotional beats I empathize with —*come across as false, it makes me viscerally uncomfortable. I know it shouldn't. I'm just trying to explain to you why I keep responding, and why I come across so insistent that there is real pathos in this story.

If you aren't emotionally invested in a story, but other people are, it's almost always because of a mismatch of audience. The fact that you used to be invested doesn't make that any less true.

This is a single discussion thread for El Goonish Shive. People come here wanting to have a conversation about the comic. The conversation this is becoming is worthwhile, but right now it's taking up space that could be used for much more interesting conversations. This will be my last post on the subject of the emotional validity of Sister III; I just want to get the rest of this out there and move on, because come Monday I want to be able to discuss whatever wacky shenanigans Grace's telekinesis cause rather than another round of complaints about how Dan isn't permanently traumatising fictional teenagers enough anymore.

(okay pretend that last part is less salty)

(p.s. qualifying emotional stakes in terms of certainty of outcome is overly simplistic, that's what suspension of disbelief is for, if a story feels weak because nothing bad is happening then it isn't doing enough to distract you from its own fictionality, complain about that instead)

(p.p.s. that's probably the biggest problem with reading the commentary alongside the comic, it messes with the suspension of disbelief, that's probably what you're experiencing since commentary wasn't constant until after Sister II)

(p.p.p.s. i know there was commentary in Sister II but it cut out at the climax, that hasn't been happening anymore, and it's possible that change is at the root cause of your decreased enjoyment of the comic)

(p.p.p.p.s. but that's just a theory)

(p.p.p.p.p.s. a webcomic theory)

(p.p.p.p.p.p.s. thanks for watching)

[Lord Raziere]

I guess these complaints happen because EGS is a slice of life comic cleverly disguised as an anime or superhero comic.

Its clear that Dan watches a lot of said shows, and knows their tropes very well, from Elliot having a superhero form and doing supernatural martial arts, to Tedd being a mad scientist, to Grace basically being a cute squirrel version of Cell, even to Susan being a potential vampire hunter. but none of that is the focus, the focus is the characters relationships and personal problems.

any other writer by now would probably be figuring out the next set of bad guys to send at them. I'd most certainly have made Tedd into shapeshifting genderfluid bat(wo)man, Elliot and Magus would be fighting each other in a rivalry, Nanase's mom would turn out to be a badass and Ellen would have to fight in a duel for Nanase's hand, while Elliot himself would be the center of four way battle between Susan, Ashley, Sarah, and Diane, possibly with Justin, as well Diane and Susan's lesbian love interests joining the battle to make a it a chaotic ranma 1/2 style affair, Lord tedd would be a major arc villain where they go into an alternate world where Tedd's transformative technology is taken to its darkest conclusions, where all of Lord Tedd's dissenters have been turned into rats and so on, and Grace would probably undergo some Gohan-esque lesson of learning when to fight for what you believe in when something horrible enough comes along.

and so on and so forth. but thats not what it is, and it doesn't really need to be what I just said, because all the issues involved are probably better expressed through dialogue and talking it out like people would actually do than dramatic fights out of an anime, even if they'd be awesome. sometimes the fact that your a supercool martial artist is a side note to the fact that the person you love doesn't return your feelings because they are straight and no amount of punching will solve that for you, and we're used to universes where any mention of being gay or whatever is at best a sidenote to the supercool martial artist and the problems they punch into being solved, if romance is mentioned at all. and often it either just isn't (in the case of most anime) or is just used as a personal motivating factor for the hero without much depth to it (in the case of superheroes where their love interests are kidnapped by the villain every tuesday).

[Kish]

But you keep talking about how you're not invested in it,

Where?

I admit, I'm probably being way too defensive. But I'm only getting defensive because it feels like you're attacking the legitimacy of my emotions. When you say the emotional beats in the comic —*emotional beats I empathize with —*come across as false, it makes me viscerally uncomfortable. I know it shouldn't. I'm just trying to explain to you why I keep responding, and why I come across so insistent that there is real pathos in this story.

Dude, I don't care. You apparently understand that you're being inappropriately rude, you just...think I should be willing to edit for you and pretend you posted something other than you did. If you don't want to be arguing this, stop arguing it! Don't write long posts beating up on strawmen and justify it with "my feelings!"

[Forum Explorer]

I admit, I'm probably being way too defensive. But I'm only getting defensive because it feels like you're attacking the legitimacy of my emotions. When you say the emotional beats in the comic —*emotional beats I empathize with —*come across as false, it makes me viscerally uncomfortable. I know it shouldn't. I'm just trying to explain to you why I keep responding, and why I come across so insistent that there is real pathos in this story.

If you aren't emotionally invested in a story, but other people are, it's almost always because of a mismatch of audience. The fact that you used to be invested doesn't make that any less true.

This is a single discussion thread for El Goonish Shive. People come here wanting to have a conversation about the comic. The conversation this is becoming is worthwhile, but right now it's taking up space that could be used for much more interesting conversations. This will be my last post on the subject of the emotional validity of Sister III; I just want to get the rest of this out there and move on, because come Monday I want to be able to discuss whatever wacky shenanigans Grace's telekinesis cause rather than another round of complaints about how Dan isn't permanently traumatising fictional teenagers enough anymore.

Hey, you literally asked for it, remember?

Seriously you want the conversation done, then I'm fine with stopping my part of it. There really isn't anything more to say anyways. Really though I wish Dan would stop trying to do story lines like Sister 3. His pure Slice of Life stuff is usually pretty good. With Legend of Diane being a notable exception.

[John Campbell]

Am I the only one who's bothered by Dan using the "dn" notation for dice, but spelling out the number?

[Lissou]

I like the comic. I just felt like Ted and Sarah's reactions are more about Dan's feelings about it all. That doesn't prevent me from enjoying the comic. Dan hates hurting his characters, as far as I can tell it's been the case ever since he's been strongly attached to them (which probably didn't happen right away), and it's sweet, but it also means that what Dan felt drawing sad things over days and months and years is represented in the characters even though they experienced it much faster and didn't take the full brunt of it. And yes, time does make a difference, that's why we talk about pulling the bandaid quickly and stuff like that. Pain that is super temporary is forgotten very quickly, pain that lasts longer has a longer impact.

[Pablo360]

So, two things (because I need to actively stop myself from rejoining the “Dan doesn't like to hurt his characters” argument):

1. Okay, I REALLY thought Grace was going to use telekinesis to pick up the dice and be spotted; this is way cooler. I should just stop trying to predict what's going to happen in this comic.

2. Does Sam have a full name yet? Because I propose Samuel A. Taschenmeister (pocket master). The A stands for “another pocket”.

[Lissou]

Well, we don't know if Sam has changed his name at this point. It looks like he's only out in the game store, so my guess is his full name is Samantha still. No clue about a last name though.

[Fyraltari]

Well, we don't know if Sam has changed his name at this point. It looks like he's only out in the game store, so my guess is his full name is Samantha still. No clue about a last name though.

He may only use the name "Sam" with people who know him as male, though, and have been born Jennifer or what-have-you.