afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Gotham]

Hey; long time reader.

My current understanding of the planar setup is thus:

A typical setting (call it MyTable) takes place on a planet or other world-shape in an outer-space-like void (that may or may not have moons or other planets) called "Wyldspace". At the edge of this wyldspace is a border that is a "Crystal Sphere".

Outside teh crystal sphere is the "Flow" which is filled with phlogiston, which is in between other Crystal Spheres.

All these spheres are collectively the Prime Material Plane, while each of sphere (which contains a setting such as MyTable, Krynn or FR) might be described as its own Material Plane.

The Prime Material Plane (as I described it above) shares a single instance of the Inner Planes (elemental, transitive, shadow, etc), Outer Planes (the various 'aligned' planes like Baator, Celestia and Limbo), and the Outlands (including the Spire and Sigil).

The gods and other powerful planar lords (like Asmodeus or Demogorgon) of each sphere exist in the Outer Planes, in their divine realms, and only aspects of them are present inside the crystal spheres. So if FR, Greyhawk and MyTable all have an Asmodeus or a Bahamut, there's actually only one of either, extending their influence and presence into the spheres of the setting in question. In other words, much like how FR, Greyhawk and My Table share a single Celestia, we also share a single Bahamut.

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Is my understanding of the planar cosmology correct, as I've explained it above?

[enderlord99]

Hey; long time reader.

My current understanding of the planar setup is thus:

A typical setting (call it MyTable) takes place on a planet or other world-shape in an outer-space-like void (that may or may not have moons or other planets) called "Wyldspace". At the edge of this wyldspace is a border that is a "Crystal Sphere".

Outside teh crystal sphere is the "Flow" which is filled with phlogiston, which is in between other Crystal Spheres.

All these spheres are collectively the Prime Material Plane, while each of sphere (which contains a setting such as MyTable, Krynn or FR) might be described as its own Material Plane.

The Prime Material Plane (as I described it above) shares a single instance of the Inner Planes (elemental, transitive, shadow, etc), Outer Planes (the various 'aligned' planes like Baator, Celestia and Limbo), and the Outlands (including the Spire and Sigil).

The gods and other powerful planar lords (like Asmodeus or Demogorgon) of each sphere exist in the Outer Planes, in their divine realms, and only aspects of them are present inside the crystal spheres. So if FR, Greyhawk and MyTable all have an Asmodeus or a Bahamut, there's actually only one of either, extending their influence and presence into the spheres of the setting in question. In other words, much like how FR, Greyhawk and My Table share a single Celestia, we also share a single Bahamut.

-

Is my understanding of the planar cosmology correct, as I've explained it above?

Asmodeus and Demogorgon don't have divine realms, because they're not technically gods. Otherwise, that's basically accurate.

[Gotham]

Ah-yep. Added planar lords after typing divine realms and forgot to go back and change it. Thanks!


Another Q: whats a good resource for reading about the Draeden, Baalphegor or the Thoon illithids (other than the one MM they appear in)

and

is the creature type "aberration" derived by the creature's relationship with the planes? viz., if aboleths originated on the material, why are they aberrations and not, say, magical beasts or something?

[Tzardok]

is the creature type "aberration" derived by the creature's relationship with the planes? viz., if aboleths originated on the material, why are they aberrations and not, say, magical beasts or something?

Being an aberration isn't about being planar or non-planar. An aberration has a strange body, an alien mind, bizare abilities or any combination of those three points. Beholders are a wonderful example. They are floating spheres with too many eyes and teeth, they can shoot eye beams and they think of themself as the beautiful centre of the world.
Aboleths are the same way: unnatural crosses of fish, cephalopod and crustecean, born at the beginning of time when a Far Realms entity crashed into our reality, possesed by psionic powers and the ability to remember everything that happened to their ancestors and filled by hatred for everything warm, dry and bright.

[Khedrac]

And about the only canon sources for Draeden are the D&D Gold Box rules and the Wrath of the Immortals Rules - neither of which are remotely useful for how they fit into the Great Wheel cosmology...
Basically the 3.5/Great Wheel references are an example of the writers wanting to have a hook to something really old (before the gods etc.) and really powerful (the Gold Box history had a war between the immortals (playable version fo the gods) and the draeden) and using the name of a type of being from a previous version of the game without attempting to update them or explain the changes.

(Iirc the war was basically a draw, or a narrow win for the immortals - the draeden retreated to the depths of space and the astral plane where they still live. Their usual reation to encountering matter is to try to eat it, and the usual reaction of an immortal to one interfereing with one of the immortal's plots is to abandon that plot and start again elsewhere.)

[Bronk]

Hey; long time reader.

My current understanding of the planar setup is thus:

A typical setting (call it MyTable) takes place on a planet or other world-shape in an outer-space-like void (that may or may not have moons or other planets) called "Wyldspace". At the edge of this wyldspace is a border that is a "Crystal Sphere".

Outside teh crystal sphere is the "Flow" which is filled with phlogiston, which is in between other Crystal Spheres.

All these spheres are collectively the Prime Material Plane, while each of sphere (which contains a setting such as MyTable, Krynn or FR) might be described as its own Material Plane.

The Prime Material Plane (as I described it above) shares a single instance of the Inner Planes (elemental, transitive, shadow, etc), Outer Planes (the various 'aligned' planes like Baator, Celestia and Limbo), and the Outlands (including the Spire and Sigil).

The gods and other powerful planar lords (like Asmodeus or Demogorgon) of each sphere exist in the Outer Planes, in their divine realms, and only aspects of them are present inside the crystal spheres. So if FR, Greyhawk and MyTable all have an Asmodeus or a Bahamut, there's actually only one of either, extending their influence and presence into the spheres of the setting in question. In other words, much like how FR, Greyhawk and My Table share a single Celestia, we also share a single Bahamut.

-

Is my understanding of the planar cosmology correct, as I've explained it above?

Yes... Here are some of Afroakuma's posts from previous threads that helped me:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1244

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=408

[ShurikVch]

Many petitioners in the Abyss, and almost all - in Baator, are conscripted to various armies; non-incorporeal petitioners of Hades are frequently devoured, used for magical purposes, of bartered away; what's happens with petitioners on other non-Good planes?

Near the Spire of the Outlands, all psionics, spells, SLA, Su, and even SDA are don't work; but how about the magical items? (Yes, I know - using trigger/completion items is flying directly in the face of RACSD, but what's about, say, a Ring of Protection?)

Also, I remember reading somewhere something like "Tieflings are like Half-Fiends, just without wings"; I tried to find and re-read exact wording, but wasn't able to find it; anybody know where it may be? (I just hope it wasn't 4E)

[Caelestion]

What is RACSD?

[ShurikVch]

What is RACSD?

Rules As Common Sense Dictates
("RAI" is ambiguous - it may be "Rules As Intended" or "Rules As Interpreted", and number of possible interpretations may be unlimited)

[Tzardok]

Near the Spire of the Outlands, all psionics, spells, SLA, Su, and even SDA are don't work; but how about the magical items? (Yes, I know - using trigger/completion items is flying directly in the face of RACSD, but what's about, say, a Ring of Protection?)

There was a discussion on the Spire in the sixth thread. Long story short: the Spire suppresses everything, including items.

[Silva]

Are there any kind of guns in the setting? I wanted to insert some limited power guns in Sigil akin to flintlocks (I find it fits its Vixtorian London style).

Maybe some modron tech clovkwork like kludge gun?

[Chainguy]

Are there any kind of guns in the setting? I wanted to insert some limited power guns in Sigil akin to flintlocks (I find it fits its Vixtorian London style).

Maybe some modron tech clovkwork like kludge gun?

Dragon Magasine 321 p.30+ and DMG p.145 got you covered with a selection of renaissance weapons and more.

[Fable Wright]

Are there any kind of guns in the setting? I wanted to insert some limited power guns in Sigil akin to flintlocks (I find it fits its Vixtorian London style).

Maybe some modron tech clovkwork like kludge gun?

I believe Planescape's Giff (hippo men) had firearms and often traveled wild space in mercenary bands. It's not unreasonable that people could acquire and then copy a few of their guns.

[Talakeal]

The Nighmare entry in the second edtion Monster manual states that agents of evil from across the planes meet every ten years in Hades at an event called the Gloom Meet.

Is this Gloom Meet ever elaborated upon in any other book?

[enderlord99]

The Nighmare entry in the second edtion Monster manual states that agents of evil from across the planes meet every ten years in Hades at an event called the Gloom Meet.

Is this Gloom Meet ever elaborated upon in any other book?

I think it was merely supposed to happen every ten years, starting right after the Ghoresh Chasm was discovered, but it stopped happening after just one meeting because the whole thing was ruined over a seating argument.

That might be something else, though.

[Brookshw]

An open ended question I suppose. Any advice on structuring/running an adventure through the Deep Ethereal?

More structured, I was considering players going to the Deep to find a "past" Chronolily to pick a petal for use in some ritual. Having read through Guide to the Ethereal (among other sources), I wanted to inquire if you had any practical advise from your own experiences. What worked well? How to present protomatter or anything else which you found makes for an interesting adventure? What might the psychology of an NPC be if they've lived in the Deep for long? Anything to watch out for (in terms of running the game)? Mind the Ether Gap

[enderlord99]

An open ended question I suppose. Any advice on structuring/running an adventure through the Deep Ethereal?

Probably don't. But if you must... make it weird.

[Dalmosh]

Colothys is often called "The Prison of Liars"

Do the other Layers of Carceri have established themes linked to who gets sent there? Some of their descriptions seem to imply this, but I don't remember this being explicitly stated anywhere.
Head-canon welcome in the absence of anything better.

[Lady Serpentine]

You mention Baator-heritage Tieflings here; what difference, if any, would there be for those descended from actual Baatorians instead of Baatezu? Would whether it would be distinct and/or the sort of differences one might expect to see differ for Nuperibo-descended tieflings vs. those descended from a more powerful Baatorian?

On a related note, would a tiefling of such descent have any value beyond the inherent worth of their soul and whatever they might possess as an agent/slave/mercenary/servant? I'm assuming the answer is simply "no" for anyone who's too distant a relation, but, say, a quarter-Nuperibo or someone similarly close. (Presumably most of this value would be to races intimately involved in the Blood War if so, but I'm curious about it both in relation to the Blood War and to, say, if a surviving Baatorian - presumably Baalphegor as the only candidate I'm aware of -would have some use for them related to the presumable grudge being held against the Baatezu.)

A third related question, applicable to both aasimar and tielfings: Are the traits of such individuals more based on parent race or plane? In either case, how much influence does the mortal parent have? (For example, is a tiefling whose father was a goblin going to be smaller (in the non-mechanical sense) than their half-sibling who's got orc blood?)

Would the child of a Baatorian and a Baatezu have any interesting features? I'm guessing that Baalphegor is the likeliest way for this to happen again, what with her being consort to Mephistopheles, but I'm equally curious about the results in other cases.

Can non-uniques become uniques? If not, what makes them so (ahem) unique?

You've mentioned that exemplars advance by becoming purer examples of their natures. Is XP the only way to do this, or could a demon theoretically advance purely by reading and internalizing (evil) philosophy, for example? Can an exemplar whose alignment changes no longer advance?

On that note, does this mean that the weaker a fiend is, the easier it is to negotiate with, not only because it can more easily be forced to do what you want and has fewer of its own interests to pursue, but because it is a less pure - and therefore closer to human - expression of its philosophy?

Next up, a headache and a half: My understanding is that the asteroid belt around Eberron is the corpse of Siberys. If a high-level cleric (and also a dragon native to there) got it into her head that she was going to bring him back to life, what would the best way of going about that be? What would the consequences be if she succeeded?

Moving on from that mess... Ravenloft is often considered inescapable. This isn't technically true, of course (Vecna managed to cheat, Outsiders are encouraged to leave, etc.), but it usually is pretty close. In the event that the Dark Powers were silly enough to take one, and it was repairable after presumably crashing, would having a complete spelljammer alter this, or would you still be stuck?

Does the distaste for Outsiders mean that tieflings and aasimar (along with their presumable purely lawful, neutral, and chaotic counterparts) are free to commit whatever evils they like without the need to fear the Demiplane of Dread?

[aj77]

I don't think it's been specifically asked here before, so: what's the likelihood that Ahriman, the serpent of law, is the leader of the ancient Baatorians?

On a related note, what's the likelihood that Jazirian was a leader of the precursors of the Archons? (I think Afro hinted they were called Aeons; perhaps some of them were ouroboros themed?)

[Alea]

My understanding is that the asteroid belt around Eberron is the corpse of Siberys. If a high-level cleric (and also a dragon native to there) got it into her head that she was going to bring him back to life, what would the best way of going about that be? What would the consequences be if she succeeded?

I’m not half the Eberron scholar that afro is of the Planes, but since afro has indicated his distaste for Eberron in general and his uncertainty/apathy about this point, I’ll take a stab.

First, bear in mind that the creation myth of Eberron, Khyber, and Siberys may actually be just a myth. It’s certainly a wide-spread one found in many cultures, which maybe gives it credence, but then, it was a dragon myth first, and dragons influenced most of the cultures that came after—the Sovereign Host and Dark Six are literally the draconic faith given more human names and stories. So it may not work at all because there may not have ever actually been a living dragon named Siberys to revive in the first place.

Second, even if it is true, the remains of Siberys are disintegrated fossils at this point. It is very unlikely that they offer any but the scantest magical connection to the dragon Siberys. It certainly isn’t going to be as simple as taking a Siberys shard and casting resurrection, even ignoring the time issues, despite what resurrection says about the remains left after a disintegrate spell.

On which point, third, the time scales in Eberron are preposterously huge. Honestly, like the scales of the maps and the figures for population offered in the book, I suspect they are at least an order of magnitude away from plausible. The death of the world-dragons occurred some significant amount of time prior to the Age of Demons—which was ten million years ago. Even true resurrection would require a caster level of a million or more to reach that far back.

Fourth, remember that Eberron as a setting offers probably one person in the whole world who can actually manage to cast true resurrection (that being the Keeper of the Flame, and she only while within the cathedral at Flamekeep). The dragons, obviously, have higher-level and higher-power individuals, and of course some dragons get cleric casting, so true resurrection is more realistically within their grasp—but they certainly haven’t revived any world-dragons. And even though the dragons are massively more powerful than anything else on the surface of Eberron, it’s important to remember the scale we are weighing them on. Eberron dragons are not like the movers and shakers of planar politics. Even at their best, they are vastly less powerful than gods, or god-competitive planar powers.

So, would a million-CL true resurrection actually work? I would say no, but I would say that this gives you kind of an idea what level of effort we are talking about—a million CL still falls short of what we would need. And I’m ignoring infinite loop shenanigans or greater consumptive field for this purpose, we’re talking about somehow cobbling together that kind of CL from hundreds of thousands of grand magical items and artifacts and cooperative spellcasting.

Also, keep in mind that the world-dragons are literally the world of Eberron. Raising Siberys would be the least disruptive of the three, but frankly I don’t think it happens without destroying the planet and every living thing on it. I know raising Eberron or Khyber would.

So that’s kind of a half-answer, just some of the things you would have to keep in mind about it, but I’ll think on it some more and perhaps extend from here to an actual answer.

[afroakuma]

An open ended question I suppose. Any advice on structuring/running an adventure through the Deep Ethereal?

Stay away from whatever ether gap Fro walked into and vanished for ages.

I've never run anything in the Deep Ethereal, but I'd say it's a great opportunity to do "strange." Remember that like Deep Shadow, Deep Ethereal mirrors nothing - what you see there is a reflection or foggy afterimage of no Material landscape. It's alternately tremendously lonely and hollow, and surprisingly populated in places. You may find "quicksand" that plummets you "through" to the base gravity plane because it tricks you into forgetting you don't need to remain grounded. "Wind" that elevates you or rotates your orientation.

Living in the Deep Ethereal would be a strange and alienating experience. You wouldn't even comprehend the Border Ethereal - the Deep has no beings or Material structures to reflect. You are wholly within an insular reality, though a reality detached from what we would normally consider sensible. You regularly encounter beings with the capacity to distort your understanding of, or sometimes presence in, time, matter, thought... yeah. The "cultures" of the plane are pretty xenophobic as a general rule and inimical to Material cultures, so anyone learning to live among their number is likely to pick up similar habits.

Colothys is often called "The Prison of Liars"

Do the other Layers of Carceri have established themes linked to who gets sent there? Some of their descriptions seem to imply this, but I don't remember this being explicitly stated anywhere.
Head-canon welcome in the absence of anything better.

It actually is spelled out!

• Othrys is the prison of those who betrayed followers - politicians, religious figures, and traitors.
• Cathrys is the prison of those who betrayed their humanity to act as savages.
• Minethys is the prison of the greedy, those who kept from others in need without gain for themselves.
• Colothys is the prison of those who cheated and lied out of pure scorn for honesty and truth.
• Porphatys is the prison of the shallow, the self-obsessed, and the uncharitable, who did nothing in their power to aid others.
• Agathys is the prison of those who betrayed friendship and close confidences.

You mention Baator-heritage Tieflings here; what difference, if any, would there be for those descended from actual Baatorians instead of Baatezu? Would whether it would be distinct and/or the sort of differences one might expect to see differ for Nuperibo-descended tieflings vs. those descended from a more powerful Baatorian?

Nupperibos aren't capable of reproducing. As for the traits of more advanced baatorians, it would be reasonable to suggest that they would be rather different from those of baatezu-descended, kyton-descended, or other nonspecific devil-descended tieflings - but what nature such beings might take is impossible to say, as we know so little about the nature of the ancient baatorians themselves.

On a related note, would a tiefling of such descent have any value beyond the inherent worth of their soul and whatever they might possess as an agent/slave/mercenary/servant?

Oh I would very much expect so. They'd be a subject of great interest for many purposes, all of them malign.

A third related question, applicable to both aasimar and tielfings: Are the traits of such individuals more based on parent race or plane? In either case, how much influence does the mortal parent have? (For example, is a tiefling whose father was a goblin going to be smaller (in the non-mechanical sense) than their half-sibling who's got orc blood?)

Personally I've always felt they should be templates to apply to a base race - the base race definitely has an influence. You can obviously have a half-fiend goblin which is goblinoid in nature; why would their goblin-bred children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren suddenly become taller and clumsier?

While mechanically there's no bearing, of course, I would say that by and large mortal parentage does have a substantial impact on the overall appearance of a tiefling. As for the otherworldly traits, those are incumbent on the nature of the supernatural parent moreso than the plane. I lined them up as I did based on the nature of beings from the planes in question.

Would the child of a Baatorian and a Baatezu have any interesting features?

No moreso than the offspring of any two outsider races, likely - at least insofar as the characteristics of each are the norm for that race. Once again, though, we do not understand ancient baatorians sufficiently to project what nature they might pass down to such a child.

Can non-uniques become uniques? If not, what makes them so (ahem) unique?

Why yes they can! And many have! I'd like to draw your attention to Exhibit A: Orcus, who worked his way up from manes.

You've mentioned that exemplars advance by becoming purer examples of their natures. Is XP the only way to do this, or could a demon theoretically advance purely by reading and internalizing (evil) philosophy, for example?

I mean, that's just gaining XP by a less violent method. Though evil philosophy is a bit trite where fiends are concerned.

Can an exemplar whose alignment changes no longer advance?

It would no longer be able to become what it might have - but the Planes are strange and have a place for beings who go beyond normal classifications. It might still "advance" into something distinctive that is not what it was.

On that note, does this mean that the weaker a fiend is, the easier it is to negotiate with, not only because it can more easily be forced to do what you want and has fewer of its own interests to pursue, but because it is a less pure - and therefore closer to human - expression of its philosophy?

I mean, lemures are tremendously weak, but you can't negotiate with them. In general I'd say you could not make this statement accurately - a fiend of status, for instance, might be easier to negotiate with due to having more obvious and prominent wants and needs centered around its station.

Next up, a headache and a half: My understanding is that the asteroid belt around Eberron is the corpse of Siberys. If a high-level cleric (and also a dragon native to there) got it into her head that she was going to bring him back to life, what would the best way of going about that be? What would the consequences be if she succeeded?

I have referred this question to an Eberron consultant on the grounds that I hate Eberron deeply.

Moving on from that mess... Ravenloft is often considered inescapable. This isn't technically true, of course (Vecna managed to cheat, Outsiders are encouraged to leave, etc.), but it usually is pretty close. In the event that the Dark Powers were silly enough to take one, and it was repairable after presumably crashing, would having a complete spelljammer alter this, or would you still be stuck?

I mean they likely do have one - the Mists can flow into wildspace (this has been explicitly stated) although they specifically cannot reach into the phlogiston. A spelljammer would be able to ply the skies, at least within the domain and to the extent of its boundaries, but would never find a crystal shell to escape - Ravenloft doesn't have one. It would end up being very little different than having a sailing ship in Ravenloft waters.

Does the distaste for Outsiders mean that tieflings and aasimar (along with their presumable purely lawful, neutral, and chaotic counterparts) are free to commit whatever evils they like without the need to fear the Demiplane of Dread?

Firstly, "free" is pushing it, given the normal logical consequences of living an evil life (see Planes, Lower). Ravenloft will also collect them if they fit the profile of its chosen prisoners - they're not spicy enough for Ravenloft to be put off, and the Demiplane of Dread is not averse to holding outsiders when they bring about sufficient Whatever It Is The Dark Powers Like.

I don't think it's been specifically asked here before, so: what's the likelihood that Ahriman, the serpent of law, is the leader of the ancient Baatorians?

Zilch.

On a related note, what's the likelihood that Jazirian was a leader of the precursors of the Archons? (I think Afro hinted they were called Aeons; perhaps some of them were ouroboros themed?)

Also zilch.

[Fable Wright]

Next up, a headache and a half: My understanding is that the asteroid belt around Eberron is the corpse of Siberys. If a high-level cleric (and also a dragon native to there) got it into her head that she was going to bring him back to life, what would the best way of going about that be? What would the consequences be if she succeeded?

For all the reasons Alea listed, this is impossible.

The same thing was said of binding the Overlords, at the end of the Age of Demons.

In short, this is going to need to be a job for one of the two Deus Ex Machina forces of Eberron—the Draconic Prophecy, or (as Keith Baker calls them) Apex Dragonmarks. Your dragon is going to need to either discern from the many flowing paths of the Prophecy some route that brings back Siberys from the dead, while preventing the mighty Chamber and Lords of Dust from discovering that this path even exists—or at least prevent them from interfering with it, such as by leveling the continent you're staying on. (See: Xen'drik)

Alternatively, you could try what the line of Vol did: Manifest a Dragonmark on someone with the dragon's blood. It's said that if Erandis Vol were not a lich, and could use the power of her mark, she could fundamentally change the nature of Dollurh. Or life on all of Eberron. An Apex Mark is enough to change the entire cosmology—which is, of course, why they were utterly annihilated to the last. But the Siberys Mark of Healing can get power of up to 9th level spells; and it can raise the dead with a focus item. If you could arrange for a half-dragon child of House Jorasco to be born, and manifest an Apex Dragonmark, and create for them an Eldritch Machine level focus item, you very well could wind up reviving Siberys... assuming that House Jorasco, and everyone who set up this experiment, doesn't go the way of House Vol.

The consequences would be apocalyptic, certainly. The Progenitor Dragons were in the middle of their magnum opus, the Material Plane, when Khyber killed Siberys. That means the material plane isn't finished. Eberron would likely stir in her coils, releasing Khyber into the world as tectonic drift begins to occur in hours instead of millenia... assuming that people are left alive, the biggest change (aside from Khyber's far more active influence) is a dramatic increase in planar influences of all types, as the Material Plane was supposed to be a blending of all of them. Given how much of it exists outside of Manifest Zones, it's not quite at that level yet.

Oh, and we have no idea what would happen to arcane magic, since it's all tied to Siberys's corpse. Does it suddenly grow massively in strength? Does the Draconic Prophecy grow stronger, or cease to exist? Will Eberron Dragonshards still fall from the sky? Will the Dragonmarks vanish with the prophecy, or grow stronger than ever? We don't know. Everything we know about the world would change... but in theory, it would mark the world's transition into a complete, platonic ideal of itself.

[Alea]

In short, this is going to need to be a job for one of the two Deus Ex Machina forces of Eberron—the Draconic Prophecy, or (as Keith Baker calls them) Apex Dragonmarks.

One should be very careful of what Keith Baker says in blogs and interviews, when it doesn’t have to go through the writing and editing and publication process. Like many world-builders (cf. George Lucas), he has some very, very bad ideas that he sometimes spouts, and having people around him to rein in those ideas sometimes is important.

Anyway, in 3.x, with the works published for Eberron in that edition, “apex marks” don’t exist and Erandis d’Vol was so hated because of racism, basically, not because of any world-threatening magic she would have had. For my money, is it an interesting idea that a dragon with a mark would have different, perhaps more powerful effects? Yes. Should doing that immediately create something world-threatening? No, I think that’s dumb—and I tend to think that other people working on Eberron think so too, since it doesn’t actually show up in any published books.

Siberys dragonmarks already are “apex” marks, being mysterious and unpredictable and, for the setting, preposterously powerful. And that “for the setting” is so, so key: Eberron works as a setting only because it is so low-level and low-power.

[Fable Wright]

Anyway, in 3.x, with the works published for Eberron in that edition, “apex marks” don’t exist and Erandis d’Vol was so hated because of racism, basically, not because of any world-threatening magic she would have had. For my money, is it an interesting idea that a dragon with a mark would have different, perhaps more powerful effects? Yes. Should doing that immediately create something world-threatening? No, I think that’s dumb—

First, I'd like to make two points. First, I recall that there was a 3.5 reference to the House of Vol being destroyed because the power of her mark was feared. "Apex Marks" only became called that because Baker was asked so many questions about it that he wanted a shorthand term for marks on that level.

Second, I agree that the mark shouldn't be immediately world threatening. Note that I mentioned that I mentioned that such a powerful mark would need to be harnessed by a dragonmark focus item on the level of an Eldritch Machine. Aka the usual Doomsday Device the heroes must stop.

You are, of course, free to say that the power of the Mark of Death was just propaganda, and no stronger than any other Siberys mark. But if you wanted a justification for something so far beyond the impossible that an Eldritch Machine could not cover the scope of it, Apex Marks with EM Dragonmark Focus items is a possible route for the DM to craft a story that has several big phases, points of failure, and easy factions to bake in as allies and enemies. Using apex marks is no more badwrongfun than saying that Erandis's mark was normal, even unremarkable.

[Alea]

First, I'd like to make two points. First, I recall that there was a 3.5 reference to the House of Vol being destroyed because the power of her mark was feared. "Apex Marks" only became called that because Baker was asked so many questions about it that he wanted a shorthand term for marks on that level.

Well, I’ve been looking, and can’t find it. Eberron Campaign Setting has oddly little about Erandis d’Vol, only saying she’s the archlich in charge of the Blood of Vol, and listing the date of her birth and death in the history timeline. Player’s Guide to Eberron doesn’t even mention that much. Magic of Eberron and Dragonmarked seem to have nothing. And while Faiths of Eberron seems to be the one source to actually go into Erandis’s history, it only says “revelation of Erandis’s existence did indeed unify the two races [elves and dragons] (and ironically, brought an end to the periodic conflicts) but not in the [sic] House Vol as they had hoped. Mutual outrage brought elves and dragons together, and they immediately began a campaign to obliterate all traces of both half-dragons and House Vol from the face of Eberron.” No mention is made of any fear that Erandis d’Vol’s Mark of Death would be particularly dangerous.

Second, I agree that the mark shouldn't be immediately world threatening. Note that I mentioned that I mentioned that such a powerful mark would need to be harnessed by a dragonmark focus item on the level of an Eldritch Machine. Aka the usual Doomsday Device the heroes must stop.

Sure, Eldritch Machines can do anything. Half-dragon halfling with a Siberys Mark of Healing operating a particular Eldritch Machine is... not my cup of tea, but it’s probably in the right ballpark as far as difficulty and specificity are concerned. If someone actually came to my game looking to play a half-dragon halfling who ended up taking the heir of Siberys prestige class, I could see going for it.

You are, of course, free to say that the power of the Mark of Death was just propaganda,

The Mark of Death was absolutely a thing, but it was a thing regular elves of House Vol had, and it came in the same regular Least/Lesser/Greater/Siberys levels that other marks do. I was referring specifically to the idea that a half-dragon “apex” dragonmark would be such a cause for concern.

[Fable Wright]

Well, I’ve been looking, and can’t find it.

I will cede you this point. I found my backing citation in the Eberron Campaign Guide, written for 4e—which was the first product that presented Eberron in a cohesive way that I could get into.

The war was bitter, but its result was never in doubt. The line of Vol was exterminated, and its allies from other lines fled to Khorvaire, bringing the beliefs that would form the basis of the Blood of Vol.

Most assume that the elves feared the power of the Mark of Death. But a close study of the records challenges this assumption. If the mark was so deadly, how was the house defeated? In fact, elf and dragon didn't fear what the line of vol as it was; they were afraid of what it might become. In the mingling of elf and dragon, there was the potential to create something new—a being who could become the avatar of death itself.

They were right to be afraid. The war began with the birth of just such a being: Erandis, last scion of the line of Vol. Born of elf and dragon, her Mark of Death was unlike any other. In time, it could have been her gateway to immortality. But she was killed long before she could master its power. Her mother Minara refused to let her daughter die forever, and used her powers to raise Erandis as a lich, then sent her to Khorvaire with a handful of trusted allies. As an undead being, Erandis cannot use her mark: thus, the Aerenal diviners reported that the Mark of Death had been successfully destroyed. Erandis has spent thousands of years brooding over her loss, realizing the destiny that should have been hers yet being unable to seize it.

So, true enough. If you view the 4e materials as non-canon, there's zero foundation for apex marks to be a thing.

[Tzardok]

A third related question, applicable to both aasimar and tielfings: Are the traits of such individuals more based on parent race or plane? In either case, how much influence does the mortal parent have? (For example, is a tiefling whose father was a goblin going to be smaller (in the non-mechanical sense) than their half-sibling who's got orc blood?)

Personally I've always felt they should be templates to apply to a base race - the base race definitely has an influence. You can obviously have a half-fiend goblin which is goblinoid in nature; why would their goblin-bred children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren suddenly become taller and clumsier?

I always assumed that tieflings and aasimar are specifically humans with outsider blood, and that other planetouched humanoids would be called differently and have different traits (based on the Tanna'ruk and the worghest, for example).

[afroakuma]

I always assumed that tieflings and aasimar are specifically humans with outsider blood, and that other planetouched humanoids would be called differently and have different traits (based on the Tanna'ruk and the worghest, for example).

They are, but my point is I feel "aasimar" and "tiefling" should be names for the products of templates as applied to humans. Tanarruk and fey'ri aren't useful analogues for either as both represent an extremely specific commingling of demon and mortal bloodline.

[Edreyn]

1) What happens to the souls of creatures who are sacrificed to a deity they don't worship?
Do they end up in the realm of the said deity, or they go to their "usual" afterlife, or something else?

2) Where I can read more about war of Law and Chaos, that predated Blood War?

3) Can the length of Blood War, or Law-Chaos War, be measured in a sensible number of years, epochs, eras, modron marches or something else? If so, what those number will be?

4) Are there any articles or books about Factions in Sigil, while there still were many of them, before Lady's interruption?