Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Lans]

If you don't kill the pit fiend in 1 round odds are it will summon an ice fiend or a pair of bone devils to wall of ice you every round when you, or your try to do something. With around 36 hp, it can take a full attack from the solars bow, or 3 hits from its sword.

[emeraldstreak]

UMD Commoner kills a Pit Fiend exactly as a Wizard would, but gains less gold doing so.

[Florian]

UMD Commoner kills a Pit Fiend exactly as a Wizard would, but gains less gold doing so.

And with that, we´re back to square one of the UMD/WBL discussion - everyone can be a Wizard.

[Beheld]

@ColorBlindNinja

The offer was:

@everyone: I present an open challenge, that I will run any "totally standard fighter" against one of a very small set of core EL 20 encounters. Because it sure looks like pretty much every technique for fighter victory relies on enemies just not actually using their abilities.

UMD Commoner kills a Pit Fiend exactly as a Wizard would, but gains less gold doing so.

I mean, Commoner is in much worse condition if he just randomly runs into the Pit Fiend, because Commoners probably can't afford to throw 50 spells levels of buffs up every day on the off chance he runs into an enemy. But yeah, nothing actually stops a UMD commoner from breaking WBL with gated effertis, or making an army of minions, or any of the other break points of the game.

[ColorBlindNinja]

@ColorBlindNinja

The offer was:

I don't think my Commoner would survive that many encounters. Unless I used the Simulacrum Spam or some other cheap tactic.

Question: Does Spell Penetration and its greater cousin apply to scrolls/wands? It might be a good idea to pick them up if they do, I have feats to spare.

I mean, Commoner is in much worse condition if he just randomly runs into the Pit Fiend, because Commoners probably can't afford to throw 50 spells levels of buffs up every day on the off chance he runs into an enemy. But yeah, nothing actually stops a UMD commoner from breaking WBL with gated effertis, or making an army of minions, or any of the other break points of the game.

Agreed, UMD Commoner isn't really practical unless they abuse spells like Gate, Wish, or Simulacrum.

[emeraldstreak]

Agreed, UMD Commoner isn't really practical unless they abuse spells like Gate, Wish, or Simulacrum.

Disagreed, if the Commoner does an encounter per day (or so) there won't be a problem paying for said buffs.


Anyhow, I brought up the Wizard so everyone can agree what is the 100% proof way Core Wizard defeats the Pit Fiend, and then see how much gold it is in UMD.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Disagreed, if the Commoner does an encounter per day (or so) there won't be a problem paying for said buffs.

One encounter a day isn't realistic; you typically have 4-5 CR equal encounters.

Anyhow, I brought up the Wizard so everyone can agree what is the 100% proof way Core Wizard defeats the Pit Fiend, and then see how much gold it is in UMD.

The Wizard can do it over and over again because it's free; UMD characters, not so much.

As a more general comment, I would like to say that I built Carry the Commoner with the intention of fighting a single monster (a Pit Fiend) in an arena battle.

Most arena fights I've seen forbid surprise rounds and teleporting out of the battlefield. That's why I didn't plan for them.

[Beheld]

Disagreed, if the Commoner does an encounter per day (or so) there won't be a problem paying for said buffs.

The point is that the Wizard can buff himself up every day, and not get paid that much every day, and be fine, because his buffs are free. But if the Commoner buffs himself up, but runs into zero Pit Fiends (or other CR appropriate enemies) then he just wasted money.

If on the other hand, he only buffs up when he's very sure he's going to get the money back because of appropriate enemies, then all the enemies with better detection suites than him (all of them at his level) can surprise him and he's at a huge disadvantage. It won't always happen that he gets surprised on an "off" day, but it only has to happen once.

Of course, all of that is before you get into how Disjunction just ends the commoner, whereas it ****s the Wizard pretty hard, he can usually just run away afterword.

[emeraldstreak]

One encounter a day isn't realistic; you typically have 4-5 CR equal encounters.




The Wizard can do it over and over again because it's free; UMD characters, not so much.

As a more general comment, I would like to say that I built Carry the Commoner with the intention of fighting a single monster (a Pit Fiend) in an arena battle.

Most arena fights I've seen forbid surprise rounds and teleporting out of the battlefield. That's why I didn't plan for them.

The more the better for UMD characters.

Arena is fine, my point is the Pit Fiend side ought to agree how Wizards win this one before complaining about your spell selection.

[Beheld]

As a more general comment, I would like to say that I built Carry the Commoner with the intention of fighting a single monster (a Pit Fiend) in an arena battle.

Most arena fights I've seen forbid surprise rounds and teleporting out of the battlefield. That's why I didn't plan for them.

Most Arena's have nothing to do with actual gameplay, which involves a lot of going into peoples fortresses and murdering them on their turf and/or detection minigame ambushes.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The more the better for UMD characters.

Not if they burn more cash than they make back.

Arena is fine, my point is the Pit Fiend side ought to agree how Wizards win this one before complaining about your spell selection.

Is this core only Wizard VS Pit Fiend now? I can stat up a Wizard if need be.

Most Arena's have nothing to do with actual gameplay, which involves a lot of going into peoples fortresses and murdering them on their turf and/or detection minigame ambushes.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Florian]

People, moving goal posts? Still one Pit Fiend, no special setup?

[ColorBlindNinja]

People, moving goal posts? Still one Pit Fiend, no special setup?

I think some of us have different goalposts in mind and we're talking past each other.

[Florian]

I think some of us have different goalposts in mind and we're talking past each other.

I know what you have in mind, but this should warrant opening up a new thread altogether.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I know what you have in mind, but this should warrant opening up a new thread altogether.

I'm more or less finished with Commoner VS Pit Fiend discussion. I think in an arena fight, Carry the Commoner can probably win.

In an actual game environment, I don't think Carry can win without Simulacrum Spam.

[Beheld]

Arena is fine, my point is the Pit Fiend side ought to agree how Wizards win this one before complaining about your spell selection.

A Wizard wins by hiding in a demiplane, using Astral Projection, and casting 9000 free divinations before ever leaving, and then killing the Pit Fiend. It can do that, because the 9000 divinations are free.

But on the other hand, a Wizard also more conventionally adventures at lower levels or at 20 with a huge suite of buffs, and then, if he runs into the Pit Fiend in addition to all the dumb TO tricks like Shades of Trap the Soul, or SLA trap the Soul spammed on your off day, or Wish loops, or Infinite Minion Armies Including But Not Limited to Pit Fiend Minions (IMAIBNLPF), or Caster level equal to level +30 Holy Words, he can also just cast save or dies with reasonable save DCs.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A Wizard wins by hiding in a demiplane, using Astral Projection, and casting 9000 free divinations before ever leaving, and then killing the Pit Fiend. It can do that, because the 9000 divinations are free.

But on the other hand, a Wizard also more conventionally adventures at lower levels or at 20 with a huge suite of buffs, and then, if he runs into the Pit Fiend in addition to all the dumb TO tricks like Shades of Trap the Soul, or SLA trap the Soul spammed on your off day, or Wish loops, or Infinite Minion Armies Including But Not Limited to Pit Fiend Minions (IMAIBNLPF), or Caster level equal to level +30 Holy Words, he can also just cast save or dies with reasonable save DCs.

A Core only Wizard probably shouldn't have Genesis (it's in the SRD/Epic Handbook), but other than that...

Yeah, Wizards be crazy.

[Dagroth]

I have one comment/question...

What's this nonsense about "every encounter the Fighter will lose his permenancied buffs to dispel magic"?

Does every encounter at CR 20 even have Greater Dispel Magic and/or Disjunction?

The Pit Fiend's Caster Level is only 18, so he's only got a 35% chance of dispelling a CL-20 Permenancy. A Titan has a 45% chance, same with a Balor. A Grey Linnorm's (MM2) only got a 30% chance, and the other two in that book don't cast at all.

Greater Ssvaklor (MM3) no Dispel. Ancient Night Twist, same. Eldritch Giant Confessor... CL20 (45% chance to dispel).

I could go on... but the point is that even all the single CR20 creatures don't have Greater Dispel... much less the CR19 & CR18 creatures that you'll encounter in small groups.

And all that is assuming you don't find a Wizard who has some CL bonuses to do the Permenancy!

[Florian]

@Dagroth:

It´s actually a reasonable assumption. If we use the pricing for regular spellcasting services and don´t go into "custom contingencies", potions or scrolls, then CL is pretty low.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have one comment/question...

What's this nonsense about "every encounter the Fighter will lose his permenancied buffs to dispel magic"?

I think people are saying that having buffs you paid a fair amount of cash for can be dispelled, and that can be a problem.

Does every encounter at CR 20 even have Greater Dispel Magic and/or Disjunction?

I suppose that depends on what you're fighting. If I'm playing a spellcaster at these levels, that's probably going to be my first move.

The Pit Fiend's Caster Level is only 18, so he's only got a 35% chance of dispelling a CL-20 Permenancy. A Titan has a 45% chance, same with a Balor. A Grey Linnorm's (MM2) only got a 30% chance, and the other two in that book don't cast at all.

Greater Ssvaklor (MM3) no Dispel. Ancient Night Twist, same. Eldritch Giant Confessor... CL20 (45% chance to dispel).

I could go on... but the point is that even all the single CR20 creatures don't have Greater Dispel... much less the CR19 & CR18 creatures that you'll encounter in small groups.

And all that is assuming you don't find a Wizard who has some CL bonuses to do the Permenancy!

Does it cost more to have a higher level Wizard cast spells for you? I can't remember.

By default, Permanency is only going to be CL 9-10. That could definitely be a problem.

[Beheld]

I have one comment/question...

What's this nonsense about "every encounter the Fighter will lose his permenancied buffs to dispel magic"?

Does every encounter at CR 20 even have Greater Dispel Magic and/or Disjunction?

Well, perhaps? CR 19-21 on the SRD has Pit Fiends, Balors, Titans, the Tarrasque, and 21 Dragons. The lowest Caster level Dragon casts as a Sorcerer of level 9, so they all have access to dispel magic as a potential spell known, and that's only one of the twenty one of them, most of them are CL 11-13.

Pit Fiends, Balors, and Titans all have Greater Dispel at will. So if you have to fight 10 encounters as a level 20 character, at least 9 of them (there is only one Tarrasque in the universe) have at least the potential to dispel.

The Pit Fiend's Caster Level is only 18, so he's only got a 35% chance of dispelling a CL-20 Permenancy. A Titan has a 45% chance, same with a Balor. A Grey Linnorm's (MM2) only got a 30% chance, and the other two in that book don't cast at all.

That would all be super meaningful if Permanency were cast at Caster level 20, but since that would cost a whole lot more money, and would break the magic 3k threshold of availability (how many level 20 wizards do you know who are waiting around to cast spells with an XP cost for you?) the fighter literally can't afford that. Instead, he has a Caster level 9 Permanency. Which the Pit Fiend beats on a 2. (Although actually, the permanency of Detect Magic can't be dispelled if cast at CL 20 by the Pit Fiend because "This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell." But also, see below where I introduce a second wrinkle.)

I could go on... but the point is that even all the single CR20 creatures don't have Greater Dispel... much less the CR19 & CR18 creatures that you'll encounter in small groups.

Again, lots of CR 18s and 19s also have the ability to dispel Caster Level 9 permanencies. The Dragons with CL 9 probably could (there's a lot of ways for Dragon to have a much higher CL) but a Nightcrawler also has Greater Dispel Magic at will. So we still haven't found a single non Tarrasque monster ECL 18 or higher in the SRD that can't dispel this Caster level 9 Permanency.

But the main point is that these Permanencies are Caster Level 9, and therefore easy to dispel, even before we get into the possibly lower caster level of the attached spell. (By RAW, a targeted dispel rolls once against the permanency, and once against the spell made permanent, and the permanency isn't actually worth anything after the detect magic ends.)

And all that is assuming you don't find a Wizard who has some CL bonuses to do the Permenancy!

If you want to explain where you find the uncommonly available spell caster who is willing to do this for you. But if the answer is "I have my own pet Wizard buddy who does what I want" I have to question why this counts.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That would all be super meaningful if Permanency were cast at Caster level 20, but since that would cost a whole lot more money, and would break the magic 3k threshold of availability (how many level 20 wizards do you know who are waiting around to cast spells with an XP cost for you?) the fighter literally can't afford that.

I thought as much. The cost for NPC spells factors in CL, doesn't it?

If you want to explain where you find the uncommonly available spell caster who is willing to do this for you. But if the answer is "I have my own pet Wizard buddy who does what I want" I have to question why this counts.

Clearly the best option for the Fighter is to marry a high-level Wizard.

[lord_khaine]

I suppose that depends on what you're fighting. If I'm playing a spellcaster at these levels, that's probably going to be my first move.

How often are said move going to be greater dispel magic though, when the target seems to be a fighter type, whose only visible magical effect is something that makes him a little smaller? You cant know its something thats on permanent, and your running the risk of wasting a standard action on removing a +1 to hit buff on your target.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How often are said move going to be greater dispel magic though, when the target seems to be a fighter type, whose only visible magical effect is something that makes him a little smaller? You cant know its something thats on permanent, and your running the risk of wasting a standard action on removing a +1 to hit buff on your target.

Any Fighter without significant amounts of magic items would be dead long before level 20.

I'll likely have Greater Arcane Sight up, so I should have no issues knowing what buffs my opponent has.

Most enemies will be significantly weakened by being dispelled, and I can easily quicken Greater Dispel/Mage's Disjunction.

[logic_error]

Is this stupid debate still going on?

[Menzath]

So to make this all simpler we can buy a staff of permanency with 1,500xp per casting for 24,375.
With a UMD heavy build and a +15umd ring and skill focus(while only having it at cross class maximum of 11), starting with a non elite array would be about 14cha and point buy of 18, so 14/18 a +4 cloak and a total of 5 increase from level ups and a 3inherent from tomes to make it even.
That's puts UMD at a modifier of 11+15+3+8/10 for a total of 37/39 to use a staff of permanency to have a effective caster level of 18/20~37/39 when using said staff. Now we don't have to worry to much about the whole dispelling of permanenced spells. And while we are at it can't we just upgrade detect magic to arcane sight at this point?
Oh yeah and the +15 ring would cost 22,500gp.

Costly true, But on the bright side a UMD caster level higher than the typical wizard.

[Anthrowhale]

The primary mechanisms for avoiding Dispel Magic are:

(a) Killing the opponent before it can act. The Pit Fiend is surprised with near certainty. Beheld does seems to have a theory that the fighter waste surprise rounds on Persistent Image. This seems unlikely both because a convincing Persistent Image can't be made without knowing the location of the target and because the Fighter has a Trueseeing in the Ring of Spell Storing. After a surprise round, the Pit Fiend has only a 17% chance of winning initiative. If it loses initiative, it is unlikely to be able to act.
(b) Attacking from beyond 300' range (with a -2 penalty). This does not apply to the Pit Fiend, but for a Titan (for example) which has no hide score, it's easy to spot at a 300' range and attack. Particularly if flight is used to attack from 300' above, the Titan cannot close the range effectively and so Dispel Magic is ineffective.

A Balor is a somewhat tougher opponent as it has a high spot and True Seeing. It is however still likely to lose the information war and hence be killed.

The Titan cannot survive under whithering fire from 300' range. It does however have the option of using Gate to escape as it takes several rounds of fire to kill it.

The Tarrasque cannot be truly killed. In the present build significant damage also cannot be inflicted so some Bane(Magical best) arrows need to be added to bypass DR 15/epic.

For good dragons, the primary plan is to not be in conflict with them. For evil dragons, Blindsense is actually more difficult than Trueseeing in core as there is nothing like Darkstalker to defeat it implying short range surprise is infeasible. Long range surprise remains feasible, but the relevant spells (Sorcerer 11 for a CR 20 Old Red) are difficult to predict. On the upside, a dragon has relatively low default AC. Overall, it's a tricky combat with an unclear outcome where it's easy to imagine Old Red teleporting away after suffering >200 hp of damage in the first round with an unclear outcome later.

[Beheld]

See this is what I mean. Blanket statements about how a fighter automatically detects every single creature with much better detection than it all the time, and automatically has perfect use of consumables, and apparently just has magic see through walls vision or something.

If your plan is to stay 300ft away from the Titan and pepper it with arrows, even though that makes no sense because it assumes that you can detect the Titan 300ft away all the time, it literally takes one action for him to put up a wall so you can't see him and have no idea what square he is in.

[Florian]

See this is what I mean. Blanket statements about how a fighter automatically detects every single creature with much better detection than it all the time, and automatically has perfect use of consumables, and apparently just has magic see through walls vision or something.

If your plan is to stay 300ft away from the Titan and pepper it with arrows, even though that makes no sense because it assumes that you can detect the Titan 300ft away all the time, it literally takes one action for him to put up a wall so you can't see him and have no idea what square he is in.

Nah.

I guess you don´t play Fighters all too often, so you´re not experienced on how you go at building and equipping one. First step is always trying to identify which party buffs you can depend on and choosing options that enhance those and don´t overlap. Second step is then to see which holes are left to fill and which defenses to shore up. Optional third step is for solo/pvp play, replacing the external buffs from step one with stuff you can do yourself, from permanent magic items to UMD.

So, yes, the PVP-Fighter, and that´s what we´re ultimately talking about here, is very different from the PVE-Fighter in feat, equipment and tactical choices, where I´ve got to add that the PVE-Fighter has the higher operational ceiling due to better synergies, the cost of the PVP-Fighter being self-reliant.

That shift in priorities will lead to equipping Lenses of True Seeing as well as going for the Blinded Blade Style feat chain, as the circumstances make those steps necessary.

Now you could say something like "But the standard Fighter is the PVE-Fighter....", which is quite hilarious as you yourself always reuse the same tactical examples for how you´d handle some encounters on the monster-side, which are definitely derived from PVP tactics themselves.

[logic_error]

Guys, just one question:

What happens if the PF gets ONE round on the fighter.