Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Allanimal]

Not sure why I'm jumping I to this debate, as I was quite content sitting back with my popcorn watching the show...,

Beheld does seems to have a theory that the fighter waste surprise rounds on Persistent Image. This seems unlikely both because a convincing Persistent Image can't be made without knowing the location of the target and because the Fighter has a Trueseeing in the Ring of Spell Storing.
...
(b) Attacking from beyond 300' range (with a -2 penalty). This does not apply to the Pit Fiend, but for a Titan (for example) which has no hide score, it's easy to spot at a 300' range and attack.

I think you will need to rethink this strategy.

The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

The titan has invisibility and persistent image as well. You will have to close to at least 120' to spot the Titan.

[Florian]

Guys, just one question:

What happens if the PF gets ONE round on the fighter.

Then we have two pit fiends.

@Allanimal:

We´ve the usual problem with encounter distances and vision anyway.

[Lans]

Then we have two pit fiends.

@Allanimal:

We´ve the usual problem with encounter distances and vision anyway.

I think your confusing pit fiend with balor, the pit fiend can only summon an ice devil, 2 bone devils or something that seems worse than those 2 options.

[Beheld]

I think your confusing pit fiend with balor, the pit fiend can only summon an ice devil, 2 bone devils or something that seems worse than those 2 options.

It might be that the Pathfinder Pit Fiend can summon another Pit Fiend. There has been a lot of back and forth on people acting under Pathfinder vs 3.5 and assuming one or the other earlier in the thread.

[logic_error]

Then we have two pit fiends.

@Allanimal:

We´ve the usual problem with encounter distances and vision anyway.

So, can you still win? Yes or no answer, please. Also, as a registered Pit Fiend, this is not what i would do. The question is: Will you win if the Pit Fiend gets a round on you. Not, what does he do, if he does?

[Florian]

Wishing for a Gate is the single most useful opening move for the Pit Fiend. Depending on encounter distance, either use it close to the PF and in-between it and the Fighter, facing the Fighter, or place it directly in front of the Fighter, same facing and setup.

[logic_error]

Wishing for a Gate is the single most useful opening move for the Pit Fiend. Depending on encounter distance, either use it close to the PF and in-between it and the Fighter, facing the Fighter, or place it directly in front of the Fighter, same facing and setup.

I would personally greater teleport. Check your background history and then get you when you were down and out on the buffs.

[Zanos]

Wishing for a Gate is the single most useful opening move for the Pit Fiend. Depending on encounter distance, either use it close to the PF and in-between it and the Fighter, facing the Fighter, or place it directly in front of the Fighter, same facing and setup.

Wish can't duplicate 9th level spells safely.

[Lans]

So, can you still win? Yes or no answer, please. Also, as a registered Pit Fiend, this is not what i would do. The question is: Will you win if the Pit Fiend gets a round on you. Not, what does he do, if he does?

I don't think the fighters or the commoner can win, once it summons an ice devil, any bow attacks or spell get stopped by ice wall, the pit fiend summons another ice devil, and at that point its a lot of ice walls, ice storms, dispel magics and fireballs being thrown for the next hour. Not to mention the wish.

[logic_error]

I don't think the fighters or the commoner can win, once it summons an ice devil, any bow attacks or spell get stopped by ice wall, the pit fiend summons another ice devil, and at that point its a lot of ice walls, ice storms, dispel magics and fireballs being thrown for the next hour. Not to mention the wish.

Very good. Now tell me one reasonable scenario within the game where the fighter gets a round drop on the Pit Fiend.

[Lans]

Very good. Now tell me one reasonable scenario within the game where the fighter gets a round drop on the Pit Fiend.

You mean like a fighter having superior or parity in detection and sneaking abilities, largely due to magic items on the fighter, leading to a scenario where the fighter and pit fiend discover each other in a scene where neither is surprised, leading to an initiative roll where the fighter wins?

[logic_error]

You mean like a fighter having superior or parity in detection and sneaking abilities, largely due to magic items on the fighter, leading to a scenario where the fighter and pit fiend discover each other in a scene where neither is surprised, leading to an initiative roll where the fighter wins?

I mean that the Pit Fiend has a int modifier that is non-negative. And that he's not just an entry in the MM. He's up there in the stratum of hells.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I don't think the fighters or the commoner can win, once it summons an ice devil, any bow attacks or spell get stopped by ice wall, the pit fiend summons another ice devil, and at that point its a lot of ice walls, ice storms, dispel magics and fireballs being thrown for the next hour. Not to mention the wish.

Summoning Ice Devils might be a decent strategy, but the Commoner will probably Gate in a Solar on her first turn, and then possibly again on her second turn

Solars can summon monsters of their own and cast as 20th level Clerics.

I'm not sure about the Fighter.

[Lans]

Summoning Ice Devils might be a decent strategy, but the Commoner will probably Gate in a Solar on her first turn, and then possibly again on her second turn

Solars can summon monsters of their own and cast as 20th level Clerics.

I'm not sure about the Fighter.

What is the solar going to do to counter 1 wall of ice a turn? Or 4 if the pit decides to summon 2 bone devils twice?

I mean that the Pit Fiend has a int modifier that is non-negative. And that he's not just an entry in the MM. He's up there in the stratum of hells.

Well sometimes a pit fiend is unlucky and isn't traveling with a buddy, or a team, or a troupe and runs into a fighter as they are both walking along the yellow brick rode, because sometimes you just want to go for a walk and maim, or corrupt who you run across.

[ColorBlindNinja]

What is the solar going to do to counter 1 wall of ice a turn?

Dispel it? If three Solars are gated in, two can handle the Ice Devils, while the last one can fight the Pit Fiend.

Or 4 if the pit decides to summon 2 bone devils twice?

It can't, the Pit Fiend can only summon 2 Ice Devils.

Edit: While the Pit Fiend is summoning Ice Devils, the Solar(s) can beat him to a pulp.

[Beheld]

Dispel it? If three Solars are gated in, two can handle the Ice Devils, while the last one can fight the Pit Fiend.



It can't, the Pit Fiend can only summon 2 Ice Devils.

Edit: While the Pit Fiend is summoning Ice Devils, the Solar(s) can beat him to a pulp.

1) The entire premise was that the Pit Fiend got a round to summon before the commoner.

2) Gate lasts 20 rounds, The summons last 1 hour, and they all have Greater Teleport same as Pit Fiend, and can be using their turns to stall out the 20 rounds of action of the Solar.

3) Can Summon 4 Bone Devils who can also wall of ice.

[ColorBlindNinja]

1) The entire premise was that the Pit Fiend got a round to summon before the commoner.

OK, I didn't realize that.

2) Gate lasts 20 rounds, The summons last 1 hour, and they all have Greater Teleport same as Pit Fiend, and can be using their turns to stall out the 20 rounds of action of the Solar.

If they leave, I'll just leave.

3) Can Summon 4 Bone Devils who can also wall of ice.

Why do Bone Devils have Wall of Ice?

Anyway, Simulacrum Spam seems to be the most reliable way of winning.

Or maybe using Shades to emulate the trigger object Trap the Soul on the Pit Fiend. Then Gate in a Solar to kill the Bone/Ice Devil(s).

[Beheld]

If they leave, I'll just leave.

Greater Teleport + Persistent Images + Walls of Ice means they can teleport around having total concealment and throwing up walls and otherwise harassing you and the Solar without you knowing where they are. You can always leave, but you used a scroll of gate and didn't accomplish anything, so at best that's a draw.

Why do Bone Devils have Wall of Ice?

Why do Babau have dispel magic? It's just one of their spells that they use.

Or maybe using Shades to emulate the trigger object Trap the Soul on the Pit Fiend. Then Gate in a Solar to kill the Bone/Ice Devil(s).

If you have the Pit Fiends soul in a (non existent) gem why waste a gate on a possibly unsuccessful fight, just teleport away and come back in an hour.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Greater Teleport + Persistent Images + Walls of Ice means they can teleport around having total concealment and throwing up walls and otherwise harassing you and the Solar without you knowing where they are. You can always leave, but you used a scroll of gate and didn't accomplish anything, so at best that's a draw.

Both the Commoner and the Solar have True Seeing, but yes, leaving would end in a draw.

Why do Babau have dispel magic? It's just one of their spells that they use.

Just seems odd, from the name I'd expect something like Animate Dead.

If you have the Pit Fiends soul in a (non existent) gem why waste a gate on a possibly unsuccessful fight, just teleport away and come back in an hour.

That would work too.

[Cosi]

Wish can't duplicate 9th level spells safely.

It can in 3e. A scroll of gate is a magic item, and can be created with wish. The Pit Fiend doesn't even have to pay XP for it.

[Zanos]

It can in 3e. A scroll of gate is a magic item, and can be created with wish. The Pit Fiend doesn't even have to pay XP for it.

That will take two actions and a DC 37 UMD checks with the pit fiend's all of no ranks in UMD. UMD is trained only.

[Cosi]

That will take two actions and a DC 37 UMD checks with the pit fiend's all of no ranks in UMD. UMD is trained only.

A scroll lasts until used, so the Pit Fiend could simply wish for it at ... literally any point in the past ever. As far as UMD goes, there's nothing stopping the Pit Fiend from taking a cross class rank in UMD and also having wished for a +30 UMD item, or just wishing for something that doesn't take the check.

[logic_error]

So let me summarise:

This entire debate is about the battle between a hyper paranoid fighter that runs around buffed all the time, and a stupid, absent minded pit fiend with IQ of 60, who just happens to be picking the daisies in the same garden where the fighter is practising his PF slaying fantasies. This about right?

[Zanos]

A scroll lasts until used, so the Pit Fiend could simply wish for it at ... literally any point in the past ever. As far as UMD goes, there's nothing stopping the Pit Fiend from taking a cross class rank in UMD and also having wished for a +30 UMD item, or just wishing for something that doesn't take the check.

There is no scroll of gate in the pit fiend's listed possessions.

The pit fiend stat block stops him from having a rank in UMD. It's a pit fiend. Not a customized pit fiend to wish for scrolls of gate.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is no scroll of gate in the pit fiend's listed possessions.

The pit fiend stat block stops him from having a rank in UMD. It's a pit fiend. Not a customized pit fiend to wish for scrolls of gate.

There's nothing stopping the Pit Fiend from using its Wish SLA to replicate Simulacrum and create a minion that has a Gate SLA (like a Titan).

[Cosi]

There is no scroll of gate in the pit fiend's listed possessions.

The pit fiend stat block stops him from having a rank in UMD. It's a pit fiend. Not a customized pit fiend to wish for scrolls of gate.

Again, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that you can expect to run an optimized Fighter against an off-the-shelf Pit Fiend and prove anything. If the Fighter isn't following the DMG build table, the Pit Fiend is entitled to do things like change around his stat block and use his abilities (neither of which changes CR/EL).

If you use "20th level Fighter" as starting point for further optimization, you need to extend the same courtesy to the Pit Fiend.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Again, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that you can expect to run an optimized Fighter against an off-the-shelf Pit Fiend and prove anything. If the Fighter isn't following the DMG build table, the Pit Fiend is entitled to do things like change around his stat block and use his abilities (neither of which changes CR/EL).

If you use "20th level Fighter" as starting point for further optimization, you need to extend the same courtesy to the Pit Fiend.

I agree in principle, but I think most of the posters are only interested in the stock Pit Fiend from the MM.

I could be wrong.

[Menzath]

I think one of the original goal posts was a stock pit fiend. No ands or ifs.
This may have changed along the way, but that is how it started.

[Zanos]

Again, I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that you can expect to run an optimized Fighter against an off-the-shelf Pit Fiend and prove anything.

You prove that fighters are competitive against WotC optimized monsters, and it's a common assertion that they are not.

If the Fighter isn't following the DMG build table, the Pit Fiend is entitled to do things like change around his stat block and use his abilities (neither of which changes CR/EL).

The argument is that a fighter can be built that can defeat a pit fiend, not that a fighter can be built to beat any custom pit fiend. Considering a pit fiend's wealth of customization options if you allow it to pick feats and skills then we easily just end up in an eternal "but then my side does x" where the two parties just build around each other forever. A stock pit fiend gives us an actual stationary target to aim for.

If you use "20th level Fighter" as starting point for further optimization, you need to extend the same courtesy to the Pit Fiend.

Pit Fiends are devils, so I extend no courtesy.

[Anthrowhale]

...The titan has invisibility and persistent image as well. You will have to close to at least 120' to spot the Titan.

While a valid concern you can close and then reopen the range. The bow has the 'seeking' enhancement implying that total concealment imposes 0% miss chance. It's also worth remembering that a Titan is a CR21 creature implying the fighter should have an extra 200kgp to spend by ECL21.

For those seeking to upgrade from a stock Pit Fiend to a custom Pit Fiend (as Zanos puts it), are you ready to concede that a stock Pit Fiend loses? If not, why bring up a custom Pit Fiend? I'm aware of no plausible attack scenario for a stock Pit Fiend.