Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Anthrowhale]

Then the enemy has had time to prep minions, illusions, and is also sneaking.
Because that's In their stat block.

That seems reasonable, but are you looking at the same Marut I am? There are no illusions in the SLAs, the organization is solitary, and the Hide is +1?

[Coretron03]

That seems reasonable, but are you looking at the same Marut I am? There are no illusions in the SLAs, the organization is solitary, and the Hide is +1?

I think they mean in general, not just the Marut.

[Menzath]

Sorry for not clarifying. Yes I meant enemies in general that do have these abilities in their stat block(and therefore calculated CR).

I mean if a player has the prerogative to be sneaking everywhere during an adventuring day, why wouldn't monsters lay traps and shore their defenses with standard action abilities, or if they have enough divination magic each day, find out what might threaten their life that day(or the next) and pre-emptively stop it?

I mean, smart things being smart? Or heck even a not to bright creature with high wisdom is still very cunning and will use natural terrain or corridors to their best effect.

[Anthrowhale]

I generally think monsters should be free to use the tactics that their abilities enable.

To the extent that they Charm/Dominate/Create allies those traditionally do count in the encounter level, but summoned/animated allies do not.

[Beheld]

Here's the problem. The average wizard loses to 8 Slaads too. Just saying. Do you really think mr.truestrike in the article I linked would really stand a chance? According to the SRD this is a very difficult fight.

The average Wizard probably doesn't lose to 8 Slaads, as lots of enemies are sort of ideal for the Wizard, and lower powered enemies allow the Wizard to make use of techniques of higher level that they don't have. So for example, 8 Slaads would run into a Wizards contingency, then his ability to teleport away and divine them and come back.

Also, has a variety of options by way of Shapechange that he could perform to damage and kill all of them quite effectively, in addition to things like Wail of Banshee that would thin them out very quickly.

All that, and even if he died, it was his Astral Projection.

A single Balor would be much more dangerous to the Wizard than the pack of Slaads.

Not to mention, we certainly aren't comparing "the average fighter" so it's pretty disingenous to say "the average wizard" when what you mean is "the wizard I claim with no evidence is average, and by that I mean, prepares 100% direct damage effects."

The D20SRD encounter generator still lists it as a very hard fight. Is the SRD unreliable? Honest question. I've used the D20 SRD encounter generator for years. Put the party at 1 and place the Fighter as 20. Then put in your combination. It's listed as a very difficult encounter and the book even acknowledges it's more dangerous at times than overpowering because it's not always immediately obvious that you should run. The book implies in an encounter like this running is a good choice as the chance of someone dying is high. The party level here is listed as 16 whereas the EL is 19. This is a very difficult fight. It's also why the pit fiend argument is so important. Situation, setup, equipment, who the fighter is, who the pit fiend is. This is very important because no one is denying that the death of a fighter is a real possibility. The argument is depending on circumstance this can very well shift. As a very high difficulty encounter would.

This is why I keep explaining testing methodology, and EL and CR rules. Saying "it is very difficult" is actually misleading if you don't understand what that means for the purpose of the testing and methodology in light of CR.

Very difficult covers everything from 35% resources expenditure, 90% of victory to 45% chance of death. In this case, EL 19 against single level 20 PC is about 45% chance of death. That's intentional, because we are trying to test to see if the single PC lives up to his position, and the reason why is because we need that 50% win rate to measure PC success meaningfully.

There's no need to get angry and utilize caps. We're all civil here. I ask that you please calm down.

I am quite calm, you can tell because the evil terrible monstrous act of pressing the capslock that signifies that I am insane with rage was used to represent my summary of my opponents position.

No one is lying. In your anger you misconstrue everything as a lie. However, right here, you're most clearly incorrect. All your scenarios involving a pit fiend vs a fighter was an arena fight. Either that or you fail to understand the definition when it comes to gaming and competitions to what an arena fight is. You can call it a death match if you'd like. The point is still valid.

No, that's the point, none of them were an arena fight. I understand how you made this mistake, because you lack the intellectual honesty to refrain from attributing positions I haven't made to me, but just so you can understand:

I actually haven't presented any scenarios at all. Because I offered to run scenarios as a game, and none of those are anywhere in this thread, so all of the not death match, not arena fights, real game situations that I was going to run, haven't been presented at all.

I always thought pvp is player versus player and I always assumed that you playing a pit fiend in a combat scenario with another player is most definitely player versus player.

Again, me DMing is not PvP. If you choose to use your later twisted nonsense definition that no one ever means when they say PvP and you didn't mean either, but you cornered yourself into, where you claim that 100% of real D&D games are PvP, then I can only question how you can claim that my PvP real game doesn't represent real games, when you yourself are arguing that all D&D games are PvP.

That's fine but it doesn't go on to prove or disprove your argument. I don't care for the match between you and Anthro. A single scenario or a set of scenario's is irrelevant.

As someone who has completely failed, intentionally so, to understand my argument at every turn, you really aren't the best guide for that. My argument, that there are aspects of playing "real games" that Anthro is ignoring or failing to understand, would be proved by a scenario which demonstrated those real game aspects that Anthro missed.

To the extent that they Charm/Dominate/Create allies those traditionally do count in the encounter level, but summoned/animated allies do not.

Too bad you don't get a will save to disbelieve the rules you don't like. Or that might actually matter.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I generally think monsters should be free to use the tactics that their abilities enable.

To the extent that they Charm/Dominate/Create allies those traditionally do count in the encounter level, but summoned/animated allies do not.

Why not? Can you cite some sort of rule that says that?

[Anthrowhale]

Why not? Can you cite some sort of rule that says that?

Yes. DMG, page 48 under "multiple monsters and Encounter Levels" details the rules for an encounter level.

Obviously, if one monster has a given Challenge Rating, more than one monster represents a greater challenge than that. You can use Table 3-1: Encounter Numbers to determine the Encounter Level of a group of monsters...

There are no exceptions stated for Charmed/Dominated/Created monsters anywhere, so these default rules apply.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes. DMG, page 48 under "multiple monsters and Encounter Levels" details the rules for an encounter level.

There are no exceptions stated for Charmed/Dominated/Created monsters anywhere, so these default rules apply.

It those abilities are in the monster's stat block, they should be used; the monster's CR doesn't change.

[Anthrowhale]

It those abilities are in the monster's stat block, they should be used; the monster's CR doesn't change.

Sure: it's the same monster regardless of what abilities it has used.

But the Encounter Level does change due to the addition of all the other monsters according to the rules cited.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sure: it's the same monster regardless of what abilities it has used.

But the Encounter Level does change due to the addition of all the other monsters according to the rules cited.

In this scenario, that makes no difference.

[Anthrowhale]

In this scenario, that makes no difference.

I've lost track of which scenario is "this" scenario, but anything which pushes the encounter level to 21 hits 'overpowering' for a single ECL20 character. The text for 'overpowering' is:

The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose...

Given this, losing is no longer evidence that Fighters suck.

Everything in the EL 17-20 range count as 'very difficult', meaning:

One PC might very well die...

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've lost track of which scenario is "this" scenario, but anything which pushes the encounter level to 21 hits 'overpowering' for a single ECL20 character. The text for 'overpowering' is:

Given this, losing is no longer evidence that Fighters suck.

Everything in the EL 17-20 range count as 'very difficult', meaning:

The challenge was can Fighter kill a Pit Fiend; if the Pit Fiend isn't allowed to use several of its SLAs, then that's not a point in the Fighter's favor.

[Beheld]

Yes. DMG, page 48 under "multiple monsters and Encounter Levels" details the rules for an encounter level.

There are no exceptions stated for Charmed/Dominated/Created monsters anywhere, so these default rules apply.

Literally lying about the rules that have already been cited in this thread.

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Literally lying about the rules that have already been cited in this thread.

Good to know, thanks for quoting that.

[Anthrowhale]

The challenge was can Fighter kill a Pit Fiend; if the Pit Fiend isn't allowed to use several of its SLAs, then that's not a point in the Fighter's favor.

Agreed.

But since a Pit Fiend is one step from Overpowering, losing to a Pit Fiend with minions that push the encounter level higher is not evidence that Fighter is underpowered---in fact if the minions make the difference this is evidence that the Fighter is at the correct power level.

If you really want to prove that a fighter is underpowered, you should do with an EL 16 encounter which a solo ECL 20 character is supposed to be able to handle with high odds of success. If the Fighter loses to that, then it's clearly underpowered according to guidance in the DMG. Everything of a higher encounter level might give evidence or "points", but is inconclusive given DMG descriptions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Agreed.

But since a Pit Fiend is one step from Overpowering, losing to a Pit Fiend with minions that push the encounter level higher is not evidence that Fighter is underpowered---in fact if the minions make the difference this is evidence that the Fighter is at the correct power level.

If you really want to prove that a fighter is underpowered, you should do with an EL 16 encounter which a solo ECL 20 character is supposed to be able to handle with high odds of success. If the Fighter loses to that, then it's clearly underpowered according to guidance in the DMG. Everything of a higher encounter level might give evidence or "points", but is inconclusive given DMG descriptions.

- According to the rules that Beheld quoted, the Pit Fiend is CR 20 regardless of how many Devils it summons or undead it creates.

- I just realized that a Mummy's Despair only can affect someone once in 24 hours, that shouldn't be a problem for the Pit Fiend.

- As for Fighter VS a CR 16 monster, how about a Plantar?

[Anthrowhale]

- According to the rules that Beheld quoted, the Pit Fiend is CR 20 regardless of how many Devils it summons or undead it creates.

The CR of a Pit Fiend is not under dispute---it's stated very explicitly in the Pit Fiend stat block.

Are you trying to prove that a Fighter is inadequate? If so, you must pay attention to Encounter Level because guidance around encounter difficulty is provided w.r.t. Encounter Level.

- I just realized that a Mummy's Despair only can affect someone once in 24 hours, that shouldn't be a problem for the Pit Fiend.

It is a lethal problem for the Pit Fiend in the long run because for every mummy-day, the Pit Fiend has a 5% chance of failing the save making it easily attacked by the mummy and eventually contracting Mummy Rot which is lethal to a Pit Fiend. As a consequence, living with mummies is a suicidally paranoid strategy.

- As for Fighter VS a CR 16 monster, how about a Plantar?

A Planetar is certainly a good challenge, but is there a non-good equivalent? I think that's reasonable in the sense that many/most parties don't fight good opponents in real games.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The CR of a Pit Fiend is not under dispute---it's stated very explicitly in the Pit Fiend stat block.

Are you trying to prove that a Fighter is inadequate? If so, you must pay attention to Encounter Level because guidance around encounter difficulty is provided w.r.t. Encounter Level.

No, if a level 20 Fighter can't handle a CR 20 monster that uses its abilities intelligently, the Fighter is deficient.

It is a lethal problem for the Pit Fiend in the long run because for every mummy-day, the Pit Fiend has a 5% chance of failing the save making it easily attacked by the mummy and eventually contracting Mummy Rot which is lethal to a Pit Fiend. As a consequence, living with mummies is a suicidally paranoid strategy.

Why are the Mummies attacking the Pit Fiend? He has Diplomacy, and he's immune for 24 hours whether he makes the save or not.

A Planetar is certainly a good challenge, but is there a non-good equivalent? I think that's reasonable in the sense that many/most parties don't fight good opponents in real games.

Evil parties don't exist? Misunderstandings don't occur between good creatures?

[Anthrowhale]

No, if a level 20 Fighter can't handle a CR 20 monster that uses its abilities intelligently, the Fighter is deficient.

I'm not sure where the problem is---I've quoted the relevant rules and you are asserting they don't apply? Do you have any reason to do so?

Why are the Mummies attacking the Pit Fiend? He has Diplomacy, and he's immune for 24 hours whether he makes the save or not.

Evil isn't known for getting along with Evil.

Evil parties don't exist?

They do, but they are evil, and the Halfling Sniper definitely is not. If we wanted the evil version (which I did consider due to Blasphemy immunity), then we would have to rebuild.

Misunderstandings don't occur between good creatures?

They can, but that would be atypical/nonrepresentative. The general plan is to ally with good creatures.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm not sure where the problem is---I've quoted the relevant rules and you are asserting they don't apply? Do you have any reason to do so?

- If the CR for the Pit Fiend doesn't go up if it summons aid, why should its ECL increase? Edit: Since you don't get XP for summoned allies.

- Those rules are meaningless for the contest at hand; can a Fighter kill a Pit Fiend?

Evil isn't known for getting along with Evil.

Diplomacy doesn't care.

They do, but they are evil, and the Halfling Sniper definitely is not. If we wanted the evil version (which I did consider due to Blasphemy immunity), then we would have to rebuild.

So in other words, if the Fighter isn't custom built to fight a Planetar, he loses?

They can, but that would be atypical/nonrepresentative. The general plan is to ally with good creatures.

- Not all parties are good-aligned, many are neutral, some are evil.

- In some cases, the good-aligned monster might be under mind control, they could be an Ice Assassin/Simulacrum; there are plenty of reasons you might fight good monsters.

[Beheld]

- As for Fighter VS a CR 16 monster, how about a Plantar?

The Fighter should have a 100% chance to beat the Planatar, using only 20% of his resources. For a true actual test you would need to run 4 Planatars.

Why are the Mummies attacking the Pit Fiend? He has Diplomacy, and he's immune for 24 hours whether he makes the save or not.

Factually, the mummies just never get a chance to attack the Pit Fiend even if they want to. Gaze attacks have a range of 30ft, the Pit Fiend is perfectly capable of just being more than 30ft up from the Mummies at any and all times.

If, for some reason, he did want to test himself on their despair, he can just use illusions so that the mummies don't know where he is, and then, even if he fails the save, he can greater teleport while paralyzed.

The idea that the Pit Fiend is in grave danger because of some mummies he creates is a joke.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The Fighter should have a 100% chance to beat the Planatar, using only 20% of his resources. For a true actual test you would need to run 4 Planatars.

Planetars cast as 17th level Clerics, I'm pretty sure one would be sufficient.

Unless you were joking? Hard to tell with tone on the internet.

[Beheld]

Planetars cast as 17th level Clerics, I'm pretty sure one would be sufficient.

Unless you were joking? Hard to tell with tone on the internet.

I'm saying strictly by CR. Surely especially the only good against Pit Fiends fighter would probably die to one, but according to the rules, he should beat a single one using 20% of his resources.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm saying strictly by CR. Surely especially the only good against Pit Fiends fighter would probably die to one, but according to the rules, he should beat a single one using 20% of his resources.

OK, I get what you're saying.
With that said, 4 Planetars are going to slaughter a level 20 Fighter, I should think. Action economy alone would be enough for them to win.

[Beheld]

OK, I get what you're saying.
With that said, 4 Planetars are going to slaughter a level 20 Fighter, I should think. Action economy alone would be enough for them to win.

The fact that he has no chance against 4 CR 16 enemies is probably evidence that he's not a real level 20 character. People talk about action advantage, but if your action is to save or die any and all enemies at the same time with a level appropriate DC, then action advantage isn't a thing. It's only a thing because Fighters aren't real characters.

EDIT: also read up for my edit about mummies.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The fact that he has no chance against 4 CR 16 enemies is probably evidence that he's not a real level 20 character. People talk about action advantage, but if your action is to save or die any and all enemies at the same time with a level appropriate DC, then action advantage isn't a thing. It's only a thing because Fighters aren't real characters.

Very true, although in fairness, Planetars are pretty tough.

Edit:

Factually, the mummies just never get a chance to attack the Pit Fiend even if they want to. Gaze attacks have a range of 30ft, the Pit Fiend is perfectly capable of just being more than 30ft up from the Mummies at any and all times.

If, for some reason, he did want to test himself on their despair, he can just use illusions so that the mummies don't know where he is, and then, even if he fails the save, he can greater teleport while paralyzed.

The idea that the Pit Fiend is in grave danger because of some mummies he creates is a joke.

Agreed, that seem like straw-grasping on Anthro's part.

[Anthrowhale]

- If the CR for the Pit Fiend doesn't go up if it summons aid, why should its ECL increase? Edit: Since you don't get XP for summoned allies.

A Pit Fiend does not have an ECL because it is "Level Adjustment: -". Presumably you mean Encounter Level? The rules for encounter level and XP are related but they are not linked---you do not get XP based on encounter level.

- Those rules are meaningless for the contest at hand; can a Fighter kill a Pit Fiend?

In any circumstance? The answer is surely yes. In all circumstances? The answer is surely no. In typical circumstances? That seems hard to judge given what we've seen so far.

Nevertheless, there is a broader question: Is a Fighter necessarily underpowered compared to what the game expects? You cannot test this with an EL 21+ encounter because the game says an ECL 20 character should lose.

Diplomacy doesn't care.

Alignment certainly does care.

So in other words, if the Fighter isn't custom built to fight a Planetar, he loses?

Beheld sets a bad example by actively misinterpreting what is said. Please avoid that---this is not what I said.

- Not all parties are good-aligned, many are neutral, some are evil.

And in an evil party, the Halfling Sniper would be evil and would have different items. In particular, the Sniper would not have a Holy bow since that incurs a negative level. Instead, an Unholy bow would make some sense. The Planetar may be surprised, almost certainly loses initiative, and could be shot full of arrows before it gets to attack. Even if it somehow manages to attack I don't see an obviouw win other than "get allies" which would obviate the EL 16 status.

- In some cases, the good-aligned monster might be under mind control, they could be an Ice Assassin/Simulacrum; there are plenty of reasons you might fight good monsters.

Yeah, it could happen.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A Pit Fiend does not have an ECL because it is "Level Adjustment: -". Presumably you mean Encounter Level? The rules for encounter level and XP are related but they are not linked---you do not get XP based on encounter level.

Yes, I meant EL, and there are rules for gaining XP bases on EL.

In any circumstance? The answer is surely yes. In all circumstances? The answer is surely no. In typical circumstances? That seems hard to judge given what we've seen so far.

In this circumstance, which is what matters.

Nevertheless, there is a broader question: Is a Fighter necessarily underpowered compared to what the game expects? You cannot test this with an EL 21+ encounter because the game says an ECL 20 character should lose.

The game says that a Pit Fiend is CR 20; a Fighter should be able to kill one if it's played intelligently if he's a viable class.

Alignment certainly does care.

No, Diplomacy means they won't attack the Pit Fiend.

Beheld sets a bad example by actively misinterpreting what is said. Please avoid that---this is not what I said.

Then use your build as is; if you have to re-stat your Fighter, that implies the class sucks.

And in an evil party, the Halfling Sniper would be evil and would have different items. In particular, the Sniper would not have a Holy bow since that incurs a negative level. Instead, an Unholy bow would make some sense. The Planetar may be surprised, almost certainly loses initiative, and could be shot full of arrows before it gets to attack. Even if it somehow manages to attack I don't see an obviouw win other than "get allies" which would obviate the EL 16 status.

- Your party could also be neutral.

- You should never assume you get a surprise round, that's not probable in actual play.

- Planetars cast as 17th level Clerics; we all know how Fighters fair against spellcasters.

Yeah, it could happen.

How will you handle it if it does happen?

[Anthrowhale]

Yes, I meant EL, and there are rules for gaining XP bases on EL.

Where and what are they? Citation needed.

In this circumstance, which is what matters.

Err... which circumstance is "this circumstance"? The cage match? The cage match was only picked because I though there was a chance it could be settled without a DM. That was wrong, so things are unresolved. The cage match also seems quite nonrepresentative of typical encounters so it's not clear to me it matters much.

The game says that a Pit Fiend is CR 20; a Fighter should be able to kill one if it's played intelligently if he's a viable class.

On the one hand, a full attack with the +5 oil on (which lasts 20 hours) is an expected kill against a Pit Fiend and it seems likely that the Sniper will get that off in an EL 20 encounter. On the other hand, if Pit Fiend organizes an EL 21+ encounter the Fighter is supposed to lose according to the game.

No, Diplomacy means they won't attack the Pit Fiend.

You have heard the story about the scorpion that wants to cross the river, right? Diplomacy is extremely powerful in core (maybe to powerful), but I do not expect a neutral DM to allow Diplomacy to fully determine the outcome.

Then use your build as is; if you have to re-stat your Fighter, that implies the class sucks.

The change suggested involved no changes in stats---just an obvious orientation shift towards evil and it's impact on chosen items.

- You should never assume you get a surprise round, that's not probable in actual play.

I disagree. The investment in stealth and observation is mechanically powerful and should have impact in real play under real DMs. If you are asking me to not ignore Diplomacy it only seems fair if you do not ignore Hide, Move Silently, and Spot.

- Planetars cast as 17th level Clerics; we all know how Fighters fair against spellcasters.

Planetars have spells prepared specified so you aren't free to optimize them as much as you might imagine.

How will you handle it if it does happen?

We'd have to play it out tactically. Chewing through the DR 10/evil may be viable given the Planetar doesn't seem to have a particularly lethal attack form.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Where and what are they? Citation needed.

Multiple Monsters and Encounter Levels
Obviously, if one monster has a given Challenge Rating, more than one monster represents a greater challenge than that. You can use Table 3–1: Encounter Numbers to determine thencounter Level of a group of monsters, as well as to determine how many monsters equate to a given Encounter Level (useful in balancing an encounter with a PC party).

Err... which circumstance is "this circumstance"? The cage match? The cage match was only picked because I though there was a chance it could be settled without a DM. That was wrong, so things are unresolved. The cage match also seems quite nonrepresentative of typical encounters so it's not clear to me it matters much.

Yeah, the Pit Find VS Fighter scenario, that's what we're testing.

On the one hand, a full attack with the +5 oil on (which lasts 20 hours) is an expected kill against a Pit Fiend and it seems likely that the Sniper will get that off in an EL 20 encounter. On the other hand, if Pit Fiend organizes an EL 21+ encounter the Fighter is supposed to lose according to the game.

So, if the Pit Fiend uses its SLAs to get back up, the Fighter loses. Is that what you're saying?
Edit: Since when is a CR 21 encounter too much for a level 20 character? 3+ the party's EL is considered a boss fight, isn't it?

You have heard the story about the scorpion that wants to cross the river, right? Diplomacy is extremely powerful in core (maybe to powerful), but I do not expect a neutral DM to allow Diplomacy to fully determine the outcome.

Why? That's how Diplomacy works RAW, and if the DM wants the Mummies to team up with the Pit Fiend, that's what's going to happen.

The change suggested involved no changes in stats---just an obvious orientation shift towards evil and it's impact on chosen items.

Why would you need to change your alignment? As I said earlier, there are legitimate reasons the Planetar might fight a good-aligned character.

I disagree. The investment in stealth and observation is mechanically powerful and should have impact in real play under real DMs. If you are asking me to not ignore Diplomacy it only seems fair if you do not ignore Hide, Move Silently, and Spot.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm saying that they're not reliable. How many fights begin with you entering a room and stumbling across a pack of monsters?

Planetars have spells prepared specified so you aren't free to optimize them as much as you might imagine.

The SRD says typical spells prepared, that implies they can be altered.

Spoiler: Planetar, Typical Spells Prepared

Show

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/8/8/7/7/6/6/4/3/2; save DC 16 + spell level)
0—create water, detect magic, guidance, resistance (2), virtue; 1st—bless (2), cause fear, divine favor (2), entropic shield, inflict light wounds*, shield of faith; 2nd—aid*, align weapon, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength (2), consecrate, eagle’s splendor, hold person; 3rd—contagion*, daylight, invisibility purge, prayer (2), summon monster III, wind wall; 4th— death ward, dismissal, inflict critical wounds*, neutralize poison (2), summon monster IV; 5th— break enchantment, mass inflict light wounds*, dispel evil, mark of justice, plane shift, righteous might; 6th—banishment, greater dispel magic, harm*, heal, heroes’ feast, mass cure moderate wounds; 7th— dictum, disintegrate*, holy word, regenerate; 8th—holy aura*, mass cure critical wounds, shield of law; 9th—implosion, summon monster IX (good)*.

That's not a horrible spell selection, and they have some pretty nasty SLAs to boot.

We'd have to play it out tactically. Chewing through the DR 10/evil may be viable given the Planetar doesn't seem to have a particularly lethal attack form.

They have spells, for offense, defense, healing, and buffing. Waves of Exhaustion alone is pretty devastating, and once your HP is too low, it'll use Power Word Stun.