Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[ColorBlindNinja]

I don't think anyone is, because we all agree that if you aren't spending your standard actions concentrating on detect magic, then you aren't getting "pinged" with knowledge of magical auras. If you stop concentrating, you stop getting information.

I think Anthrowhale's argument is that Detect Magic isn't concentration anymore, but permanent. Thus, you don't have to concentrate every round to get info with Detect Magic.

[Beheld]

There is a simple way to resolve this:

How about Beheld plays a PitFiend. Any other guy voluntarily plays the optimised fighter. Both get same prep time and full idea of each other's capabilities. Just decide on the WBL and the features allowed within the strict rules of Core.

1) The requirement that the monster has to be a Pit Fiend and definitely will be is like 14 different free gifts to the Fighter. The entire point is that if you built a Schroedinger's fighter who always has the optimal build against the specific enemy he faces, that this already proves the fighter is a problem.

2) There are still tons of issues that always have to be ironed out, like treasure for the Pit Fiend, or how detect magic (doesn't) work or how sniping works, or the actual cause of the run in and associated battlefield locations.

I think Anthrowhale's argument is that Detect Magic isn't concentration anymore, but permanent. Thus, you don't have to concentrate every round to get info with Detect Magic.

I think his argument makes no sense, because Detect Magic detects magic in an area, and you have to move that area and study the same area for 3 rounds to get the info, and studying that area takes concentration.

[Anthrowhale]

While no one actually uses candles of invocation in real games, only someone who has never tried to buy permanencied spells in real games would ever actually contend that they are fairly plausible. Anyone who has actually tried would have quickly discovered how incredibly worthless they are, since they get auto dispelled by anything even vaguely approaching level appropriate.

I've certainly used permanency in real games. It an expendable of unclear duration, and a 3K gp expendable is acceptable at this level. In this sense it's something like a potion, only better.

Actually, it only gives cover if a line from your square passes through an object that provides cover. So you know, if the mummies don't line up in a nice long line, and the Pit Fiend is in the air, then you probably don't have cover with respect to all of them from many locations.

I think this is your way of saying "Yes, I was wrong about the 10' requirement". You are also wrong about the line as well.

Or you know, you could quote the actual rules...

I quoted from the 4th sentence of hide. The rules for sniping do not say that you are revealed---they say that you need to make another hide check with a -20 penalty.

Except that you declare studying to be a move action for no reason, this has always been my point.

That is not what you said. What you said is:

...unless you use your standard action to detect magic every round of your life, you don't get "pinged"...

which you are now admitting was wrong.

But while we are on the subject, you actually can't Permanency Detect Magic on your fighter at all. It's literally against the rules.

I assume you missed the explanation "(via Ring of Spell Storing)". A ring of spell storing allows a fighter to cast permanency. It's a quite standard core item.

[emeraldstreak]

Also, magic items are expensive; are you planning on using them throughout your whole career?

A common misconception among people who don't do PvE tests. Expenses are dwarfed by treasure gained. That's why earlier I posited that a meaningful test for lvl 20 UMD PC would be defeating one Pit Fiend per day for an extended period of time; not simply one poor fiend clobbered by lvl 20 wealth. But even so, a pit fiend is worth so much UMD ought to defeat it sustainably.

Why be a Fighter then? Why not be a Rogue, or a Bard, or a Commoner?

Now that's why I've been trying to focus the discussion on the Fighter's features since page one, but for some reason newcomers keep reframing the question into a larger problem.

[Beheld]

I've certainly used permanency in real games. It an expendable of unclear duration, and a 3K gp expendable is acceptable at this level. In this sense it's something like a potion, only better.

I think this is your way of saying "Yes, I was wrong about the 10' requirement". You are also wrong about the line as well.

That is not what you said. What you said is: which you are now admitting was wrong.

Except that is what I said. You do not get pinged when you move within 60ft of magic unless you are concentrating every round. If you aren't concentrating, you don't get pinged.

I assume you missed the explanation "(via Ring of Spell Storing)". A ring of spell storing allows a fighter to cast permanency. It's a quite standard core item.

Did you summon a Genie to wish for the ring of spell storing that you gave your fighter for free without cost?

[Menzath]

My 2 sense on permanent detect magic in this derailed thread, after reading detect magic, permanency, and the persistent spell metamagic.

By strict RAW It removes the need to concentrate on the spell. Since concentration is only listed in the spell duration, and no where in the context of how the spell works, once permanent you are always "studying" whatever is in the cone in front of you.

Also, I skipped like 3 pages, is there a reason why normal wbl is not given to the fighter since every character is considered to have wbl to make them useful against correct challenge rating encounters?

[Lans]

But even if you meant EL, you're still wrong, because that doesn't change for party level. EL does sometimes change (for example, fighting undead without a Cleric is a higher EL encounter per the DMG). If a 1st level party fights a CR 5 monster, that's not a different EL than the same party fighting it at 10th level, the EL is just in a different position relative to the PCs and the challenge gives more XP (and is considered more difficult).

So, if the pit fiend creates undead the encounter level is raised as the party does not include a cleric, so we should be using a level 21 fighter?

1) The requirement that the monster has to be a Pit Fiend and definitely will be is like 14 different free gifts to the Fighter. The entire point is that if you built a Schroedinger's fighter who always has the optimal build against the specific enemy he faces, that this already proves the fighter is a problem.

Is any one really arguing whether the fighter is weak, problematic, or underpowered? I mean this entire thread is about whether a core fighter can beat a pit fiend with basically a life time of for knowledge. I mean we are basically arguing whether the fighter passes with a 59.6% grade

2) There are still tons of issues that always have to be ironed out, like treasure for the Pit Fiend, or how detect magic (doesn't) work or how sniping works, or the actual cause of the run in and associated battlefield locations.

also true, we could run both scenarios, or just postulate of what happens if X is ruled G way.

[Beheld]

Also, I skipped like 3 pages, is there a reason why normal wbl is not given to the fighter since every character is considered to have wbl to make them useful against correct challenge rating encounters?

I don't know why the Fighter gets more than WBL either. But apparently the fighter player decided they need more than WBL.

[logic_error]

1) The requirement that the monster has to be a Pit Fiend and definitely will be is like 14 different free gifts to the Fighter. The entire point is that if you built a Schroedinger's fighter who always has the optimal build against the specific enemy he faces, that this already proves the fighter is a problem.

2) There are still tons of issues that always have to be ironed out, like treasure for the Pit Fiend, or how detect magic (doesn't) work or how sniping works, or the actual cause of the run in and associated battlefield locations.

I am sure that a competent player (which rules me out) with the right treasure can still do this. ANnyone else?

[ColorBlindNinja]

A common misconception among people who don't do PvE tests. Expenses are dwarfed by treasure gained. That's why earlier I posited that a meaningful test for lvl 20 UMD PC would be defeating one Pit Fiend per day for an extended period of time; not simply one poor fiend clobbered by lvl 20 wealth. But even so, a pit fiend is worth so much UMD ought to defeat it sustainably.

Can the Fighter really afford to burn magic items in every encounter?

Now that's why I've been trying to focus the discussion on the Fighter's features since page one, but for some reason newcomers keep reframing the question into a larger problem.

What does the Fighter have (besides higher BAB) that a Rogue with Fighter bonus feats doesn't?

[DEMON]

What does the Fighter have (besides higher BAB) that a Rogue with Fighter bonus feats doesn't?

Hmm...High For save and Handle Animal and Ride for class skills?

[ryu]

Hmm...High For save and Handle Animal and Ride for class skills?

Both of which easily compensated for by more efficient use of wealth through class skill UMD, more skill points, and good old fashioned using the freed up cash for any leftover bonuses.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hmm...High For save and Handle Animal and Ride for class skills?

The Fort save is nice, Handle Animal could be useful, but why would a Rogue care about Ride?

[Beheld]

Can the Fighter really afford to burn magic items in every encounter?

It depends what your goals are and how efficiently you burn them. Truthfully, a fighter could go very far by buying a +30 UMD item and a Staff of Holy Word and Word of Choas and being Chaotic Good. You can kill like, mostly everything you would ever fight with that just emulating a stupidly high caster level.

And then you could buy a new staff when you run out.

On the other hand, anyone spending 3k on "better potion" (permancied spell) that might last you a day is probably going to run out of money really quick.

People who carry around lots of potions and oils basically never use them, because they run into the problem where level appropriate enemies have both defenders advantage and better detection systems than PCs.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It depends what your goals are and how efficiently you burn them. Truthfully, a fighter could go very far by buying a +30 UMD item and a Staff of Holy Word and Word of Choas and being Chaotic Good. You can kill like, mostly everything you would ever fight with that just emulating a stupidly high caster level.

We're allowing custom items in this discussion?

Also, how would the Fighter achieve a high caster level with UMD? I saw nothing in the skill description to indicate that, and don't staffs have a default caster level if yours isn't higher?

And then you could buy a new staff when you run out.

Staves are pretty expensive. Is this Fighter also buying the other types of magic gear like save/stat boosts, flight, ect.?

On the other hand, anyone spending 3k on "better potion" (permancied spell) that might last you a day is probably going to run out of money really quick.

Agreed.

People who carry around lots of potions and oils basically never use them,

I don't think they're cost effective, either.

because they run into the problem where level appropriate enemies have both defenders advantage and better detection systems than PCs.

Divination spells are really important at high levels, and non-casters can replicate them easily.

[DEMON]

Both of which easily compensated for by more efficient use of wealth through class skill UMD, more skill points, and good old fashioned using the freed up cash for any leftover bonuses.

They do? I wouldn't have thought so myself.

The Fort save is nice, Handle Animal could be useful, but why would a Rogue care about Ride?

Never did I say a Rogue would care about any of this (though the Fort save is indeed nice). I was just answering your question without any regards to the bigger picture. Oh right, there's also more hit points I forgot to mention in my previous post...

Really, I don't have a stake in this argument, it's obvious not all classes were created equal (and they should have been), but the discrepancies are less visible in games where the players lack the knowledge and system mastery the long-term enthusiasts (such as many people on these forums), do.

[Beheld]

Divination spells are really important at high levels, and non-casters can replicate them easily.

1) umd lets you emulate class feature, cleric with cl 35 is a class feature of a level 35 cleric.

2) a staff with different spells in it is no more a custom item than a wand with different spells, and much less so than a hand of glory with wisdom and con bonuses.

3) people say that they can use divination spells really well, but I literally gave my pcs a sword that casts commune or speak with dead once a day, and they regularly trick themselves into wrong expectations or just blow the days questions accomplishing nothing.

I've never had anyone actually use divinations that effectively when ive challenged them to in convos like this either. They certainly aren't worthless, but in practice they are substantially overblown.

[ColorBlindNinja]

1) umd lets you emulate class feature, cleric with cl 35 is a class feature of a level 35 cleric.

Wow. I'll have to add that one to my personal list of cheesy tricks.

2) a staff with different spells in it is no more a custom item than a wand with different spells, and much less so than a hand of glory with wisdom and con bonuses.

Won't all those magic items add up quickly? Plus, spamming those spells won't work on everything.

3) people say that they can use divination spells really well, but I literally gave my pcs a sword that casts commune or speak with dead once a day, and they regularly trick themselves into wrong expectations or just blow the days questions accomplishing nothing.

I was thinking of spells like Scrying and Discern Location. Spells like Commune take a bit for finesse to use well.

I've never had anyone actually use divinations that effectively when ive challenged them to in convos like this either. They certainly aren't worthless, but in practice they are substantially overblown.

The potential is certainly there.

But when we're talking about Fighter UMDing staffs to emulate CL 35 Holy Word/Blasphemy/ect. spells, we left typical play some time ago.

[emeraldstreak]

Can the Fighter really afford to burn magic items in every encounter?

Yes. The outcomes of all PvE gauntlets, and of all PvP arenas, point to consumables being too cheap for the power (and consequently treasure) derived from them.

What does the Fighter have (besides higher BAB) that a Rogue with Fighter bonus feats doesn't?

A Rogue with Fighter feats isn't the one in the PHB. The moment you walk into all 1st party supplements (let alone all 1st&3rd party supplements) the Pit Fiend's odds dwindle.

Mind you, no one here is attempting to re-tier the Fighter above the Rogue. The discussion is about Fighter v Pit Fiend, and right now is focused on Core without UMD/custom items (which is only one the nine boxes on the table on page 1 of this thread).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes. The outcomes of all PvE gauntlets, and of all PvP arenas, point to consumables being too cheap for the power (and consequently treasure) derived from them.

I'm not really impressed that the Fighter can win a few battles by throwing money at the problem until it goes away. I was talking about the viability of such tactics in an actual campaign.

Also, what sort of UMD stratagems did you have planned?

A Rogue with Fighter feats isn't the one in the PHB. The moment you walk into all 1st party supplements (let alone all 1st&3rd party supplements) the Pit Fiend's odds dwindle.

I wasn't aware we're talking about Core only. Regardless, dragging 3rd party books into this discussion seems like a bad idea.

Mind you, no one here is attempting to re-tier the Fighter above the Rogue. The discussion is about Fighter v Pit Fiend, and right now is focused on Core without UMD/custom items (which is only one the nine boxes on the table on page 1 of this thread).

So, how's the Fighter faring?

[Beheld]

Yes. The outcomes of all PvE gauntlets, and of all PvP arenas, point to consumables being too cheap for the power (and consequently treasure) derived from them.

Well I mean, for one shots, consumables are supposed to cost 10 times as much. So if we were really using the rules that are presented, presumably the fighter's consumable budget of 83.89k gold would therefore be multiplied by 10 and come out to 838.9k gp worth of consumables.... Or you know, more than WBL all on it's own.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well I mean, for one shots, consumables are supposed to cost 10 times as much. So if we were really using the rules that are presented, presumably the fighter's consumable budget of 83.89k gold would therefore be multiplied by 10 and come out to 838.9k gp worth of consumables.... Or you know, more than WBL all on it's own.

Maybe some dips into Incarnate or Totemist would help replicate some magic gear. That, or taking Shape Soulmeld.

[emeraldstreak]

I'm not really impressed that the Fighter can win a few battles by throwing money at the problem until it goes away.

Take a look at the treasure table in the DMG, and then at the cost of a scroll of Shapechange.

I was talking about the viability of such tactics in an actual campaign.

Actual campaigns depend on the tastes of actual DMs (yes I've seen Fighters kill Pit Fiends in campaigns). PvE arguments however depend on the RAW, and even discounting UMD ,the Core Fighter gets ring of spellstoring and spellcasting services that, say, let him PAO himself.

Also, what sort of UMD stratagems did you have planned?

For me, when someone doesn't understand the power of consumables (and the major gateways to it like UMD), that's a flag that person is a relative newbie to the system. I'm sure there's plenty of information online even with minmax down.

I wasn't aware we're talking about Core only. Regardless, dragging 3rd party books into this discussion seems like a bad idea.

Certainly a bad idea for the Pit Fiend. Even within 1st party only the Fighter gets so many things: better battlefield control, much higher damage, Ikea Tarrasque options - and that's playing nice. Not nice would be his own personal armies of minions, dramatically expanded caster services exploits, all kinds of races/templates, and really heaven know's what else - and that's still without UMD/custom items.

So, how's the Fighter faring?

Are you convinced the non-UMD Core Fighter wins against the Pit Fiend? If not, the case isn't good enough yet.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Take a look at the treasure table in the DMG, and then at the cost of a scroll of Shapechange.

You might have excess cash to burn at +17, but your pockets are a lot more shallow at level 1.

Plus scrolls of Shapechange eat into your budget for other important magic items.

Actual campaigns depend on the tastes of actual DMs (yes I've seen Fighters kill Pit Fiends in campaigns). PvE arguments however depend on the RAW, and even discounting UMD ,the Core Fighter gets ring of spellstoring and spellcasting services that, say, let him PAO himself.

I was talking about WBL. How many times can a Fighter pay casters to give him spells before he runs out of cash?

For me, when someone doesn't understand the power of consumables (and the major gateways to it like UMD), that's a flag that person is a relative newbie to the system. I'm sure there's plenty of information online even with minmax down.

That tells me nothing about how you think the UMD Fighter can win.

Certainly a bad idea for the Pit Fiend. Even within 1st party only the Fighter gets so many things: better battlefield control, much higher damage, Ikea Tarrasque options - and that's playing nice. Not nice would be his own personal armies of minions, dramatically expanded caster services exploits, all kinds of races/templates, and really heaven know's what else - and that's still without UMD/custom items.

So, what's to stop the Pit Fiend from starting an infinite Wish loop? Or any number of other optimized tactics it could be using?

Are you convinced the non-UMD Core Fighter wins against the Pit Fiend? If not, the case isn't good enough yet.

What sort of strategy are we talking about? How much damage can the Core Fighter deal and how is he doing it?

[emeraldstreak]

I was talking about WBL. How many times can a Fighter pay casters to give him spells before he runs out of cash?

Infinite amounts, as he's killing monsters and looting their treasure in-between.

That tells me nothing about how you think the UMD Fighter can win.

What it should be telling you is you lack basic knowledge in critical areas of the system. I'm not in the habit of writing UMD bibles on page 8 of random threats, so Google for yourself, or don't, it's all the same to me.

So, what's to stop the Pit Fiend from starting an infinite Wish loop? Or any number of other optimized tactics it could be using?

Won't be the Pit Fiend from the MM.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Infinite amounts, as he's killing monsters and looting their treasure in-between.

Without more details, I'm very skeptical of that claim.

What it should be telling you is you lack basic knowledge in critical areas of the system. I'm not in the habit of writing UMD bibles on page 8 of random threats, so Google for yourself, or don't, it's all the same to me.

I'm appreciate if you would cease pontificating on my knowledge of 3.5.

If you won't tell me how you're killing the Pit Fiend, why should I believe you?

Won't be the Pit Fiend from the MM.

Yes it is, it's just using its Wish SLA intelligently.

[emeraldstreak]

If you won't tell me how you're killing the Pit Fiend, why should I believe you?

And why should I believe you the Pit Fiend can kill the Fighter?

Yes it is, it's just using its Wish SLA intelligently.

OK, let take this non-MM Pit Fiend for a walk vs a 20th lvl PC.

The Pit Fiend's first move would be start the wish chain. However, any PC that gets more than 1 Wish per year (in any way - includes at least 6/9 boxes in the Fighter table) will Wish for the Pit Fiend's wish to fail. These PCs will either

- almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
- outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

After that, they'll have a Wish renewal before the Pit Fiend and will complete the wish chain first. So for more than 1 Wish/year Pit Fiend got crushed.

For those with less than 1 Wish/year - say non-caster, non-UMD Pazuzu-fans, it's better to wish for the chain immediately. And again:

- almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
- outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

and ultimately complete the chain faster, even by being first in the same turn, and still destroy the Pit Fiend.

[ColorBlindNinja]

And why should I believe you the Pit Fiend can kill the Fighter?

Because I never claimed that.

OK, let take this non-MM Pit Fiend for a walk vs a 20th lvl PC.

The Pit Fiend's first move would be start the wish chain. However, any PC that gets more than 1 Wish per year (in any way - includes at least 6/9 boxes in the Fighter table) will Wish for the Pit Fiend's wish to fail.

That is not a safe use of Wish. Also, why wouldn't the Pit Fiend have started the Wish loop long ago?

These PCs will either

- almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
- outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

If this non-MM Pit Fiend is abusing Wish, why wouldn't it have Contingencies and high initiative bonuses?

After that, they'll have a Wish renewal before the Pit Fiend and will complete the wish chain first. So for more than 1 Wish/year Pit Fiend got crushed.

I repeat, why would the Pit Fiend wait to start the Wish loop until combat begun?

For those with less than 1 Wish/year - say non-caster, non-UMD Pazuzu-fans, it's better to wish for the chain immediately. And again:

- almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
- outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

and ultimately complete the chain faster, even by being first in the same turn, and still destroy the Pit Fiend.

Wish loop abuse by both sides makes this contest rather pointless, as neither side will be able to hurt the other.

You never posted any tactics for the Fighter, UMD or no. Why should I believe that the Fighter beats the Pit Fiend, again?

[Florian]

Without more details, I'm very skeptical of that claim.

I´ll give you an PF answer, but don´t fret, the item creation rules and their pricing didn't change between editions (you´d get the same result using the MiC).
Our basic archery Fighter needs only use 4 basic wands with spells we´d get from either the Paladin, Antipaladin or Ranger list, so nothing fancy - I´m sure you´ll find equivalent spells in 3,5 that will prove to be more powerful, as usual..
- Saddle Surge
- Celestial/Infernal Healing, Greater
- Named Bulled, Greater
- Litany of Righteousness

That 2x 4th and 2x 2nd, an initial investment of 72K for fully charged wands with 40 charges. Using this a pre-combat buffs, this´ll cost us 1,8K in charges to gain a whopping 600 DPR for a first strike.
Compare that to the 60K+ loot for the Pit Fiend.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I´ll give you an PF answer, but don´t fret, the item creation rules and their pricing didn't change between editions (you´d get the same result using the MiC).

Crafting doesn't cost XP in PF, but that's probably not what you meant.

Our basic archery Fighter needs only use 4 basic wands with spells we´d get from either the Paladin, Antipaladin or Ranger list, so nothing fancy - I´m sure you´ll find equivalent spells in 3,5 that will prove to be more powerful, as usual..
- Saddle Surge
- Celestial/Infernal Healing, Greater
- Named Bulled, Greater
- Litany of Righteousness

That 2x 4th and 2x 2nd, an initial investment of 72K for fully charged wands with 40 charges. Using this a pre-combat buffs, this´ll cost us 1,8K in charges to gain a whopping 600 DPR for a first strike.
Compare that to the 60K+ loot for the Pit Fiend.

As far as I can tell, none of those spells are in 3.5.