Results 241 to 270 of 1565
-
2017-06-29, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
-
2017-06-29, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
If we're optimizing Pit Fiends, they would have already begun a Wish loop. Just like an optimized Fighter would have purchased all his gear long ago, or in this case, started a Wish loop.
I'm not going to take your claims about Fighter VS Pitfiend seriously unless you can tell me exactly how the Fighter is supposed to win.
-
2017-06-29, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Shockingly, whomever started first finished first? That's setting history, not a RAW challenge.
A challenge would be the CR 20 monster (as described in its entry by RAW) and the level 20 character (as built by its player by RAW) going for the loop at one and the same time. A challenge, as explained above, the PC wins overwhelmingly.
-
2017-06-29, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
It's assumed that characters have a history when building them. Otherwise, they just sprung out of the ground at level 20 with their WBLs worth of gear.
Why? Why couldn't both characters have already benefited from free Wishes and walk into combat with the buffs and gear obtained from said Wishes?
Until you can show me how the Fighter is built, I don't believe you.Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-06-29 at 05:30 PM.
-
2017-06-29, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Berlin
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
You might have noticed that the fighter we discuss here didn't start the "wish loop" using WBL but instead used that to act like we suppose a Fighter acts, by beating the target by force of arms and skill.
So maybe such simple concepts are a bit above your pay grade?
-
2017-06-29, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
-
2017-06-29, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Exactly, that's why it's called a challenge, a gauntlet, an arena - not a roleplaying campaign in setting with history.
Or if you prefer, they have their logical prehistory and setting - but it just so happens that they begin their rivalry exactly in that moment, under these exact conditions.
Because the PC would be Pun Pun. As in swat Greater Deities by the dozen final optimization Pun Pun. That's the end of the loop, Ninja.
-
2017-06-29, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
-
2017-06-29, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Location
- The tech wilds
- Gender
-
2017-06-29, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
-
2017-06-29, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The answer is either: whoever started first (possible while the other wasn't even born) - outcome is obvious and hardly worth a discussion,
or they begin at the same time, each being what he is by RAW - at which point I already described the ways the PC is ahead.
-
2017-06-29, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Berlin
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Look, stupid, I don´t let you get off the hook so easily. The premise of this whole challenge was quite clear and met easily. The last pages are people chiming in, disagreeing with the outcome and coming up with weirder and weirder constraints or simply moving goal posts to negate the result.
-
2017-06-29, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
-
2017-06-29, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
And hopefully we are done.
Referring again to this post as the one that ends the discussion as far as RAW is concerned.
Finally - and importantly - I have to caution against trying to "optimize" the Pit Fiend away from what is presented in the MM. If you do that long enough, it will stop being a monster, but will become a Player Character of sorts that unfairly uses a race that doesn't have +LA, and if it did it would be +40 or something, against a character of +0 LA or so.
-
2017-06-29, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I don't think asserting you can with a bunch of extremely limited understandings of the rules and declarations that Pit Fiends aren't allowed to use half their SLAs is quite the same as "clearly met" if people are still disagreeing with the outcome, doesn't seem so clear.
-
2017-06-29, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
- Location
- Berlin
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Guy, who cares? The premise was: Fighter vs. Pit Fiend, now fight!
You drone on and on about what could have happened before, what could have been used... all pure blah-blah that was never part of the original question. So, pure moving goal posts.
Yes, high-CR monsters have abilities and they could come into play when they have the time to prep, but that was never the question here.
-
2017-06-29, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The premise was never that an exterior force automatically teleported both parties adjacent to each other in a featureless death plane.
The question was how fighters deal with Pit Fiends (or don't) in actual game enviroments. In fact, Jormugand specifically talked about the Pit Fiend attacking in a surprise round in their original statement about the issue, which means that invisibility, or the Pit Fiends superior detection abilities already came into play in the very first explanation.
-
2017-06-29, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
So, how exactly is this Core only UMD Fighter supposed to take out the Pit Fiend?
Is he allowed to dip into Rogue so he can at least have more ranks in UMD?
What spells should he be using?
-
2017-06-29, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I'm finding myself losing track of the wrong claims that have been made so I decided to make a FAQ.
Spoiler: Fighter 20 is immune to Pit Fiend Blasphemy
Beheld claimed that the Pit Fiend's Blasphemy power can daze the fighter.Originally Posted by Beheld
Spoiler: Sniping does not break hide
Beheld claimed that sniping requires losing hide.Originally Posted by beheldOriginally Posted by hideOriginally Posted by beheldOriginally Posted by hide
Spoiler: Permanency Detect Magic does not require concentration forever
Beheld claimed that:Originally Posted by beheldOriginally Posted by permanencyOriginally Posted by Detect magic
Spoiler: Cover from a boulder applies to a half-plane
Beheld implies that cover from a boulder only applies if a large number of enemies line up.Originally Posted by beheldOriginally Posted by cover
Spoiler: Cover works more than 10 feet away
Beheld apparently claims that cover and concealment only works within 10' of someone you hide from. After I point out that cover and concealment are common in natural settings he says:Originally Posted by beheld
Spoiler: A Fighter can Permanency Detect Magic
Beheld claimsOriginally Posted by beheldOriginally Posted by Ring of Spell Storing
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
-
2017-06-29, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
A 300gp potion beats Blasphemy as well.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
-
2017-06-30, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Oh, I'm sorry, so close, you only lied in five out of six of those. You were so close to lying about every single thing. Well it was a good try. It is weird how you decided to just make a new post where you repeated a bunch of lies I have already corrected while ignoring the corrections. Presumably every time this thread goes to a new page you will repeat the same lies, ignoring the same corrections.
But in reverse order:
1) You are lying about what I said about detect magic permanency, because you claimed he was using a ring that you didn't budget into WBL. He can't use a ring he doesn't have.
2) You are lying about what I said about Cover, because my point was your halfling with a 10ft movement speed has to move 10ft every round after sniping, so needs cover within 10ft, and illusions block off far away cover.
3) You are lying about what I said about Cover, because I specifically quoted the cover rules to correct your false claim that you can have cover against everything just by standing near a boulder, even though you don't, because Pit Fiends fly, and morgs and mummies aren't going to be standing in the same place.
4) You lie about what I said about detect magic, because I very specifically always said that detect magic doesn't ping when you come within 60ft of illusions UNLESS YOU CONCENTRATE, and you then decided it would be convenient to repeatedly lie about what I said, over and over, no matter how many times I correct you.
5) I notice you omit part of the sniping description, because it doesn't help your argument. The same part that I've already pointed out. "then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." If you are still hidden during the shot, why on earth would you need to hide again after the shot?
Your claim that you roll once during the attack, and then again after the shot is nonsense. You are relying entirely on a summary statement about penalties, in the middle of an entire paragraph that summarizes penalties, and then saying "that's not a sentence that summarizes the penalties for sniping, it's a rule on it's own." Even though if it was a rule on it's own, there would be no reason to ever use the sniping rules ever.
But hey, while we are bringing up stuff from the past, why did your fighter spend 1,582,000gp when WBL is only 760,000gp?Last edited by Beheld; 2017-06-30 at 04:47 AM.
-
2017-06-30, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
That's a pretty strong admission you are making there. Thank you. If you want to point out the corrections, I'm happy to add them to the FAQ.
I quoted you and you have pointed out no incorrect quotes so all claims along the lines of "You are lying about what I said" are clearly false. You may have meant to say something other than what you said (we all make mistakes) so please make some corrections where necessary.
A spell storing ring is a common item that the build does not need on a routine basis. If it matters, I'm happy to add 10gp of cost for the 10 rounds of use in the back story.
The halfling has a movement speed of 20' not 10'. I'll add that to the FAQ. I'm also unclear on what you are saying about illusions.
Citation needed. I never claimed that you can have cover against everything.
So, you were wrong two ways. Once by claiming that every standard action for life was needed and once by claiming that concentration is needed. If you want to dispute the RAW, then find a citation that says otherwise.
If you want to come up with an alternate claim for what RAW is, then please reconcile all rules, not just the ones that favor your position.
I have no idea what you are talking about here, but it sounds quite wrong.
I have no idea what you are talking about here, but the conclusion is wrong. I carefully accounted for all spending.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
-
2017-06-30, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
-
2017-06-30, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
That ability... doesn't even do anything? You can already use sniping to shoot as a standard action and then move and hide as a move action. That's already how the rules work. I don't think "some random thing written in a completely different book by a different person who clearly doesn't understand the hiding rules" is a very good argument.
@anthrowhale, can you just stop repeating the same lies over and over and over again? Is that like, a contractual obligation you have to lie about what I said? Like, I already went out of the way to explain why you were lying about each thing, and aside from your lie about how I didn't do that, you just repeated the same lies.
No matter how much you edit out of my quotes and lie about what I said, it is still factually true that you don't get updated whenever you walk within 60ft of an illusion like you claimed, unless you concentrate every round. Your claim that you can just "hide" during an attack action is flatly contradicted by the existence of the sniping rules, since if you could hide during an attack action, you would just do that instead of sniping. Difficult terrain costs two squares to move through, so your claim that you constantly have cover and/.or concealment at all times in all squares would require terrain with half movement speed. Or are you now contending that all terrain is perfectly flat and you would have no trouble moving until you next need to schroedinger's terrain it to give you cover against all enemies again?
For ****s sake, you even lied about why I corrected you by quoting it out of context and pretending my corrections of your lies were admissions of fault, are you paid per lie?
Well, except when you declared you have an 18,000gp item for free.
And also when you bought 800kgp worth of stuff for 80kGP.
I mean, anyone can write incorrect prices next to items and say they accounted for things, it doesn't mean you didn't give yourself 1.5million gp worth of goods. Also I guess I will point out since we are talking about wealth, that you invented an item that doesn't exist and made up your own pricing.Last edited by Beheld; 2017-06-30 at 08:45 AM.
-
2017-06-30, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I believe that is incorrect, going by a quote from SRD:
Originally Posted by SRD
-
2017-06-30, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I think half cost for the ring would be more in line of what is reasonable, as your essentially buying if then selling it back. As for you not accounting for wealth
Slotless: Pale Green Ioun Stone: 30K
Expendables
Arrows: 160 Cold Iron
Arrows: 160 Silver
Arrows: 20 Adamantium: 1.2K
I would use the word adjust instead of match, and adjusting up is a lot easier than adjusting down by raw. By the rules you can basically make the pit fiend an EL21 encounter, select worse feats, and maybe say he didn't have a mountain of corpses to mummify, and make the fight on neutral, or even the pcs turf. On the making things harder you can do the opposite, then give the Fiend equipment.
-
2017-06-30, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2017
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
It should be noted that WBL assumes certain things.
It assumes that a character will have bought and used consumables (that don't have permanent effects) at lower levels.
It assumes that a character will have bought (or looted) lower level items and lower levels and then sold (or given away) those items when they got better ones.
Edit:
Additionally, if we're assuming high levels of "Magic Mart"-itis, finding "Wizard who will cast Permanency for hire" & finding "Wizard with a Ring of Spell Storing who will cast Permanency for hire" are equally trivial tasks.Last edited by Dagroth; 2017-06-30 at 12:49 PM.
-
2017-06-30, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
-
2017-06-30, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
It does seem impossible to reconcile these statements with a view that hide is automatically lost during sniping. But again, it's impossible to reconcile the statements in hide with a view that hide is automatically lost during sniping.
I find many of your statements incomprehensible and unsupported. On the other hand, I have provided many references, shared the logic, and sometimes updated my beliefs as others have commented thoughtfully. Maybe try making a real argument?
I find everything else you are saying here incomprehensible. Items that don't exist? 1.5Mgp? Your unwillingness to provide any explanation or references despite requests implies you have none.
That seems like very high price for a brief rental... But I'll work with it. I decided to ditch the fire resistance on the bracers and pay the full price, adding in a spellcasting services True Seeing in case I ever need it.
It actually is accounted in my spreadsheet, but the price is very low. Anyways, I added it.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
-
2017-07-01, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I tried to understand two more of Beheld's wrong claims and largely failed---there just isn't enough detail provided. Anyways, here they are (and I've added them to the original post.)
Spoiler: Yes, it's really all just 760K gp
Beheld claims that all expendables are 10 times more expensive than what is listed and hence that the build is far over allowed wealth.Originally Posted by beheld
Spoiler: The halfling's move is 20 or more
Beheld claims the the halfling's movement speed is 10.Originally Posted by beheld
Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2017-07-01 at 08:31 AM.
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic