[Dreamscarred Press] New playtest: the Rajah, an akashic initiator!

[WalkingTheShade]

Hello!

I didn't go through the thread in detail (but tried a search of it). Please forgive me if this has already been addressed.

We're having a game on the forums where one player went with an ethumion Rajah, level 2. We're just a couple rounds into the first fight, so I can't say anything about balance yet.

However, something came up.

It's about the interractions between the Spoils of War stance (the one that heals ally 3hp if they hit on an attack, once per round), the ethumion's Wellspring of Life racial ability and the Rajah/ethumion racial favored class bonus.

How many HP should an ally get on a successfull hit? The wording of the different abilities makes it difficult to adjudicate if they should all apply.

Regarding balance

If they all apply, at CL 2, that seems a minor bonus (3 stance + 2 wellspring + 1 favored class = 6hp instead of 3hp). Still, it's the equivalent of free CLW, potentially each round.

However, at higher levels, it seems like it can get out of control, as all 3 scale up with CL. At 10th level, it's a potential 38 per round per ally.

Regarding wording

What's unclear is the source of healing granted by the stance: Is the Rajah the source? Or the ally themselves? Is this healing positive energy? Or something else?

Concerning Wellspring of Life, it seems to me it shouldn't apply, as the ethumion is actively using an effect that heals (i.e. spending an action to heal someone with magic/item/psionics/etc.) but I'm not certain my interpretation to be the only one possible.

The racial favored class bonus seems it should apply (as long as the ally is an entitled).

Thanks for the good work and giving us the possibility to playtest your material!

[Quarian Rex]

If they all apply, at CL 2, that seems a minor bonus (3 stance + 2 wellspring + 1 favored class = 6hp instead of 3hp). Still, it's the equivalent of free CLW, potentially each round.

However, at higher levels, it seems like it can get out of control, as all 3 scale up with CL. At 10th level, it's a potential 38 per round per ally.

I think that your math may be off and causing some worry. Max healing (not including initiator bonus) at 10th level would be 3 (base Spoils of War) + 6 (2 essence invested is the max investment without additional feats, correct me if I'm wrong) + 5 (Wellspring of Life +1 on every odd level, and yes I do think that this works) + 5 (Ethumion favored class option +1/2 selections) = 19

Looks like actual healing is half what you think it is. Just an initiator bonus of +6 (easily achievable by 10th through level bonuses and an enhancement item) gives +12 to the healing. Is the benefit gained from Ethumion significant? Yup. Is it more significant than the bonus you get from your initiation modifier? Nope. It's a boost, but it doesn't seem to be a game breaking one.

[Elricaltovilla]

Unsure if this was answered already, too lazy to look.

The Batal's Mandate class feature lists it as a standard action to use in the first sentence, but in a later paragraph the ability says that its action cost starts at full round and decreases the more maneuvers that the Batal has expended. So is it this:

With a standard action, the batal may create a flame of raw akasha to strike her enemies with.

Or this:

The summoning of this power becomes quicker as you gain momentum from the flow of battle. By default, Batal's mandate is a full round action, but this time decreases by one step for every two batal maneuvers you have initiated since you rolled initiative, or since you last used this ability, whichever was most recent. Steps progress in the following order: full round action, standard action, move action, swift action, and free action.

Bolding added for emphasis. Would love some help with this one.

[Adam1949]

As a continuation of the above question, should the attack granted by Batal's Mandate only be usable once per round? Otherwise, since you may take an unlimited number of free actions in a round, things could get a little nuts and/or completely unintentionally ruined.

[Castilonium]

As a continuation of the above question, should the attack granted by Batal's Mandate only be usable once per round? Otherwise, since you may take an unlimited number of free actions in a round, things could get a little nuts and/or completely unintentionally ruined.

You need to initiate 8 maneuvers to turn Batal's Mandate into a free action, not just have them expended, so if you can do that in one round, I'll be impressed.

[Elricaltovilla]

You need to initiate 8 maneuvers to turn Batal's Mandate into a free action, not just have them expended, so if you can do that in one round, I'll be impressed.

I doesn't need to be done in one round, you just need to expend 8 maneuvers since initiative was rolled or the last time you recovered maneuvers, whichever was more recent.

[Castilonium]

I doesn't need to be done in one round, you just need to expend 8 maneuvers since initiative was rolled or the last time you recovered maneuvers, whichever was more recent.

I know. The way I read Adam1949's post, they think that a Batal somehow will be able to use Batal's Mandate multiple times in the same round because it can eventually be done as a free action. I'm just clarifying what prevents a Batal from doing that.

[Elricaltovilla]

I know. The way I read Adam1949's post, they think that a Batal somehow will be able to use Batal's Mandate multiple times in the same round because it can eventually be done as a free action. I'm just clarifying what prevents a Batal from doing that.

Then I misunderstood what you were saying. My bad.

At most you could do it twice in a round. Once for a free action, then again as a full round action (as you'd just recovered your maneuvers from the free action mandate). That is assuming the second paragraph is how the ability works.

[WalkingTheShade]

I think that your math may be off and causing some worry. Max healing (not including initiator bonus) at 10th level would be 3 (base Spoils of War) + 6 (2 essence invested is the max investment without additional feats, correct me if I'm wrong) + 5 (Wellspring of Life +1 on every odd level, and yes I do think that this works) + 5 (Ethumion favored class option +1/2 selections) = 19

Looks like actual healing is half what you think it is. Just an initiator bonus of +6 (easily achievable by 10th through level bonuses and an enhancement item) gives +12 to the healing. Is the benefit gained from Ethumion significant? Yup. Is it more significant than the bonus you get from your initiation modifier? Nope. It's a boost, but it doesn't seem to be a game breaking one.

Thank you for your reply.

I admit that my knowledge of the Initiator and Akashic rules is somewhat lacking. My confusion stemed from a belief that Initiation modifier was akin to Caster Level and thus equal to Class Level.

Let's leave the math aside.

What's your RAW rationnal for Wellspring of Life applying? It make sense, to me at least, that Wellspring of Life applies to healing resulting from actions actively undertaken by the Ethumion.

My point here is neither that it should or shouldn't apply. My point is that the RAW is ambiguous.

As for RAI, I believe Wellspring of Life stems from the fact ethumions are linked to the Positive Energy plane. Thus that ability should apply if the healing is positive energy, but nothing in the stance's wording argues neither for or against that interpretation. Actually, the fact that undead allies would get healing through it even encourages me to believe it's not powered by positive energy.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I admit that my knowledge of the Initiator and Akashic rules is somewhat lacking. My confusion stemed from a belief that Initiation modifier was akin to Caster Level and thus equal to Class Level.

That's initiator level. Initiation modifier is the actual stat you use, analogous to the casting modifier that determines DCs and more for regular casters.

As for Ethumion's Wellspring of Life, it's pretty clear that it doesn't care whether or not the healing comes from a positive energy effect, as it doesn't specify this at all, but makes sure to do so for the positive energy damage part. The fact that it does say "uses a [list of trigger effects]" does mean it should not apply to Spoils of War however, as one only uses/activates it when you switch to the stance, after that it's just the passive effect of the stance at work.

[Quarian Rex]

What's your RAW rationnal for Wellspring of Life applying? It make sense, to me at least, that Wellspring of Life applies to healing resulting from actions actively undertaken by the Ethumion.

As for Ethumion's Wellspring of Life, it's pretty clear that it doesn't care whether or not the healing comes from a positive energy effect, as it doesn't specify this at all, but makes sure to do so for the positive energy damage part. The fact that it does say "uses a [list of trigger effects]" does mean it should not apply to Spoils of War however, as one only uses/activates it when you switch to the stance, after that it's just the passive effect of the stance at work.

I have to completely disagree with you here. You seem to be trying to negate the use of Wellspring of Life through the use of technicalities that do not exist. That, "list of trigger effects", is actually...

... a spell, power, item, or other magical, psionic, or supernatural effect that heals another creature...

That is pretty damn inclusive and it most definitely applies to Spoils of War.

If a maneuver is overtly magical or otherwise uses a supernatural power source, it will be noted as a supernatural ability in its description. In this case, the maneuver obeys all the standard rules for supernatural abilities.

Maneuvers from the Radiant Dawn discipline are imbued and enhanced with akashic energies; as such, they are supernatural abilities.

So, I think that it is pretty clear that Wellspring of Life would apply to supernatural maneuvers, stances, etc.

As for the idea that Wellspring of Life wouldn't apply since Spoils of War is only 'used' when it is activated, you seem to just be completely wrong. Whether or not you are 'using' an ability can have very little to do with the action used to activate it, all depending on the ability. Things like Energy Body of the Life mystery specifically does nothing when activated but is used to heal through subsequent actions of the user and others. I don't think anyone would argue that Wellspring of Life doesn't work with Energy Body. Spoils of War is essentially the same thing. If you are still of the erroneous opinion that a stance is not actually being 'used' after it is activated then I present you the very text of Spoils of War...

While you maintain this stance, allies within close range...

Maintaining is still using, regardless of whether it requires further actions.

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm beating a dead horse here but I think it was necessary to spell out the elements of this in some detail in an effort to prevent any further hair splitting. If you want to make an argument that the combination shouldn't work, and that the text of Spoils of War should be modified to block such interactions, then you are free to do so (I would be opposed to such a suggestion, the ability seems fine as is). With the abilities as written I can't see any valid interpretation that would say this interaction doesn't work.

TL;DR - Wellspring of Life seems to work just fine with Spoils of War.

[AGrinningCat]

Wellspring of Life

Rajah is the source of her stances, even if allies trigger it. Wellspring of life should affect the stance, although I'm getting confirmation, as I didn't write the WoL ability (So don't quote me on this).
That being said, Rajah healing is not positive energy, meaning you can heal undead allies with the maneuvers.

Batal Mandate

Fixed the wording on it, it should be consistent now.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I have to completely disagree with you here. You seem to be trying to negate the use of Wellspring of Life through the use of technicalities that do not exist. That, "list of trigger effects", is actually...

... a spell, power, item, or other magical, psionic, or supernatural effect that heals another creature...

And you seem to lack a firm grasp on the English language and sentence structure. The "uses" that you so carefully omitted is critical to understanding the full context:

...uses a spell, power, item, or other magical, psionic, or supernatural effect that heals another creature...

Basic English comprehension would let you understand that the "uses" applies to the whole list, not part of it. It's writing to allow it to work with any used ability (such as SLAs or say Lay on Hands, which btw are again abilities you use), but they still must be an effect that is used.

Maintaining is still using, regardless of whether it requires further actions.

Uh, no, that's flat out wrong. Now you're just making up rules where none exist.

I don't think anyone would argue that Wellspring of Life doesn't work with Energy Body.

I would actually, if you're referring to the part where you heal people by moving through them (or them moving through you). It would apply when "You may use this ability to heal yourself as a move action" however, it very clearly has "use" for healing in that manner with Energy Body.

I do admit that the wording of WoL itself is not the best, and the list of things it works with is so long that it reads really poorly (the use of the "ors" really messes it up I think), but I really do not think it is nearly as cut and dry as you say. I for one will wait to see what response AGrinningCat gets, as I would happy to have word of dev prove me wrong.

[WalkingTheShade]

Rajah is the source of her stances, even if allies trigger it. Wellspring of life should affect the stance, although I'm getting confirmation, as I didn't write the WoL ability (So don't quote me on this).

Alright. Adding a sentence to Spoils of War in order to disambiguate that would help people like me (e.g. "The amount healed can be further modified by abilities such as..."). Of course, I'd understand if such disambiguation is deemed superfluous.

That being said, Rajah healing is not positive energy, meaning you can heal undead allies with the maneuvers.

Which makes my headache worse: Should an ethumion Rajah heal undead better? Or less?

It may seem that I'm nitpicking: After all, RAW can't modelize every corner case. It's then up to RAI interpretation and fluff coherence to make up for what can't be modelized. Here, I admit to being somewhat unconvinced by the Spoils of War stance fluff.

[Quarian Rex]

And you seem to lack a firm grasp on the English language and sentence structure. The "uses" that you so carefully omitted is critical to understanding the full context:

Basic English comprehension would let you understand that the "uses" applies to the whole list, not part of it. It's writing to allow it to work with any used ability (such as SLAs or say Lay on Hands, which btw are again abilities you use), but they still must be an effect that is used.

Well, it seems that when your extremely narrow perception of the world gets challenged you get defensive and attempt to go on the attack. That is a delightful character trait. I'm sure that it serves you well in life.

Your objection seemed to be based on a lack of comprehension of how abilities function and so I felt it was needed to spell out how Wellspring of Life and Spoils of War interacted to make sure we were both on the same page. Your continued inability to understand that use =/= activate was addressed later in the post.

Uh, no, that's flat out wrong. Now you're just making up rules where none exist.

See? You're almost there. You just have to realize that this actually applies to what you said.

Use =/= activate. I can see where you might get confused on this, there are many abilities where they can be used interchangeably. Like drinking a potion or using an axe to chop down a tree. But you must recognize that there are also actions where this is not the case. Like using a chainsaw to fell a tree instead of an axe. You must first activate the chainsaw and then it can be used to saw the tree. Similarly, a Barbarian activates his rage with a free action and then uses (maintains) it from round to round. How do we know that rage is still being used? Because as soon as he stops using it he is fatigued and cannot activate it again until the fatigue is past. It is the same for Spoils of War (and stances in general). It is activated with a swift action and remains in effect (being used) until it is changed. Spoils of War is special only in that it has triggers for additional effects when in use.

I would actually, if you're referring to the part where you heal people by moving through them (or them moving through you). It would apply when "You may use this ability to heal yourself as a move action" however, it very clearly has "use" for healing in that manner with Energy Body.

You seem to be unaware that "use" is not a game term. It is just an English word that is so common that the need for further in-game definition is seen as completely unnecessary. Until you. You, apparently, are unable to recognize that an ability is being used unless the specific word "use" appears in the same sentence. The only part that you did admit would work was the one part of its healing ability that doesn't apply to Wellspring of Life, because WoL doesn't apply to healing on oneself, only others.

Basic English comprehension, indeed.

I for one will wait to see what response AGrinningCat gets, as I would happy to have word of dev prove me wrong.

A look at the post above yours (and two hours earlier) should solve that for you. Now, whether the authors of the Ethumion want to errata that is up to them (though, again, I don't think that is necessary). And I do think that, as written, the interpretation is pretty cut and dry.

[Quarian Rex]

Which makes my headache worse: Should an ethumion Rajah heal undead better? Or less?

Perhaps just see it as them being better able to heal. Period. While they are infused with positive energy, and gain benefits from this, they also transcend their heritage as well. They are now embodiments of restorative force, regardless of where it is applied. Even constructs or (gasp!) undead can feel the restorative touch of life (if it isn't through a raw burst from the positive energy plane) that has so long be denied them, so long as it is filtered through an Ethumion.

This is one of those mechanical quirks that can turn into quite an interesting RP opportunity if you want.

[Mithril Leaf]

So I'm curious what version of The Warlord is the intended one. Because in the Playtest it's a stronger untyped increase against a single enemy at the cost of a swift action, while in the PDF it's a morale bonus against all enemies to allies within range. I believe the one in the PDF is the old version.

Spoiler: PDF Version

Show

THE WARLORD
Descriptors: Title
Class: Rajah
Slot: Shoulders
Saving Throw: none
A heavy weight settles into the Warlord’s shoulders, as a
symbol of hope forms overhead.
An akashic seal forms over the head of the entitled, pro-
jecting an aura within close range (25 feet + 5 feet per two
veilweaver levels). Allies within this aura gain a +1 morale
bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving
throws against fear and mind affecting effects.
Essence: For each point of essence invested in this veil,
the bonus on saving throws against fear and mind affect-
ing effects increases by +1. For every two points of essence
invested, the bonus granted on attack and weapon damage
rolls increases by +1.
Chakra Bind (Shoulders): As a free action once per
round, the entitled may designate a 5-foot square with an
akashic symbol. Allies within or adjacent to this square gain
a morale bonus to AC equal to the attack bonus granted
by this veil. Allies of the entitled who start their turn in this
area also gain temporary hit points equal to your veilweav-
ing modifier plus the essence invested in this veil. These
temporary hit points last for 1 minute or until used. The en-
titled may only have one akashic symbol laid out at a time.

[AGrinningCat]

Update on Spoils of War/Wellspring of Life: WoL does increase Spoils of War's healing. Sorry it took so long to get an answer, I had thought I answered it until I was informed that no, I hadn't.

PDF

That is indeed the old Warlord. A new PDF will be out soon (With any luck), and will have all the updated information!

[WalkingTheShade]

Update on Spoils of War/Wellspring of Life: WoL does increase Spoils of War's healing. Sorry it took so long to get an answer, I had thought I answered it until I was informed that no, I hadn't.

Thank you for answering my question.

[MilleniaAntares]

I hope this isn't too late, but I think perhaps the Stormbringer should let the damage upon jumping/falling be optional. It'd be a shame to screw up someone's roof when you jump on it! :P

[AGrinningCat]

I hope this isn't too late, but I think perhaps the Stormbringer should let the damage upon jumping/falling be optional. It'd be a shame to screw up someone's roof when you jump on it! :P

Done and dusted

[MilleniaAntares]

Really late for this, but for Sun's Zenith...

"Each of your unexpended maneuvers and stances is treated as though it had essence invested in it equal to the number of maneuvers you've expended from this stance's source, to a maximum of ½ your initiator level (This essence can exceed the maneuver’s essence cap). Only maneuvers from the class (not feats) that granted this stance are counted towards this."

I think it may be simpler to state "to a maximum of the source's number of readied maneuvers (up to 10) from this stance's source, unmodified by feats". Generally speaking, it doesn't matter how many times I take Advanced Training, readied maneuvers are the main chokepoint to how many (un)expended maneuvers I have... and they are generally less than ½ initiator level, with the exception of stalker and mystic.

Edit: Does Disrupt Essence deal damage? It doesn't say it does. Decree of Death explicitly says it doesn't deal damage, but Disrupt Essence doesn't say either way.

[Kyle_Lokharte]

I've been SCOURING the internet for hours trying to determine whether this class and its associated discipline have undergone a full release, or whether they have fallen off the face of the earth (which would be REALLY sad).

I can't post links (only just now registered despite lurking for years)


According to their patreon it has been released on DrivethruRPG one year ago (to patreons only...?):

"Rajah tonight, Psionics Next Month!
Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14pm
We'll be sending out the Rajah tonight via DriveThruRPG. This release is a big one! The Rajah is a new maneuver-based class in our Divergent Paths series for Path of War that uses veilweaving from Akashic Mysteries, and not only are you getting the new class, but a host of new veils and feats! "

I can't find the product on Drivethru, I can't find it on Dreamscarred's website, and I've only been able to find the scant tracings of a PDF (which appears to be a full release PDF) and Google Docs tracker (which has the incorrect year for January's notes).

Does ANYONE know what's going on or what happened with this project? It's been a fair amount of time (and as a content creator I know the length that can pass between updates and releases), and I'm just a tad worried this thing won't come to fruition.

ANY info is greatly appreciated!

[Zarthrax]

Looking at this class, while it's great for support, I'm slightly disappointed in how few actual veils it gets. Yes, you get a feat that can let you use a title on yourself, but you have to take Shape Veil for any other veil you want to use.

Also? You'd figure that with a class like this, there'd be at least one title that can cause fear or take advantage of it.

[AGrinningCat]

ANY info is greatly appreciated!

As of today, it's finally been published and is available to everyone! You can find it at your normal places!

As with all DSP projects, I'll be closing down the public documents and this thread in about a week now that it is officially published! Until then, I'm back to monitoring this thread, so do let me know if you have any questions!

[Val666]

I think the answer is probably no, still I need to ask for clarification. Sorry if this has already been answered.

If I take the Weapon Group Adaption feat, let’s say Heavy Blades, resolving an attack through Vassalage using an Amulet of War (X heavy blade) will count as using a weapon from such category?