[Dreamscarred Press] New playtest: the Rajah, an akashic initiator!

[AGrinningCat]

On the subject of the Dragon, it's less about any individual piece that you get (That might be out done by another veil), but the entire thing. The Dragon does 3 things:

1) Allows you to make a standard for two attacks. While certain maneuvers may allow you to do the same, that maneuver is expended, meaning you only get one shot, hit or miss. This also assumes you're an initiator. Psionic and Akasha classes don't typically have access to maneuvers for their TWF. This is a pretty large damage boost when you're making attacks on the run.
2) Pseudo-Rend that stacks with Rend. If you hit with both attacks, you get a chance for bonus damage against your target, plus any target that you might catch in it's rather generous AoE.
3) This requires Essence, but it reduces the penalty of TWF by a point per essence. More accuracy = more hits = more damage = more pseudo-Rends = even more damage

When you bind it, you also gain the benefit of reducing enemy's DR after you've hit twice. While your first two hits may be absorbed, every other hit for probably the entire rest of the fight will gain its benefit, unless you let it fall off. I can see where there'd be complaints about the bind if you're not fighting enemies with DR -- Something I'll be looking into.

Stormbringer is a bit stranger. This a veil that's closer to Skirmisher than anything else. It's to help you move, hence getting such a large bonus to acrobatics through the veil. I've got some small buffs incoming for it, but it largely should remain the same.

Mighty is in need of some love. I'm considering moving it to a charge based system, which fires off on successful attacks (And shields you from AoOs), so you can knock people around with your mighty hits.

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Batal Chatter:

Sword of the Sky Sovereign: Deleted the extra wording. I'm considering changing this up completely, allowing the initiator to shuffle their maneuvers around on recovery instead of boosting essence, but I'm still figuring out what I want to do for this utility slot

Sword of the Sun King: This will be changed to 'on hit' rather than 'when initiated' to keep it in line with the Crown variant.

Sword of the Moon Queen: This is a more movement oriented option than a defensive one, but I'm still considering shuffling this to providing a temporary hit point shield or AC/Saves on counter initiation to push it to be a defensive option if more people would want that.

Batal Recovery: Sadly, the previous recovery was just too good for the Batal. When mulling over on how to fix it, I decided that players would prefer to keep the Standard action attack portion of the recovery, but decided to disallow actually swinging with your weapon. I can fiddle with the damage/effects here a bit more to get it in a good spot, but if 'making a pseudo-suns-gleam' as a recovery doesn't feel good, I'll see what else I can pull.

--

Sun's gleam: I'll get this changed to be 'any attack initiated as apart of a maneuver'.

[AGrinningCat]

While I'm mulling over the Batal Mandate; can I get people's feedback on it that isn't related to the numbers? I can adjust those easily, but I'd like to hear how people feel about the mechanics.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. To me at least, it seems a little too... well, little. It will be around 2-5 damage, never scales beyond boosting your modifier, and grants an extremely minor bonus; it reminds me of the Warlords's Deadeye gambit, but worse, since you don't have to choose the Deadeye gambit, and you still get a decent amount of options with it, and it gives all allies temp HP. Plus, with sun's gleam, it seems redundant. I like the mechanical effects it does, though.

[thecrimsondawn]

While I'm mulling over the Batal Mandate; can I get people's feedback on it that isn't related to the numbers? I can adjust those easily, but I'd like to hear how people feel about the mechanics.

As I am currently playing a Batal, I will give you my thoughts and experiences with it so far.
As it currently is, the damage at lv4 is almost useless compared to every other party member, and the temp hp may as well not be there with how much monsters do and how often they hit. Numbers aside tho, so I can give honest feedback, I am once again brought to what I posted earlier. I no longer feel like a front line tank. I dont know where I am supposed to be with this class anymore. I no longer have the AC from the sword of the moon, I no longer have the ability to support my party with free attacks, and my recovery method is a ranged attack, sending me mixed signals with how I should play. I can understand changing the recovery method as giving players free saves, attacks, and bonuses really is quite strong. Its too much utility. Fine for a pure caster ish type like the Rajah, but depending on where you want this Batal to be in a fight depends on how the recovery should work.

From where I am, I can see two paths for the Batal to take. The first is a mixed ranged combatant, with the class feature selection aiding one style more then others. In this case, the recovery method would benefit both melee and ranged, but it does need a powerful buff to make it worth while. If the plan is to have a ranged option available, the recovery attack needs to be worth while to use, but not so good that you would spam it over a strike, so this could be an issue in its current state.
The second option would be to focus on them staying in the front lines. For this, I feel a more defensive option would be useful over the current form of the recovery method. You could opt to do something crazy like alter the recovery method based on what sword you picked, with the strike based sword one being something like...
full round action to recover, allies within 30 feet can make an AoO once on anyone that attempts to attack them in melee. The boost one could be something that buffs your allies, perhaps their next attack roll, or maybe their ac OR saves sort of like the Knights Disciple recovery method, but weaker. The counter one could be one that lets you move in response to an ally being attack to take it for yourself, and make an opposed attack roll to counter it, or perhaps to just hit him. I dono, just tossing out ideas here, but if the goal is front line tank, the recovery method does not fit too well as is.

Lets look at the recovery method as if it was stronger. Ill go way out of the ballpark here and say it gets scaling damage like a Kinetic Blast. By level 10, you are looking at 5d6 (an average of 15 damage, with a max of 30).
Now lets look at a simple Clay Golem (cr 10) 101 average hp would take 7 rounds of recovery to kill one, so its still not that big on the damage scale. Now lets look at its attacks. 2 slams +19 (2d10+7 plus cursed wound). The damage is 2d10 (average 17 damage, max of 27) ignoring the debuff, and it gets 2 if I am reading this monster right. That means, even with a massive damage boost to the current recovery method, you are still looking at it being worth less then a single hit from a CR10 monster, and there is almost always going to be more then 1 monster slugging around, not to even bring up crits here.

Its your class, but I suggest mulling over what to change the recovery method to, because as you said, the original method is too strong, but this one is too weak, and a bit out of place. These are my current thoughts on the new recovery.

[Mezzaluna]

While I'm mulling over the Batal Mandate; can I get people's feedback on it that isn't related to the numbers? I can adjust those easily, but I'd like to hear how people feel about the mechanics.

I think it's 'okay' as it is, and wouldn't be awful if it stayed in its current form with tweaked numbers, but I'm also comparing it to Rajah's mandate, Gambits, Defensive Focus, and CRazor Harbinger's Claim (with the Malevolence feat that autocurses claimed enemies) in terms of 'would you ever want to actively use it in place of maneuvers or full attacks if you had the choice?'

Recovery methods like these provide decisions:
"Do I use my recovery method now even if I don't need to recover, for the side benefit that it gives, or do I press the offense directly?"

And for Batal Mandate, while not a waste of an action, it feels like it will never be better than using a strike, not even in niche case situations unless the Batal has completely neglected any healing maneuvers (which is unlikely because of Rajah's Radiant Dawn focus). There isn't any question of "should I use this instead", just "I'm out of maneuvers now, I guess I have to use it".
What I'd ideally like to see in it would be a rider that, even if only in narrow situations, could provide reasonably uncommon control/positioning/utility opportunities that would warrant it as a valid mid-combat option with creativity or the right opportunity.

Not necessarily something stronger or comparable to actual strikes, but useful/unique enough that sometimes it turns out to be just the right tool for the one job.

Separately in terms of thematics, making it an attack with a rider feels like it works because thematically the Batal feels like an 'esoteric foreign martial' sort of thing.

[Draacul]

Mighty is in need of some love. I'm considering moving it to a charge based system, which fires off on successful attacks (And shields you from AoOs), so you can knock people around with your mighty hits.

That's what Brawler is.Bull Rush is such a good maneuver that it gets a special treatment?

[AGrinningCat]

Batal Feedback

Thank you for this. Can I see your character sheet?

[Rasma]

As it currently is, the damage at lv4 is almost useless compared to every other party member, and the temp hp may as well not be there with how much monsters do and how often they hit.

I have been having the opposite experiences myself, my Batal was doing fine in damage with an elven curved blade and having good str. And my temp hp has kept me at nearly 100% hp almost constantly, my self healing plus temp hp made attacks basically useless against me when they did hit, even with the hit to moon queen I had the highest ac in the party.
The only way to stop my Batal was to have it be killed in one round.

[thecrimsondawn]

Thank you for this. Can I see your character sheet?

Sure! Since I converted over to a normal Rajah after last game, this one is of no use to me anymore.
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1357477

[thecrimsondawn]

I have been having the opposite experiences myself, my Batal was doing fine in damage with an elven curved blade and having good str. And my temp hp has kept me at nearly 100% hp almost constantly, my self healing plus temp hp made attacks basically useless against me when they did hit, even with the hit to moon queen I had the highest ac in the party.
The only way to stop my Batal was to have it be killed in one round.

It sounds like we are fighting different monsters tho. I used my headband veil to reshape the gravekeeper I think it was called for healing as I needed it. The last encounter we had, every monster was hitting for around 15 to 30 damage, with 3 natural attacks a round.
We are all infected with lycanthropy now too <_<.
The other party members have an ac of 22 and I think 25 without using any combat actions to boost it further. A stalker and a Dervish Warlord. We have casters that I am not counting in this for obvious reasons :p .

The good news is that I one shot the boss thanks to spending a heaping ton of animus all at once thanks to The Primordial :D

[Rasma]

15 to 30 damage, with 3 natural attacks a round.

15-30 per attack or per round?
My level 4 Batal was healing 5 hp a round and gaining temp hp 10 every round.
Which basically negates a large chunk of damage every round.

[AGrinningCat]

Sure! Since I converted over to a normal Rajah after last game, this one is of no use to me anymore.
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1357477

Wanted to note that Demiurge is free for Batal -- The archetype doesn't alter any veils known, so there's no need to take Shape Veil (Demiurge).

It's always interesting to see what heraldries people take first. Thank you for posting this!

[thecrimsondawn]

15-30 per attack or per round?
My level 4 Batal was healing 5 hp a round and gaining temp hp 10 every round.
Which basically negates a large chunk of damage every round.

Radiant Dawn's powerful healing with the stance and the strike was the only thing keeping the party alive. Cleric helped a bit but was an NPC so you know how that goes...
Most of us have around 30 to 40ish hp or so (save the barbarian) so healing 6 hp with a recovery is not going to help when 3 hits will drop a player. If you compare it to a different encounter with a large number of low damage monsters, it MAY be able to keep up, but if you want to make use of the current recovery, it more or less turns you into a dedicated heal spammer.

I switched over to normal Rajah and did game last night, and my effectiveness was drastically improved, but I nearly died after the third hit (did not want to attack to break sanc, and could not drink a potion due to AoO's). Still, I bound The Duelist onto our duel wielding dps with The Dragon and just watched the chaos unfold as I gave attacks to my veiled allies while I sat back being someone most monsters that encounter could not hit.

Here is some updated feedback from last game, since I now have a comparison. Batal is more tanky, and better suited to spam heals, and less suited for the sanctuary effect. However it feels almost forced into a sub healer role due to limited veils, and a healing type of recovery. Meanwhile Rajah feels more like the Medic from Team Fortress - just saying within veil range and letting your allies wreck house, giving free actions, and only attacking when absolutely needed. This is where an issue comes in tho I feel.

Without sanctuary, my Rajah will have an ac of 15. When many monsters have a bonus of 8 or higher, that is death if you get too close to combat. Because of this, I am forced to rely on sanctuary, and avoid using half my class features (martial arts, and using said martial arts through my allies) so I dont become a primary target and get dropped. Im considering looking for some methods to become invisible to help with my issue, or perhaps one of the many methods to fly around lv10, but at least early level (level 4 atm) I feel unless its an emergency, using martial arts through my allies is a bad idea. At least not without tactics and formations (something my current Rajah is not an expert in, so I am not guiding my party as such)
Its looking like this game is getting scrapped within a few sessions tho in favor of a gestalt game everyone wants to play, so I may have around 3 to 5 more games before that happens. Ill keep posting any feedback I feel is relevant

[thecrimsondawn]

Wanted to note that Demiurge is free for Batal -- The archetype doesn't alter any veils known, so there's no need to take Shape Veil (Demiurge).

It's always interesting to see what heraldries people take first. Thank you for posting this!

Ya, I forgot to change that after the remake. Our DM is allowing the shape veil feats to count as another veil shaped tho and not just another veil option due to the party size (and due to the Batal loosing a veil). Even with that house rule, its not easy to pick your feats out :p

[Galacktic]

Essence of the Immortal helps out the Rajah a ton, it's almost a level 1 feat for mine. As is, I'm waiting until 3rd!

[exelsisxax]

So what does Narcissism actually do? I searched the thread and apparently the wording has changed in a fix attempt, but even time I read it it still seems like it says you can't shape the title on yourself. "using normal weilweaving rules" would mean you can't shape a title descriptor veil to yourself - but isn't that the whole point of the feat?

[Tkags]

So what does Narcissism actually do? I searched the thread and apparently the wording has changed in a fix attempt, but even time I read it it still seems like it says you can't shape the title on yourself. "using normal weilweaving rules" would mean you can't shape a title descriptor veil to yourself - but isn't that the whole point of the feat?

"Finally, the veil you selected loses its Title descriptor."

[exelsisxax]

"Finally, the veil you selected loses its Title descriptor."

Thanks.

Truly, I am an exceptional person. I have such an easy time getting around for someone who is apparently completely blind.

[Kaouse]

Hmm...I have no idea how long playtests normally take. Can somebody tell me if this playtest close to completion?

I would also like to say that I really appreciate a supportive/healing discipline for my Aegis to use with Initiator's Soul. It almost feels like you can fill any roll with the Aegis. The bonus essence also helps with the use of the Akashic veilweaving customizations that the Aegis gets. I'm really excited to try out the character, but my GM doesn't like using playtest material, unfortunately.

[AGrinningCat]

Hmm...I have no idea how long playtests normally take. Can somebody tell me if this playtest close to completion?

I would also like to say that I really appreciate a supportive/healing discipline for my Aegis to use with Initiator's Soul. It almost feels like you can fill any roll with the Aegis. The bonus essence also helps with the use of the Akashic veilweaving customizations that the Aegis gets. I'm really excited to try out the character, but my GM doesn't like using playtest material, unfortunately.

The playtest should be nearing it's end. I'm polishing up a few of the more lackluster titles and fiddling with Batal crossroads, but besides that most of this shouldn't change.

As far as Radiant Dawn, it's basically finished. If you want to use it, and your GM requires a bit more convincing, you could always direct them to me and I can try to ease their worries!

[Eox]

Aw, no int-based archetype in the initial release? Ah well, Batal hits all the notes an archetype ought to.

[AGrinningCat]

Hello everyone! With the holidays over and the near year started, I've got some updates for you! Most of these updates are targeted towards the Batal, although titles got a bit of polishing while I was fixing stuff. As of right now, the Batal's crossroads & recovery mechanic is sitting pretty (at least where I'm standing, feel free to tell me otherwise), so this should be the last major change to the Batal. Thank you everyone who has and is currently playtesting the archetype, and I apologize for changing it so often.

With that said, I'll reiterate what I stated before in that I'm looking to close the playtest soon-ish. As such, if you feel anything needs to be addressed, please let me know, otherwise if there are no complaints, we'll get this out of my hair into print, and I'll be free to move onto new projects!

As always, the document has been updated to reflect the changes, and you can find the change log here.

Edit: Batal has the proper recovery now, missed that when updating the documents.

[Galacktic]

Hello everyone! With the holidays over and the near year started, I've got some updates for you! Most of these updates are targeted towards the Batal, although titles got a bit of polishing while I was fixing stuff. As of right now, the Batal's crossroads & recovery mechanic is sitting pretty (at least where I'm standing, feel free to tell me otherwise), so this should be the last major change to the Batal. Thank you everyone who has and is currently playtesting the archetype, and I apologize for changing it so often.

With that said, I'll reiterate what I stated before in that I'm looking to close the playtest soon-ish. As such, if you feel anything needs to be addressed, please let me know, otherwise if there are no complaints, we'll get this out of my hair into print, and I'll be free to move onto new projects!

As always, the document has been updated to reflect the changes, and you can find the change log here.

Edit: Batal has the proper recovery now, missed that when updating the documents.

Gravekeeper seems to be missing the end of a sentence at the first paragraph!

[AGrinningCat]

Gravekeeper seems to be missing the end of a sentence at the first paragraph!

Fixed! Thank you!

[calyst]

The essence portion of Gravekeeper also seems to be worded incorrectly, as worded it does not scale up with more essence.

[AGrinningCat]

The essence portion of Gravekeeper also seems to be worded incorrectly, as worded it does not scale up with more essence.

Fixed as well. It's not a good day for me, apparently.

[Eox]

Just a few assorted notes/typos for Radiant Dawn:

Spoiler

Show

-High Noon, Sunrise and Sunset say "You may invest essence into maneuvers that you cannot normally invest maneuvers into." which I believe should be "that you cannot normally invest essence into"

-Mentions of range in Path of the Sun are grammatically pretty weird, although I'm not sure of a better way to put it

-Does the line attack in Battle Against the Sun have to point away from you like most regular line attacks?

-The Essence section of Stance of the Sunlight Shield increases the number of shields you create when entering the stance, but the maneuver entry itself doesn't really mention anything about that. It's just a first-round benefit, yeah?

-Noblesse Oblige would be a bit more useful if it was marked as a counter, for the purpose of feats/abilities that require you to expend a readied counter. It's hella useful as-is so this might not be totally necessary.

-Divide and Conquer allows less scrupulous parties to hit their allies and hit them with touch spells and such at a distance. Not sure if this is a bug or a feature.

-Push the Advantage states "With the enemy defeated, you spurn an ally towards further glory." spurn should probably be spur.

[AGrinningCat]

Just a few assorted notes/typos for Radiant Dawn:

Spoiler

Show

-High Noon, Sunrise and Sunset say "You may invest essence into maneuvers that you cannot normally invest maneuvers into." which I believe should be "that you cannot normally invest essence into"

-Mentions of range in Path of the Sun are grammatically pretty weird, although I'm not sure of a better way to put it

-Does the line attack in Battle Against the Sun have to point away from you like most regular line attacks?

-The Essence section of Stance of the Sunlight Shield increases the number of shields you create when entering the stance, but the maneuver entry itself doesn't really mention anything about that. It's just a first-round benefit, yeah?

-Noblesse Oblige would be a bit more useful if it was marked as a counter, for the purpose of feats/abilities that require you to expend a readied counter. It's hella useful as-is so this might not be totally necessary.

-Divide and Conquer allows less scrupulous parties to hit their allies and hit them with touch spells and such at a distance. Not sure if this is a bug or a feature.

-Push the Advantage states "With the enemy defeated, you spurn an ally towards further glory." spurn should probably be spur.

Sunrise/High Noon/Sunset feats fixed
Path of the Sun seems to be correct -- Where exactly are you seeing the problem?
Stance of the Sunlight Shield mentions that entering the stance creates a shield; third sentence
Let me asks on internal about Noblesse Oblige
As for Divide & Conquer, that's more emergent gameplay? I don't think it's too much of an issue with the action costs associated.
Push the advantage is fixed!

Thank you for looking out for me!

[thecrimsondawn]

Sword of the Moon Queen
It currently lasts for 1 round when you use a counter, but since counters are taken place off your turn, I feel it should instead be 'until the beginning of your next turn' just to prevent cheesy situations where a round ends, but still plenty of people go before you, or keeping your bonus on your active turn because the round is not up.


I gotta say, I LOVE the adjustment to the recovery method now. It flows together well with the sword options, making for an interesting archetype, focused around spamming as many moves as you can - no other martial class is like that and I like it!

The Gravekeeper
Interesting change. I have mixed feelings about the loss of control of how much blood is taken out to heal, but I feel it would be too powerful otherwise, so I like it. Its no longer a cop out survival method (that I may or may not have totally abused last game :p )

The Mighty
Daevic's rejoice! Honestly, I like this one, but I suggest making the bull rush bonus type an insight bonus to flow with the bonuses from all the other veils in Akashic Mysteries - mostly to prevent insane skill stacking. On the other hand tho, Bull Rush is one of the most lackluster moves to use in combat, so I guess it can be left alone too :p

[AGrinningCat]

Sword of the Moon Queen
It currently lasts for 1 round when you use a counter, but since counters are taken place off your turn, I feel it should instead be 'until the beginning of your next turn' just to prevent cheesy situations where a round ends, but still plenty of people go before you, or keeping your bonus on your active turn because the round is not up.


I gotta say, I LOVE the adjustment to the recovery method now. It flows together well with the sword options, making for an interesting archetype, focused around spamming as many moves as you can - no other martial class is like that and I like it!

The Gravekeeper
Interesting change. I have mixed feelings about the loss of control of how much blood is taken out to heal, but I feel it would be too powerful otherwise, so I like it. Its no longer a cop out survival method (that I may or may not have totally abused last game :p )

The Mighty
Daevic's rejoice! Honestly, I like this one, but I suggest making the bull rush bonus type an insight bonus to flow with the bonuses from all the other veils in Akashic Mysteries - mostly to prevent insane skill stacking. On the other hand tho, Bull Rush is one of the most lackluster moves to use in combat, so I guess it can be left alone too :p

On the topic of typed bonuses, normally the would be typed, but as they are titles, they're untyped as to not interfere with the class features of people you put them on.

I'll get the moon queen limited to the start of your next turn.