If you DMed like OotS?

[danielxcutter]

I've been thinking of this for a while, and I'm of the opinion of that while OotS works perfectly as a story... it's a good thing it's not an actual game going on.

Why? Because there are *way* too many things that would be completely unfair for the PCs(which in this case is the OotS).

• Durkon's accent prevents him from preparing the right spells on occasions - this would be essentially DM fiat to screw with Durkon's player whenever he had a spell that could help a lot.
  
• The "back door" for the Mass Death Ward. Actually, making either Belkar(terrible Will save) or Durkon(similar Cleric levels as Malack, but Malack is a vampire and is 2 CR higher than Durkon) fight against Malack solo, in general.
  
• Vamping Durkon *and* turning him into an NPC even after Malack's gone.
  
• Miko destroying the gate in Azure City.
  
• Miko's essentially a DMPC, so all of her annoying moments are kinda this.
  

The list probably goes on and on, but you get the point.

Note that I am okay with OotS because it's a comic, but if this was an actual game I was in... I'd probably walk.

Am I right?

[Kish]

For my part, I agree with none of the above.

The only time I remember Durkon's accent interfering with his spellcasting, it was a joke when he was trying to cast a spell he'd just created and didn't have working yet.

Splitting the party was entirely voluntary. After the Order volunteered to do it, individual characters encountering a challenge that would have been even-CR for the entire party was only to be expected. There being negative consequences to having collaborated with an evil vampire cleric on making a new spell and then fighting that same vampire cleric with that spell constituting a reason to leave a game is a perspective I can't begin to relate to (see my parenthetical on the next one, too).

Turning the character of a still-active player into an NPC would be unfair--but Durkon isn't an NPC. He's trapped inside his own mind and dealing with a roleplaying challenge in his scenes. Maybe that's not for you (I do notice, on this board, a number of people seem to think roleplaying is an optional extra) but that doesn't make it wrong.

The two about Miko I don't even really understand, unless they're suggesting "nothing should ever go significantly against the PCs." Considered as a game none of the PCs were in the scene with the Gate; if you'd walk over it, you're saying you'd walk because of not being told "while you are scattered all over the city, the villain of the campaign has been defeated."

[Porthos]

I've been thinking of this for a while, and I'm of the opinion of that while OotS works perfectly as a story... it's a good thing it's not an actual game going on.

Why? Because there are *way* too many things that would be completely unfair for the PCs(which in this case is the OotS).

• Durkon's accent prevents him from preparing the right spells on occasions - this would be essentially DM fiat to screw with Durkon's player whenever he had a spell that could help a lot.
  
• The "back door" for the Mass Death Ward. Actually, making either Belkar(terrible Will save) or Durkon(similar Cleric levels as Malack, but Malack is a vampire and is 2 CR higher than Durkon) fight against Malack solo, in general.
  
• Vamping Durkon *and* turning him into an NPC even after Malack's gone.
  
• Miko destroying the gate in Azure City.
  
• Miko's essentially a DMPC, so all of her annoying moments are kinda this.
  

The list probably goes on and on, but you get the point.

Note that I am okay with OotS because it's a comic, but if this was an actual game I was in... I'd probably walk.

Am I right?

: "Stupid Railroad Plot." covers most of this, I think.

(and by that I mean the cliche of a 'railroad plot' is a cliche for a very real reason)

For my part, I agree with none of the above.

The only time I remember Durkon's accent interfering with his spellcasting, it was a joke when he was trying to cast a spell he'd just created and didn't have working yet.

Exactly this. I took it to be a humorous way to show a spell research failure.

Ignoring the inherent comedy in a hypothetical RPG session of OotS misses the point, I think. At least a little bit. It's not quite like complaining about the absurdist situations that could arise in PARANOIA. But it's in the same ballpark, I reckon.

[danielxcutter]

For my part, I agree with none of the above.

Fine; let's see why. I have confidence that you at least have a point.

The only time I remember Durkon's accent interfering with his spellcasting, it was a joke when he was trying to cast a spell he'd just created and didn't have working yet.

Oh, I thought it'd already been finished. I guess?

There is the "colon tumor" one, but that's a joke in the early strips, so that doesn't count either.

Splitting the party was entirely voluntary. After the Order volunteered to do it, individual characters encountering a challenge that would have been even-CR for the entire party was only to be expected.

Fair. This is one of the lesser offenses even for me.

Turning the character of a still-active player into an NPC would be unfair--but Durkon isn't an NPC. He's trapped inside his own mind and dealing with a roleplaying challenge in his scenes. Maybe that's not for you (I do notice on this board, a number of people seem to think roleplaying is an optional extra) but that doesn't make it wrong.

If Durkon's player was busy IRL or they'd talked about it already, it wouldn't be a problem, yes. Though I still think it's a jerk move if it'd been done unwillingly on Durkon's player's part.

The two about Miko I don't even really understand, unless they're suggesting "nothing should ever go significantly against the PCs." Considered as a game none of the PCs were in the scene with the Gate; if you'd walk over it, you're saying you'd walk because of not being told "while you are scattered all over the city, the villain of the campaign has been defeated."

The Gate part; yes, I suppose that's not a really good example. But Miko almost feels like she was made to cause friction with the OotS, partly because of her Lawful Stupid ways. Killing Shojo doesn't give her any brownie points either, though it makes sense in a way.

: "Stupid Railroad Plot." covers most of this, I think.

(and by that I mean the cliche of a 'railroad plot' is a cliche for a very real reason)

I'm actually not so annoyed by that one, because Rich thought out how a battle would work out. I think he made a post about that... so that's actually fine because it just happened off-screen.

Exactly this. I took it to be a humorous way to show a spell research failure.

Okay, I guess. Part of this rant might come me being seriously pissed off from some jerk blocking off most of the sites I frequent on the public computer I often use, just to screw with me. I can't use Gmail, Tumblr, Youtube, Deviantart, TvTropes, and several other sites.

Ignoring the inherent comedy in a hypothetical RPG session of OotS misses the point, I think. At least a little bit. It's not quite like complaining about the absurdist situations that could arise in PARANOIA. But it's in the same ballpark, I reckon.

Don't play Paranoia, so not sure what you mean...

[Porthos]

Don't play Paranoia, so not sure what you mean...

Well, by definition, OotS is on one level a parody/satire of RPGs. Or at least started out as one, much like Paranoia started out as a parody/satire of then current RPGs. If one were to run an RPG session like OotS, buying in to some of the inherent tropes of a parody RPG is part and parcel of bellying up to the table. This is one of the things the now cancelled OOTS RPG would have focused on: Making sure the players are "OK" with that sort of thing (as mentioned in the PDF version of either W&XP or DStP [don't recall which]).

Another way to put it is: Come to the table for the parody/humor, stay for the storytelling.

How would something like this play out in a 'real' session? Well Darths & Droids shows that it can be done, though in that case much of the RPG parody comes from the players not the DM.* Still, reasonably analogous.

* In DM of the Rings, it's much more of a two-way street. But in that case it's a pretty dysfunctional group and probably not one to be emulated. D&D's group, by contrast, is a hell of a lot more healthy and well-adjusted. Thus an example of how it could 'work'.

But you absolutely would need player buy-in. But that's pretty much true of all tables, I think. Not for everyone, no. Then again, Roy's sarcastic comments sprinkled throughout the comic, including the one before last, resonates pretty clearly with many a player I would think.

[Kish]

There is the "colon tumor" one, but that's a joke in the early strips, so that doesn't count either.

Also, that's not him trying to cast a spell he has prepared--that's him asking Thor for a spell he doesn't have prepared and doesn't have a free slot for. "Maybe, but I'm going to mess with you first" is the DM being exceptionally generous; the expected answer would be just plain "no."

And even the trouble he has with the automated system has nothing to do with his accent.

The Gate part; yes, I suppose that's not a really good example. But Miko almost feels like she was made to cause friction with the OotS, partly because of her Lawful Stupid ways. Killing Shojo doesn't give her any brownie points either, though it makes sense in a way.

The fact that she was explicitly an antagonist is giving me trouble in whether this should be parsed as "it's a walk-away-from-game offense to have NPC opponents who actually oppose you" or if it's, instead, that all such opponents should be strictly combat adversaries, who fling themselves at you blade-first when they first appear and don't stop until they're dead. Either way I won't be joining you there.

Don't play Paranoia, so not sure what you mean...

Paranoia is a game in which you play the lackeys of the insane and tyrannical Friend Computer, and the object of the game is to be the last player standing--done by throwing the other PCs into the meat grinder as quickly as possibly (within the strictures of your work for Friend Computer, of course; just shooting a loyal lackey without first finding (or creating) evidence that they're traitors would be treason!). You don't play if you can't laugh at your character taking humiliating and probably fatal pratfalls.

[Alcore]

I would love a DM like this.

The problem?

i would have to trust a DM like this



A good DM and a trustworthy DM don't go hand in hand all the time. A good DM isn't always even a great storyteller; they just know the system and players enough to have a good time.


That is the key here

The Order, separately, have had their badass moments. In a normal game you have to be part of a team and can only be a badass as a team. Otherwise people cry foul. A piece to make a whole. D&D was made for that dynamic.


It's fun to buck trends and OotS looks like a blast!

[factotum]

If Durkon's player was busy IRL or they'd talked about it already, it wouldn't be a problem, yes. Though I still think it's a jerk move if it'd been done unwillingly on Durkon's player's part.

What actually happened there is that Durkon's player lost a fight and died. You can argue that might not have happened if his spell hadn't failed, but that's a failure on Durkon's part in trusting a spell that was given him by the very creature he was fighting--if the player was stupid enough to do that even after finding out what Malack was then frankly he deserves everything he gets. Even then, the GM is beneficent enough to say, "Look, you're totally dead at this point, and you're the only cleric on the team, so either you have to re-roll or we can introduce you as a new evil vampire version of yourself--you up for that?".

[Lacuna Caster]

: "Stupid Railroad Plot." covers most of this, I think.

...Ignoring the inherent comedy in a hypothetical RPG session of OotS misses the point, I think. At least a little bit. It's not quite like complaining about the absurdist situations that could arise in PARANOIA. But it's in the same ballpark, I reckon.

Paranoia only works because death is generally a minor inconvenience, which allows the players to take stupid risks without much fear of the consequences. While Raise Dead would theoretically fill the same role, OotS has been bending over backward to make death significant even if cases where the game mechanics and the character motives make this awkward. So it's not a great analogy in that respect.

Turning the character of a still-active player into an NPC would be unfair--but Durkon isn't an NPC. He's trapped inside his own mind and dealing with a roleplaying challenge in his scenes. Maybe that's not for you (I do notice, on this board, a number of people seem to think roleplaying is an optional extra) but that doesn't make it wrong.

That would hold more water if D&D's default rules for handling social encounters weren't both rudimentary and broken. And in non-mechanical terms, Durkula has no reason to bargain or negotiate with Durkon, since he doesn't require cooperation to access his memories and really has no common ground. I severely doubt that any real player would be happy with this situation.

The fact that [Miko] was explicitly an antagonist is giving me trouble in whether this should be parsed as "it's a walk-away-from-game offense to have NPC opponents who actually oppose you" or if it's, instead, that all such opponents should be strictly combat adversaries, who fling themselves at you blade-first when they first appear and don't stop until they're dead...

Ooh, this is a complicated one. I think Miko got a raw deal from readers with a stunning lack of diegetic perspective, particularly in her early appearances, but from a game-being-played perspective, I can absolutely see how she would be annoying. (For that matter, the game-being-played perspective is the only way you can justify Elan and Belkar existing.)

I am not entirely certain if Miko's intervention would count as 'railroading' in an actual game, because while she's powerful, she's not so vastly more powerful than the Order at the time that they couldn't have beaten her with the right tactics and a little luck. However, the text of Paladin Blues describes her as being there, in no small part, to drag the Order somewhere they could have the 'big picture' explained to them, which I think is functionally indistinguishable in intent.


What nails the 'railroading' aspect for me, however- and this is in no way restricted to Miko's involvement- is that OotS plays fast-and-loose with the rules whenever "The Story"- which is to say, whatever panders to the GM's particular sense of drama- happens to demand it. I have an extremely dim view of this approach to campaign structure, and I'm not super-comfortable with it in stories in general. So yeah, I'm gonna say that actual players could easily revolt under such circumstances.

[Peelee]

Paranoia only works because death is generally a minor inconvenience, which allows the players to take stupid risks without much fear of the consequences. While Raise Dead would theoretically fill the same role, OotS has been bending over backward to make death significant even if cases where the game mechanics and the character motives make this awkward.

I, for one, haven't seen any awkwardness about this.

[littlebum2002]

I also want to point out that the next time a player doesn't show up to a game, their character is being used in a tetherball special.

[Lacuna Caster]

I, for one, haven't seen any awkwardness about this.

Therkla and Shojo only stayed dead because they wanted to. I consider this at least a little awkward, given Shojo is supposed by driven by helping his city and Therkla might be headed for a... suboptimal afterlife. I suppose your mileage may vary.

[factotum]

Therkla and Shojo only stayed dead because they wanted to. I consider this at least a little awkward, given Shojo is supposed by driven by helping his city and Therkla might be headed for a... suboptimal afterlife. I suppose your mileage may vary.

Did anyone actually try to resurrect Therkla? I know she *said* she'd rather stay dead if she couldn't be with Elan, but if she really was heading for a suboptimal afterlife then that might well have changed her mind. As for Shojo, he knew darned well that Hinjo would feel honour-bound to put him on trial for all the lies and deceit, so if he *did* answer the call all he'd have to look forward to would be prison--not much he can do to help his city from there!

[Peelee]

Therkla and Shojo only stayed dead because they wanted to. I consider this at least a little awkward, given Shojo is supposed by driven by helping his city and Therkla might be headed for a... suboptimal afterlife. I suppose your mileage may vary.

Choosing to not be rezzed is written into the rules, and is a viable option. Reasons were given in-comic for Shojo (even if as speculation), and as previously stated, nobody tried to rez Therkla (who also stated she didn't want to be rezzed. She acted like an irrational young girl, and made what you consider an irrational choice. I think that's more "consistent character debelopment" than it is "awkward"). The Draketooth clan also refuzed rezzing. Was that awkward?

For that matter, could Therkla even be rezzed? We only know that Durkon is powerful enough to cast Raise Dead, and he didn't have any diamonds on him. Even if we assume he did (because he didn't know yet), he may not have been willing to use them on not-Roy, since that would mean he then couldn't rez Roy. Inn addition to the cost of the diamonds.

Not seeing any awkwardness in those two scenarios.

[Ornithologist]

Now, Rich does kinda talk about this idea in the supplementary material for the PDF DSTP. Mostly in showing off the tiny bit of work he did on the now never being done 3.5 Splatbook he was working on.

also, as an example of a PC becoming a major villian "NPC" and working, look at Darths and Droids, Previously mentioned. In the Hypothetical Oots RPG table, Vampurkon could be played by Durkon's real character with notes from the DM.

In one game I actually ran, I had one PC replaced with a doppleganger, and let them roleplay it. It was hilarious! (Though, the players do need to be good with player/character seperation, and it helps to give XP bonus's to the player for every clue they give to the rest of the party about it without giving it away.)


edit: spelling...

[Kish]

I was only thinking in terms of Durkon still being around and playing a psychological game with Greg, but "in a real game, Durkon's player could also be playing Greg in his interactions with the OotS" is even better.

[Lacuna Caster]

Did anyone actually try to resurrect Therkla? I know she *said* she'd rather stay dead if she couldn't be with Elan, but if she really was heading for a suboptimal afterlife then that might well have changed her mind. As for Shojo, he knew darned well that Hinjo would feel honour-bound to put him on trial for all the lies and deceit, so if he *did* answer the call all he'd have to look forward to would be prison--not much he can do to help his city from there!

Hinjo explicitly comments on wanting Shojo's advice, so apparently he thought that his uncle would be of some help, trial or no.

Choosing to not be rezzed is written into the rules, and is a viable option. Reasons were given in-comic for Shojo (even if as speculation), and as previously stated, nobody tried to rez Therkla (who also stated she didn't want to be rezzed. She acted like an irrational young girl, and made what you consider an irrational choice. I think that's more "consistent character debelopment" than it is "awkward"). The Draketooth clan also refuzed rezzing. Was that awkward?

You have to be more than emotionally strung to essentially commit suicide-by-default. I don't really know enough about the Draketooths to be sure, but yeah, it could be.

I'm pretty sure that Durkon would oblige if asked, and I'm not too concerned with material components when Haley can evidently steal them from hammerspace the casting page.

[Peelee]

You have to be more than emotionally strung to essentially commit suicide-by-default.

Already dying, so not suicide by, well, anything. Also, afterlives knowingly exist. Functionally no different than requesting a real-world DNR. Except, again, provable afterlives.

I'm pretty sure that Durkon would oblige if asked, and I'm not too concerned with material components when Haley can evidently steal them from hammerspace the casting page.

Who would ask? Who, aside from Elan, would want her raised?

Also, you're assuming Durkon knows that Haley can take a diamond through the 4th wall, and even if he does know that, Haley isn't with him, and he still doesn't have the material components. Even if he could get them himself from the cast page, they still have no component for Roy. And even if they did, it's still 5,000 gp- worth of diamonds. Still ain't free

[Lacuna Caster]

Already dying, so not suicide by, well, anything. Also, afterlives knowingly exist.

Yes, they knowingly exist, and knowingly involve never learning new skills or gaining levels while being gradually turned into a uniform alignment-battery, according to the author. (Also, some involve eternal damnation, even for apparently decent people who get caught on the wrong point of a technicality.) If you're going to argue that death is no big deal and mortals would know that, then the Godsmoot subplot kind of becomes pointless.

Why wouldn't Elan ask her to be raised? And if you're going to argue that lack of material components is important, then you can't pull arbitrary hammerspace shenanigans whenever it suits the plot.

[Kish]

The cast page doesn't have diamonds. It had one diamond; it now has an IOU, which isn't the material component for any spell I know of. If you want to say "having broken the fourth wall leaves me unwilling to accept the characters being anything but omnipotent," you can but you should be up-front about the fact that you're doing so.

[Lacuna Caster]

If you want to say "having broken the fourth wall leaves me unwilling to accept the characters being anything but omnipotent," you can but you should be up-front about the fact that you're doing so.

Yeah, something like that.

[Peelee]

Yes, they knowingly exist, and knowingly involve never learning new skills or gaining levels while being gradually turned into a uniform alignment-battery, according to the author. (Also, some involve eternal damnation, even for apparently decent people who get caught on the wrong point of a technicality.) If you're going to argue that death is no big deal and mortals would know that, then the Godsmoot subplot kind of becomes pointless.

Why wouldn't Elan ask her to be raised? And if you're going to argue that lack of material components is important, then you can't pull arbitrary hammerspace shenanigans whenever it suits the plot.

I never said anything close to "death is no big deal." I just pointed out that knowing there is something after death can have a mitigating factor on decisions, such as DNR-equivalents.

Alsp, i would argue that Elan wouldn't ask her to be raised because she told him she didn't want to be raised. Pretty simple.

[goodpeople25]

And if you're going to argue that lack of material components is important, then you can't pull arbitrary hammerspace shenanigans whenever it suits the plot.

Did taking the diamond for the casting page suit or even affect the plot? While Durkon losing the diamonds did happen and made sense regardless of it being introduced just in that strip and to my knowledge not really affecting the plot beyond setting up the rest of the strips gags, I can't think of anything that would cause V's solution to interfere with the plot.

[Kish]

It would have let Vaarsuvius accomplish something (that they recognized as accomplishing something, i.e., something to help the Order, not a fleet of people they couldn't be bothered to learn the names of). But Durkon was only pickpocketed in the first place to set up the joke where Haley can steal the diamond from the cast page; treating that joke as "hammerspace shenanigans" which permanently invalidates any difficulties the Order might have casting Resurrection in the future strikes me as a suboptimal way to approach a humorous webcomic.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, it's not that big a deal in itself. More like one of the straws that preceded the breaking of the camel's back, personally speaking.

[Jasdoif]

But Durkon was only pickpocketed in the first place to set up the joke where Haley can steal the diamond from the cast page; treating that joke as "hammerspace shenanigans" which permanently invalidates any difficulties the Order might have casting Resurrection in the future strikes me as a suboptimal way to approach a humorous webcomic.

Yeah. I generally assume any problem that's resolved in the same strip that introduced it is a "gag-a-day" type of aside, unless/until a later strip calls back to it.

[Legato Endless]

I don't really see the issue. Most deal breakers for players in tabletop rpgs are in execution, not conception. Conceptually there isn't much here beyond personal preferences. (some people don't like that much humor in their games for example)

We don't actually know how heavy handed the game would be, we only see the end result. But the end result is almost never the issue, it's the process that gets you there. Mature players will accept most things if the DM isn't as ******* in how they arbitrated toward that end result. The Giant was a frequent DM before, I don't see why skill would evaporate now based on a pastiche that takes place...in a totally different medium?

And even if it did, storylines by a singular author always have different freedoms that even the most tightly run rpgs can't really replicate. Stylistically though, I think it'd be a fine campaign because there isn't much that couldn't be made workable. Durkon's player simply playing Greg and getting interior scenes as aforementioned.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I could see myself actually enjoying being one of the players in the campaign of OOTS. For most of the moments you mentioned, while they're certainly not all fun for the players involved, I don't think that campaigns have to be entirely successes in order to be enjoyable. What happened with Durkon is probably the kind of thing his player and the DM talked out beforehand, same thing with Roy's death. I think in general, the higher amount of role playing you want to have, the more you'd enjoy a campaign like OOTS with it's fairly intricate storyline and strong opportunities for character development.

[Porthos]

I would just like to point out that I played in a campaign where there was a chance people could be turned into "evil doppelgangers" of themselves thanks to story lore reasons and the people involved were totes okay with it.

It's hardly a stretch to think that someone wouldn't be put off playing a vampire character of themselves. In fact, I would almost go far as saying "Hey, bad juju happened, now you're totes evil, play with it" is another long established trope/cliche in RPGs. As is the "You're evil for a while, and working against the party secretly. The next campaign is everyone else figuring it out and then making you better."

The bigger issue might be Durkula teleporting away for a while. But that could simple be side-session, player controls someone on the Mechane, goes off to another room and plays video games until they gets back into the going of things, or even "we know that Clara isn't here this week because of work, let's have a session where her character is off doing eeeeeeeevil things".

[littlebum2002]

I would just like to point out that I played in a campaign where there was a chance people could be turned into "evil doppelgangers" of themselves thanks to story lore reasons and the people involved were totes okay with it.

It's hardly a stretch to think that someone wouldn't be put off playing a vampire character of themselves. In fact, I would almost go far as saying "Hey, bad juju happened, now you're totes evil, play with it" is another long established trope/cliche in RPGs. As is the "You're evil for a while, and working against the party secretly. The next campaign is everyone else figuring it out and then making you better."

The bigger issue might be Durkula teleporting away for a while. But that could simple be side-session, player controls someone on the Mechane, goes off to another room and plays video games until they gets back into the going of things, or even "we know that Clara isn't here this week because of work, let's have a session where her character is off doing eeeeeeeevil things".

Yeah but there's a difference between "You're Durkon now, just Evil" and "You're a creature living in Durkon's head who is controlling him and trying to undermine the rest of the group"