Armor designs for females?

[ImNotTrevor]

Didn't Amazon made it clear that she is a girl who likes to play those games but has problems with the sexualized female characters?

It's sounds like a valid point, to be unhappy if she pays for something that missrepresents her.

She still needs to vote with her wallet by not purchasing these games. The point stands.

I think her exemples were fine. And what you mean anthromorphical animals? I only see crash.

Who is also played for comedy, which proves the point being made.

Peter can be considered the hero of the show, he is tge main character after all.

Peter isn't meant to be looked up to. Look up Satire. Peter is an idiot, he's fat, and he's not a figure one aspires to be in the same vein as Homer Simpson. He is by no means a hero except by this longshot stretch that breaks down once you, you know, see any episode of Family Guy.

Mask is ugly, lobo is ugly and short, Frodo is short, that guy from psychonauts is ugly, short and has a huge head... I really fail to see the problem.

You're also missing the "generally."

People generally have 10 fingers. There exist people who don't have that many or who have more. This does nothing to invalidate the statement that generally, they have 10.

Ghost Rider is the only one that doesnt fit unless we count Nick Cage.

Which is subjective....

[S@tanicoaldo]

Which is subjective....

I'm sure it is.

[Max_Killjoy]

Probably not necessary.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Probably not necessary.

[SaurOps]

Amen. Create something. Rather than telling other people what trash the stuff they like is, make something better. If it's better, they will come. Or they won't, and someone else will. You get your own fans. A new thing is born. If you feel you cannot create something, then buy, consume, and support things that someone else is doing that you like. If you have a favorite artist who draws kickass fantasy art that you find tasteful, consider showcasing their works.

I mean, it's not like it's hard to find some truly stunning pieces with only the laziest of casual attempts.

You're getting into two logical fallacies here. First, it takes an awful lot of time to develop creative skill, and the individual's creative skill may be in criticism. Secondly, who says that people aren't also creating material as counter-examples? Just as critics of video games will criticize them and also make their own games (in order to create, they did have to at least self-articulate what they wanted to include and what they wanted to leave out, after all), your argument falls flat on account of artists doing the same. People don't need you to "explain" how capitalism works. They've probably sat through the same tired defense enough times to lose count. Meanwhile, captains of industry with massive influence over where development cash goes decide to pick and/or green-light low-hanging fruit... again. Capitalism isn't going to solve the problem if it keeps getting in bed with closed-off, incestuous industry networks.

[ImNotTrevor]

You're getting into two logical fallacies here. First, it takes an awful lot of time to develop creative skill, and the individual's creative skill may be in criticism. Secondly, who says that people aren't also creating material as counter-examples? Just as critics of video games will criticize them and also make their own games (in order to create, they did have to at least self-articulate what they wanted to include and what they wanted to leave out, after all), your argument falls flat on account of artists doing the same. People don't need you to "explain" how capitalism works. They've probably sat through the same tired defense enough times to lose count. Meanwhile, captains of industry with massive influence over where development cash goes decide to pick and/or green-light low-hanging fruit... again. Capitalism isn't going to solve the problem if it keeps getting in bed with closed-off, incestuous industry networks.

I block this easily with the thriving Indie Games scene on PC, citing runaway hits such as Shovel Knight and Undertale, both of which outperformed many AAA titles on their platforms, in both sales and reviews.

I cite also that the only reason these games are made is because people buy them. Stop buying them if they bother you. They have no reason to change anything after you pay. THEY ALREADY HAVE YOUR MONEY.

The point stands.

(As well as for practical reasons. The only other option is widescale economoc upheaval which, well... good luck with that.)

(And the Nic Cage this is just a red herring after the examples were pretty easily and handily dismissed.)

[S@tanicoaldo]

(...) hits such as Shovel Knight and Undertale, both of which outperformed many AAA titles on their platforms, in both sales and reviews.

Funny how you name two games that are very respectful towards the female characters and this whole gender thing, and some posts ago you were talking about how this gender sensibility was harmful to the game industry and not what gamers really want.

If the industry really wants to make money why not listen to this respectful, thought provoking and gender inclusive games? That is what is selling and according to your logic what sells is what is good.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm not sure that "what best grows quarterly numbers and lines the shareholders' pockets" should be the only or biggest touchstone of our entire cultural milieu.

[Satinavian]

If the industry really wants to make money why not listen to this respectful, thought provoking and gender inclusive games? That is what is selling and according to your logic what sells is what is good.

Because that is what already happens ? At least outside of niche genres.

I mean, i just checked the more played games of my steam list (which does include lots of AAA titles) and found 42 games where i have no reason to complain about the find (or lack of) female representation and only 12 where i would find something to complain about. It is not exactly thought provoking to have proper female representation now, it is pretty mainstream. It is not equality, as i found only 3 where i would complain about the male representation, but eh.

Yes, it is worse with MMOs, where the prevalence of WoW and especcially all those Chinese/Korean games leave much to desire and the need for large playerbases leeds to new entries closely following established formulas. It might be also worse on consoles which i don't use, but as the biggest AAA-hype today seems to be Horizon:Zero Dawn, which gets praise for the strong female main character, i am sceptical.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Yay, For diversity! I guess the sexsist problem is a problem that will be solved by itself. If you ignore all the feminists who worked hard for this.

[Floret]

Spoiler: Tangent overanalysing an example

Show

1. Source on these other studies, pls.
2. Make sure to see who the studies were done/funded by. Antivaxxers have research that supports their position, too. All of it is awful, but there you go.
3. How does one control for upbringing, exactly? Unless all the children come from the same home and have the same parents, same level of exposure to their parents, attend the same classes with the same people at school and have the same friends, this cannot be controlled for. Which adds to this smelling strongly of bull excrement. (You would also have to make sure you were controlling for competitiveness and noncompetitiveness, as I show below, as well as their sports activity.)
4. Eliminating faulty data points does not hinder a discussion. It does exactly the opposite.

Competitiveness has a higher effect on aggression than violence in videogames. The study I linked and several japanese studies have reliably demonstrated this. (So mine is international. Weee!l

Meaning violence is more likely from someone who just finished a game of monopoly than from someone who just finished DeathMurder 5.

As always, vote with your wallet. I don't think it's being a feminazi to complain about a character design. Doing it for a game you didn't support, don't play, and never will play is stupid and frankly should be ignored same as a sci-fi fan saying your fantasy game should have laserguns. If you're obviously not a customer, they shouldn't bother. This phenomenon is actually causing issues in the industry, now. Companies are rushing to be all-inclusive, releasing sub-par products intending to pander to the people who apparently care more about well-covered women than game mechanics, and are becoming shocked to learn that people aren't spending money on them because the people complaining never intended to support a change anyways.
It's very amusing to watch an industry feel guilty and pander to a market that doesn't exist in the first place.

Buy the stuff that you support. Telling other people they need to buy what you like is stupid.

1. Since I currently do not have access to the appropriate databases (Due to not having personal accounts there, only due to university), I can rely only on what I have saved on my computer and snowball from there.
Luckily, one of those I still have is a compilation/Metaanalysis of studies from the field of media violence; though it is in German: "Medien und Gewalt. Befunde der Forschung 2004-2009; M. Kunczik and A. Zipfel (2010)." Funded by German gouvernment ministry of Family, Seniors, women and youth - my personal experience calls those people clean in regards to censorship agendas.
From their sections on longitudinal studies, which is what really interest us here, they quote, amongst others:
Bushman, Brad J. / Huesmann, L. Rowell (2006): Short-term and long-term effects of violent media on aggression in children and adults. In: Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine 160, S. 348-352.
Christakis, Dimitri A. / Zimmerman, Frederick J. (2007): Violent television viewing during preschool is associated with antisocial behaviour during school age. In: Pediatrics 120, S. 993-999.
Slater, Michael (u.a.) (2003): Violent media content and aggressiveness in adoles-cents. A downward spiral model. In: Communication Research 30, S. 713-736. Slater, Michael (u.a.) (2004): Vulnerable teens, vulnerable times: How sensation seeking, alienation, and victimization moderate the violent media content-aggressi-veness relation. In: Communication Research 31, S. 642-668.
Zimmerman, Frederick J. (u.a.) (2005): Early cognitive stimulation, emotional sup-port, and television watching as predictors of subsequent bullying among grade-school children. In: Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine 159, S. 384-388.
Ostrov, Jamie M. / Gentile, Douglas A. / Crick, Nicki R. (2006): Media exposure, aggression and prosocial behavior during early childhood: A longitudinal study. In: Social Development 15, S. 612-627.
Graber, Julia A. (u.a.) (2006): A longitudinal examination of family, friend, and media influences on competent versus problem behaviors among urban minority youth. In: Applied Developmental Science 10, S. 75-85.
(And yes, I have read those as well, though that was some years ago, so I don't quite remember all details beyond the summaries in Kunczik/Zipfel that I read again to answer your call for studies. Some of them do have certain problems in their methodology, but overall the direction and presence of a certain effect seems stable enough for me to believe that there is some influence. Again, not a strong one, heavily dependend on covariables, but present. I do no longer remember their funders, but hadn't found anything questionable when I read them.)
2. Sure, I know how to check for validity of studies. Had it drilled into my head for 2 years straight.
3. Checking for the education of the parents, emotional and cognitive support of the kids, the presence of physical punishment, parental depression or problems of the parents dealing with their kids, for example, and taking those into account while looking at the results. Maybe "control" was the wrong word, talking in an academic context, but English is not my first language. Some nuances might not quite sit in my statements.
4. Eliminating faulty datapoints can. Dismissing the oppositions datapoints out of hand (without proof yourself, I might add, though ofc. the usual problems of proving negatives still apply somewhat; and I was the person who made the claims.) not so much. In fact, doing that is really not conductive to a productive discussion.

...Also, why are you asserting so strongly and arguing that Competitiveness is a stronger factor than violence. You do not need to convince me. I know that fact. I already agreed with you. In fact, I pointed this out before you did. You are correct, but your continued pronouncing of this does nothing to further the discussion, and serves more as a distraction/derailment of the point at hand - namely, the effects of media violence that are being discussed, and not the effects of competitiveness.

I wasn't aware SHE was being represented at all. (She isn't)
Did it occur to ANY of you that not only are you trying to talk pro censorship (bad idea given the fact that most of the games we play faced pro censorship movements to eliminate them) but the primary source of these video games is an entirely different culture. You honestly have no legitimate complaint here.

1. Noone is arguing censorship, at most what is being argued is a lack of reflection on the parts of the game developers; alongside a call for change, without anyone calling for that call to be of the legal variety.
2. "This isn't from our culture" is a) unnecessary cultural relativism, just because something is someones culture does not put it beyond criticism and b) entirely tangential to the point since they are played in, thereby part of, and therefore influencing ours. (If all of us can even be considered to have the same culture. I for one am not American, for example.)

You're getting into two logical fallacies here. First, it takes an awful lot of time to develop creative skill, and the individual's creative skill may be in criticism. Secondly, who says that people aren't also creating material as counter-examples? Just as critics of video games will criticize them and also make their own games (in order to create, they did have to at least self-articulate what they wanted to include and what they wanted to leave out, after all), your argument falls flat on account of artists doing the same. People don't need you to "explain" how capitalism works. They've probably sat through the same tired defense enough times to lose count. Meanwhile, captains of industry with massive influence over where development cash goes decide to pick and/or green-light low-hanging fruit... again. Capitalism isn't going to solve the problem if it keeps getting in bed with closed-off, incestuous industry networks.

I just want to highlight this, and thank you for iterating the problem with "vote with your wallet" I tried to make so much better than I could.

I'm not sure that "what best grows quarterly numbers and lines the shareholders' pockets" should be the only or biggest touchstone of our entire cultural milieu.

Also, this.

[ImNotTrevor]

Funny how you name two games that are very respectful towards the female characters and this whole gender thing, and some posts ago you were talking about how this gender sensibility was harmful to the game industry and not what gamers really want.

Quote me making the second argument. Verbatim, not some individual sentence than may construe it.

You'll find I never did.

If the industry really wants to make money why not listen to this respectful, thought provoking and gender inclusive games? That is what is selling and according to your logic what sells is what is good.

The better question is, if this is what sells, and performs well, why are we still crusading against depictions from the 80's?

I'm not sure that "what best grows quarterly numbers and lines the shareholders' pockets" should be the only or biggest touchstone of our entire cultural milieu.

Nobody made this argument either. The only argument was "vote with your wallet." Which is to say, whatever fits your personal morals is what you should support.

We live in a capitalism. Companies hear money and little else. Too bad. Use the tool you have to influence them: your wallet.

It's not a values judgement unless you're so ready to defend your point as to readily paint anyone who doesn't cowtow to it as fullblown sexists (see above). It's pragmatism. Use the most powerful tool available to you.

[Amazon]

Well now that you mention it...
I'm pretty sure I've seen something seen something somewhere, that really kinda looks like those guys from those romance novels, pretty frequently. It's almost like I've seen them somewhere before. Now where could that have been, I wonder...

Let's go:
1-Not in game, everyone one is semi-naked in character creation mode, even kids.
2-Not handsome or sexualized, just muscular, big deal, no one will look at this charatcer and go OMG I need to hit that.
3-That's not how he dress in the game.
4- Mods.
5- Not found.
6- Character art, not how they dress in-game.
7- Same as Shao Kanh, besides I don't know a living person who whould like to f Kratos, he is so scary looking.
8- Cutscene. That's not how he dress in the game.
9 and 10- Male fantasy.
11- Not a game.
12- Not a game.
13-Not a game.

The last 3 were fan art, you complained that I used a main character instead of a "hero" but at least I used a real character rather than fan art.

EDIT:

How does me not buying games will signal that sexist characters are bad exactly?

EDIT 2:

I don't know what's your deal, we are not asking much, none of our requests are out of this world.

Here have eight things developers can do to make games less ****ty for women:

1-Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")

2- "Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)

3- Have female characters of various body types

4- Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.

5-Include more female characters of color.

6- Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.

7-Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic.

8-Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies.

Is this too much to ask? All of these things are fair and rational requests to make in my opinion. Can't see any reason anyone would have a problem with any of them.

[Satinavian]

Is this too much to ask? All of these things are fair and rational requests to make in my opinion. Can't see any reason anyone would have a problem with any of them.

Nr. 3 is expensive and games tend to recycle models as much as they can get away with, often having exactly one male and one female body type in the game (example : xcom-games). But yes, more would be better. Unfortunately i can't see it becoming industry standard until modelling gets much cheaper somehow.

Overall it is a nice list i agree with.

[Mendicant]

I know Ashiel has already replied to your post differently, but I was struck by how hard it was for you to find a counter-example to her assertion. Ashiel said "You don't generally see male heroes who are short, fat, or particularly ugly."

In response you posted various pictures of anthromorphical animals and other non-human characters or characters who are clearly not heros (like Peter Griffin from Family Guy who is a butt monkey), but I think you only identified ONE human character who actually fitted Ashiel's criteria. That was Wolverine from the comic, and even he got an attractiveness upgrade for the movies.

Was it really so hard to identify human male heroes who are " short, fat, or particularly ugly"?

Spoiler: This is a strange hill to die on.

Show

Seriously, I can do five of these for any one similar woman you want to produce. And this is just scratching the surface. What if we included female protagonists, primary antagonists, heroes, etc. who are old, vs. old men? 90% of the old or middle-aged women you'll find will have some explanation for why they're still young and pretty looking -- they're an elf, or a vampire, or a succubus or something. Or remove subjective matters of attractiveness; since I'm sure I'll be inundated with nitpicking about how "this Psychology Today article I found proves that Hellboy is actually sexy, so he doesn't count!" How much do female body shapes vary? How much does their size?

[ImNotTrevor]

How does me not buying games will signal that sexist characters are bad exactly?

Because companies listen to their bottom line first and foremost. When you refuse to buy their products, or organize a general boycott (which is also perfectly acceptable in my eyes) they listen more than if you keep giving them money and complain later. When you keep giving them money for slop, they will continue to produce slop.

EDIT 2:

I don't know what's your deal, we are not asking much, none of our requests are out of this world.

Here have eight things developers can do to make games less ****ty for women:

1-Avoid the Smurfette principle (don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")

2- "Lingerie is not armor" (Dress female characters as something other than sex objects.)

3- Have female characters of various body types

4- Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.

5-Include more female characters of color.

6- Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.

7-Record female character voiceover so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic.

8-Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies.

Is this too much to ask? All of these things are fair and rational requests to make in my opinion. Can't see any reason anyone would have a problem with any of them.

Other than 7 being partially on bad voice acting, these are things that I agree should be changed. And actually I agree with 7 but it's not necessarily totally inaccurate. (Listening to womens tennis audio sounds like some lesbians having a very... intense evening of mutual spanking. To a humorous degree, though. It's not really erotic.)

But these things you've noted are improving already. Buy the games with the improvements, don't buy the ones without.

[S@tanicoaldo]

But these things you've noted are improving already. Buy the games with the improvements, don't buy the ones without.

I wonder why they are improving.

[Tobtor]

Spoiler: This is a strange hill to die on.

Show

Seriously, I can do five of these for any one similar woman you want to produce. And this is just scratching the surface. What if we included female protagonists, primary antagonists, heroes, etc. who are old, vs. old men? 90% of the old or middle-aged women you'll find will have some explanation for why they're still young and pretty looking -- they're an elf, or a vampire, or a succubus or something. Or remove subjective matters of attractiveness; since I'm sure I'll be inundated with nitpicking about how "this Psychology Today article I found proves that Hellboy is actually sexy, so he doesn't count!" How much do female body shapes vary? How much does their size?

I very much agree.

To those people who deny that male characters show alot more diversity, and explain it away whith "humor/background story/a race that isnt human etc". While this may sometimes be true, it just show that male characters fill many different roles in story-telling (tragic stories, humorous stories, epic stories etc), while women are either "sexy enemies", "sexy princesses who needs saving", and if they are really luvcky "sexy heroines".

If looking across games/media you can also notice a predominants of "male dwarfs" and "female elves" (substitute with relevant race/type in the world).

You also see this with actors: you can have actors like Dani DeVito who made a career out of being short, fat and ungly (even being main character in some movies). You dont see feamle actors do that.

[Amazon]

I wonder why they are improving.

Spoiler

Show

*giggle*

[Max_Killjoy]

Maybe I'm an old grump, but I really wish we could do without the memes and animated gifs...

I wonder why they are improving.

Awesome effort... 98%... still has "boob plate".

Kinda funny that the comments I'm seeing about her include several variations on "well she's Russian so it's still a stereotyple Blizzard fail"... guess there's no winning with some people. (See my immediately previous comment for irony...)

[Ashiel]

You also see this with actors: you can have actors like Dani DeVito who made a career out of being short, fat and ungly (even being main character in some movies). You dont see feamle actors do that.

[Amazon]

Maybe I'm an old grump, but I really wish we could do without the memes and animated gifs...

Sorry, S@tanicoaldo seem to have a bad influence on me.

But anyway, the point is we don't need to talk with our money if we can talk with our mouths.




@Ashiel :

*mimicking Ashiel voice*: Oh, but she is not as short as DeVito so your entire point is irelevant.

[Max_Killjoy]

Sorry, S@tanicoaldo seem to have a bad influence on me.

But anyway, the point is we don't need to talk with our money if we can talk with our mouths.

I like both.

It's good to not spend your own money on products you don't want to support.

There's also nothing wrong with rationally and factually discussing why you don't spend money on those products, so that other people can also make informed decisions.

[Ashiel]

If looking across games/media you can also notice a predominants of "male dwarfs" and "female elves" (substitute with relevant race/type in the world).

That's just 'cause people can't tell the difference.

"It's the beards," - Aragorn

[Satinavian]

I wonder why they are improving.

Considering it is not actually a new trend, i wouldn't draw connections to some internet personalities.

[Amazon]

I like both.

It's good to not spend your own money on products you don't want to support.

There's also nothing wrong with rationally and factually discussing why you don't spend money on those products, so that other people can also make informed decisions.

But I can't play a fighting game that uses medieval weapons as the main form of combat anywhere else, why should I reduce my amount of fun? It’s unfair.

It's like stop going to a park next to my house because it's badly preserved rather than fighting for it to improve.

[Mendicant]

Spoiler: I can do this all day.

Show

[Ashiel]

@Ashiel :
*mimicking Ashiel voice*: Oh, but she is not as short as DeVito so your entire point is irelevant.

I'm just being cheeky.

For the record, I never claimed your entire point was irrelevant. Merely pointing out that I didn't think your response reflected what I said, and then noted why I thought your examples were questionable (particularly since they're largely the exceptions, or are representations of the very characters I had made exceptions for - no kidding, I was thinking specifically of Deadpool when I talked about ugly dudes in masks). I've never heard of anyone talking about how hunky the hobbits were but Aragorn and Legolas? Oh boy, not a dry seat in the theater.

I'd also like to note that, again, a lot of these things feel really similar to moral outrage complaints over violent video games and such (which stick with me here for a bit). We've established that there are indeed great and plentiful alternatives for games if you don't want sexy in your games (except Stardew Valley - hooollleee sheeetz those gals are hotter than freshly lotion on a miami bound efreeti's buttcheeks). However, folks pick these particular games to complain about, painting them as the face of an industry, a hobby, a passion.

It's like when people used to groan that video games are all violent, bloodthirsty things, that teach you to murder and commit crimes, and telling developers that Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto are bad, should be changed, are too insert thing I don't like here, etc. Well, that tends to piss off people who like those things about it, and when you've got lots of alternative games to play, why are you trying to piss in their cheerios? Go play Mario, or Harvest Moon, or Marvel vs Capcom, or Age of Empires, or Baldur's Gate, or any other billion titles that caters to your artistic bent. Maybe try to raise voices and speak about games you'd like to see.

"We really like mortal kombat's gameplay, but the comically extreme levels of violence is kind of off putting to us. We'd really like to get an MK-lite or something for us," is far less likely to rub anyone's fur the wrong way. Especially compared to something like "We really like mortal kombat's gameplay, but it's comically extreme levels of violence influence undesirable effects in society, so future mortal kombat games shouldn't include fatalities or blood," which will instantly mark a big "*******" sign on your forehead to every MK player around.

[Amazon]

I I've never heard of anyone talking about how hunky the hobbits were but Aragorn and Legolas? Oh boy, not a dry seat in the theater.

But that wasn't the point!!!!! -_-'

The point was not how hot and sexy hobbits are, the point was how male heros can be something other than hot with supermodel like bodies! They can be short, tall, muscular, fat, ugly etc...

Besides, I'm not asking for no sexy girls in hentai games or Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, I'm asking no sexualized girls in games where sexualized girls are not the core element.

If it makes sense for a charatcer to be sexy and sexualized, go for it, the problem when that is the norm.

I dare you to find me one, ONE! Mainstream, classic and iconic female superhero who is not super sexy according to the beauty patterns of our society.

[Max_Killjoy]

But that wasn't the point!!!!! -_-'

The point was not how hot and sexy hobbits are, the point was how male heros can be something other than hot with supermodel like bodies! They can be short, tall, muscular, fat, ugly etc...

Besides, I'm not asking for no sexy girls in hentai games or Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, I'm asking no sexualized girls in games where sexualized girls are not the core element.

If it makes sense for a charatcer to be sexy and sexualized, go for it, the problem when that is the norm.

I dare you to find me one, ONE! Mainstream, classic and iconic female superhero who is not super sexy according to the beauty patterns of our society.

The Grrlpower webcomic actually lampshades that by making it part of the lore that whatever it is that gives people superpowers (no one has figured it out yet) also seems to universally give them exaggeratedly "perfect" physiques and appearances.

The lead protagonist gets her powers from a different origin, and is "not amused".