OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

[Basement Cat]

I wonder if the author has received any complains at all for abusing Norse mythology.

Given what Marvel Comics has done to Norse mythology I expect he's fine.

And now we know about the bet. But one thing I'm curious about is how do they enforce a 'bet'?

[Random Sanity]

I wonder if the author has received any complains at all for abusing Norse mythology.

Meh - Rich has absolutely nothing on Marvel in that area.

[ManuelSacha]

Thrym, you don't need a "punny name".
You are the god of frost giants.
You have a limitless amount of cold puns to make!
Has Arnold Schwarzenegger taught us nothing?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm getting the feeling that Hel is not the birhgtest bulb in the Pantheon. I mean, I guess everyone looks a bit slow next to Loki, but she really seems to miss a lot of things.

It is interesting that this bet was almost entirely at the behest of Loki. I have to wonder what his end game in all this is. Also, I'm glad to know I was right that we'd be seeing more background.

I hope to see plenty more hellosh puns in the strips to come.

[Cedar]

I imagine that, if a Dwarf were to abandon both the Northern Gods and the Dwarven concept of Honor, he may no longer be subject to it. Then again, someone like Hilgya, who rejects the Dwarven concept of honor but, crucially, also still worships a Northern God, would probably still be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Maybe Hilgya could still end up outside of Hell's grasp. The concept of 'Honour' is not necessarily exactly the same as the concept of 'Good'. If Hilgya died on a mission from her god as their cleric, that might count as a 'honourable death'.

The ideas about 'honourable' behaviour has changed all the time in history (just take a look at the wildly different ethics of the Iliad and Odyssey) after all.

[Jasdoif]

I'm getting the feeling that Hel is not the birhgtest bulb in the Pantheon. I mean, I guess everyone looks a bit slow next to Loki, but she really seems to miss a lot of things.

Wouldn't Sunna be the brightest?

[Avianmosquito]

Wouldn't Sunna be the brightest?

We need a slow clap emoji.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wouldn't Sunna be the brightest?

I guess that was kind of the glaringly obvious rejoinder, wasn't it?

[Psyren]

And I think if anything, my second favorite deity might lean towards chaos. Though my actual favorite is NG, for sure.

I'd say Odin is probably TN if not LN. Certainly his reason for voting No, though obscure, did not seem to be as rooted in compassion or justice as that of the other good gods.

[Aquillion]

For some reason, I get the idea that Loki was doing this to wind up Thor, and Thor going ahead and informing the dwarves of how this all works was more or less a byproduct of the bet. I am not seeing why Loki would screw over his daughter like that. Then again, as a Trickster style of God, he is a bit chaotic ...

Decent comic strip, and this comic folds in nicely with the comment Giant made a few years back about "life isn't fair, dwarves have a society with rigid rules ...".

And as a follow up on dwarves building that social structure for *reasons*.

Loki actually seems relatively decent from everything we've seen of him to date, or at least sane. He was the one presenting the argument against destroying the world, for instance.

(Also, it occurs to me that this probably made Loki the default god for evil-aligned dwarven priests, giving him many more clerics than he would have otherwise and, therefore, much more influence.)

[Jasdoif]

I guess that was kind of the glaringly obvious rejoinder, wasn't it?

The glaringly obvious one, sure. Highlights the prominence of the flares, that sort of thing.

If that's too spotty....There's also "When Hel accepted the bet she had never had to do anything, so why would she think not doing anything was a problem; and just now, she's turned the coincidental failures of three high-level clerics from three different pantheons into a shot at reversing the status quo of the last millennium with very little lead time. Maybe she's learned to apply herself?"

But that doesn't look quite as stellar at first glance

[pendell]

Maybe Hilgya could still end up outside of Hell's grasp. The concept of 'Honour' is not necessarily exactly the same as the concept of 'Good'. If Hilgya died on a mission from her god as their cleric, that might count as a 'honourable death'.

While the Giant has not ruled on this, I suspect that a cleric pledged to a god belongs to that god after death. So Hilgya won't go to Hel -- though her afterlife, being CE, will probably not be notably more comfortable.

And yes, in retrospect the brightest bulb in the pantheon was ... blindingly obvious.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Psyren]

(Also, it occurs to me that this probably made Loki the default god for evil-aligned dwarven priests, giving him many more clerics than he would have otherwise and, therefore, much more influence.)

That's also a good point. With Hel out of the picture where living evil dwarven clerics are concerned, I can't think of anyone in the pantheon who'd benefit more than he would. Doing so would then give him the influence needed to branch outside of being a racial deity, and set up shop in more diverse locales like Greysky that Hel would now have no hope of breaking into.

[Shoelessgdowar]

And there we have the reason why dwarves get such a raw deal: Loki.

Thanks, Giant!

Seriously, half of Norse mythology is people not realizing you should never make a bet with Loki

Skrymir would disagree, as he won all the bets... Of course, perhaps that is because his other name is Utgard-LOKI... so Outlands Loki beat Asgard Loki.

[Jasdoif]

While the Giant has not ruled on this, I suspect that a cleric pledged to a god belongs to that god after death.

I'm rather certain that doesn't apply to dwarves who haven't died honorable deaths. I know there's an example referring to this somewhere...ah yes.

Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle.

[Avianmosquito]

Skrymir would disagree, as he won all the bets... Of course, perhaps that is because his other name is Utgard-LOKI... so Outlands Loki beat Asgard Loki.

I'm just going to sit back and see if anything happens to this post.

[pendell]

I'm rather certain that doesn't apply to dwarves who haven't died honorable deaths. I know there's an example referring to this somewhere...ah yes.

In this particular case, it is because Durkon was vampirized. If he had not been vampirized, he would have died honorably and gone to Valhalla.

Maybe Hilgya also has to die "honorably", which just shows how messed up the rules were, if managing to get killed at the last second makes up for a lifetime of betrayal and murder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, it occurs to me that this probably made Loki the default god for evil-aligned dwarven priests, giving him many more clerics than he would have otherwise and, therefore, much more influence.

Good call. He was working the con on Hel to get her clerics to serve him. I'll go with that.

[aurilee]

I like how taken aback Hel is that she got tricked by Loki...the trickster god. It's in his title. C'mon now.

[runeghost]

Aand some plot clarification.

Inquiring minds want to know: What happened to Hel's legs?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

While I certainly don't have any special knowledge, my guess is that her lower half is "ghost", maintaining a sort-of parallel to Norse myth.

[Keltest]

In this particular case, it is because Durkon was vampirized. If he had not been vampirized, he would have died honorably and gone to Valhalla.

Maybe Hilgya also has to die "honorably", which just shows how messed up the rules were, if managing to get killed at the last second makes up for a lifetime of betrayal and murder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Given that betrayal and murder is her literal job, it strikes me that getting killed as a result of her betrayal and murdering would count as honorable for her much in the way getting assassinated counts as honorable for that politician earlier.

[Shoelessgdowar]

That may be a plot twist coming - the moment when Loki points out to Hel that yes, there is a loophole, and the dwarves are marching through it to Thor's domain. In perfect formation and step, singing doleful dirges, but marching through nonetheless, because Dwarves.

The simplest loophole is already there... WAR WITH YOUR ENEMIES. Ie. Politicians begin battling in the arena you are best suited for (Big Debate, with lots of yelling), everyone attack the trees, babies hit the othe babis with your rattle hammers, Dwarf Nerds get into a D&D encounter and argue with your DM, etc.

If they are in conflict when the world ends, they die honorably in battle.

It's amazing that actually works, but that explains their fear of trees.

The question is, who gets the Trees' souls.

While I certainly don't have any special knowledge, my guess is that her lower half is "ghost", maintaining a sort-of parallel to Norse myth.

Hel is half-dead/half-living, dead half is hideous while living half is hauntingly beautiful, traditionally that is right half alive (right 5 letter word, alive 5 letter word) while left half is dead (left 4 letter word, dead 4 letter word)(how I remember which is which), but Rich and other Authors are free to represent their version however they like (Brathalla had top half a cute goth teen, bottom half a rotting zombie... Someone on here suggested front alive back ghostly) whatever works for you, as she does appear to be bottom half or back half ghost here.

I'm just going to sit back and see if anything happens to this post.

What could happen? Is Utgard a bad word?

[factotum]

I like how taken aback Hel is that she got tricked by Loki...the trickster god. It's in his title. C'mon now.

He's also her father, maybe she didn't believe he would trick her?

[The Pilgrim]

"I made a deal with the God of Mischief. What could go wrong?"

Also, Durkon's speech to Hylgia back to DCF now makes a lot of sense. Being a dwarf is all about doing your duty, because otherwise Hel gets your soul for all Eternity.

[Tiltowait]

Inquiring minds want to know: What happened to Hel's legs?

She's actually a snakefolk - and she's studied a variety of exotic holding techniques. Undignified, to be sure, but you will not escape.

[Avianmosquito]

What could happen? Is Utgard a bad word?

No, but you're about the hundreth person talking about actual Norse myth outside the comic, and even though people do that all the time, according to Roland st Jude apparently counts it as real-world religion. So I'm just curious if that ruling has changed since August 13th, 2014, or if there's some other reason.

[DaggerPen]

I think the scenario's rather disproportionate for "poor understanding of the concept of investment", though.

Agreed, but it's hard to separate it as a consequence of "poor understanding of the concept of investment" from a consequence of "actively tortures and abuses the souls in her domain and then wonders why the dwarves go to such length to avoid her realm." To wit-

Indeed. To dwarves, only death in battle is honourable (which is a bit stupid when you think about it) and Hel could advertise her afterlive as being for pacifists. No one forces her to be evil. Indeed, I am not sure Hel was/is evil in the original mythology. There's often some flanderizing in popular culture.

THIS! Thank you. It's something that had always bothered me about depictions of Norse mythology. Hel is NEVER portrayed as evil.
She was given her own quiet realm because Hel was the only introverted god in Norse mythology. She was never evil, just quiet. And since vikings were pretty much the opposite of quiet they basically went: 'Why don't you go play over there... by yourself...'

And then everywhere you see a story with Hell in it she's basically the devil... who the F started that?

If Hel was just a quiet goddess who got screwed over and made a nice little afterlife with what she could but still only got scraps because everyone wanted the showy Valhalla afterlife, I would have sympathy for her. As is, I've got a bit of pity, but that's it.

Something like Loki going "OK guys, this was funny for a few centuries, but I think we're all tired of all this arguing over so many souls that only ever seem to go to Thor or Hel; can we all agree to nullify their wager now?" could've solved a lot of problems for everyone.

Honestly it surprises me that he hasn't tried it, too. My thoughts are either:

1. He is getting something out of it.
2. He did try it but Thor refused to nullify it because he's getting a bunch more souls than he would otherwise (or Hel refused for some infathomable reason)
3. The prize for winning is really really good
4. Something else I didn't think of

I like how taken aback Hel is that she got tricked by Loki...the trickster god. It's in his title. C'mon now.

Who did she think he was, the bringer of pestilence?

(Oh my god that comic's even funnier now that we know Hel is the Norse Bringer of Pestilence, but I digress-)

That having been said-

He's also her father, maybe she didn't believe he would trick her?

It strikes me as reasonably likely that she thought Loki was trying to screw over Thor and didn't think it through.

[B. Dandelion]

It strikes me as reasonably likely that she thought Loki was trying to screw over Thor and didn't think it through.

Yeah, this, I think.

Tricking somebody into thinking you're going to work with them to screw somebody else over is often a very effective method for conning people, or so I hear. It's a bit hard to muster up too much sympathy for someone who falls prey to such a trick, but when it's your dad, I could see why Hel might be feeling betrayed.

[Keltest]

Yeah, this, I think.

Tricking somebody into thinking you're going to work with them to screw somebody else over is often a very effective method for conning people, or so I hear. It's a bit hard to muster up too much sympathy for someone who falls prey to such a trick, but when it's your dad, I could see why Hel might be feeling betrayed.

We are, of course, assuming it actually was a trick, and that Thor didn't later come around to Loki and throttle him until he promised to help get Thor the upper hand.

[The MunchKING]

For some reason, I get the idea that Loki was doing this to wind up Thor, and Thor going ahead and informing the dwarves of how this all works was more or less a byproduct of the bet. I am not seeing why Loki would screw over his daughter like that. Then again, as a Trickster style of God, he is a bit chaotic ...

I wonder if her perhaps didn't mean for it to screw her over quite as much as it did. Like he was trying to make a point and get her to think a bit more about her life choices, but then she ended up getting next to nothing and being banned from everything the other Gods do because she didn't have any Clerics. Granted I'm judging that on his one line when she was loud and angry at him, so maybe he was just trying to backpedal to keep her from trying to smack him. But I wonder if he knew how hard it would be to get undead Clerics going when he set up the bet.

So Loki played a mean trick on his daughter. I wonder why? Why on earth would Loki want Thor to gain souls while Hel lost them?

Other than being tricksy by nature. We've seen recently that ascribing deep thoughts to the OotSverse gods is a mistake; it may be that Loki's motivations went no deeper than "Lulz it's 2 days past the full moon and I haven't outsmarted my daughter in several days so ... ah, yes!".

Really? I thought they were recently proving they were much smarter when they cared then in past strips when they were mostly goofing off.

I suppose the gods have their set relationships, but if I were an OOTS norse deity, and a god named Loki showed up to offer me a tantalizing bargain, I'd reject it on principle.

The problem is telling whetehr he's trying to screw you with the deal, or your just a patsy while he screws someone else, and you would walk away with the goods if you took him up on it.

(Emphasis mine.)
Clerics go to their God's personal domain after death. So a Cleric of Thor, even one who was non-CG, would go to Thor's domain, presumably in Valhalla. (Note that, in Planescape, Valhalla is actually the Plane of CN with CG Tendencies, but that's a whole other matter.) Either way, presumably Loki's Clerics to go to hs personal domain after death, whatever their alignments in life were, and so on.

Well while the rules allow some leeway, you would also assume most Clerics would have the same Alignment as their God, so their God's home plane would probably be their alignment plane.

On the other hand, honestly, if she didn't make her afterlife so hellishly (pardon) unpleasant, she wouldn't be in this mess. Many wouldn't try so hard to die with honor if hers was the "free pizza and beer for everyone regardless of alignment" afterlife.

It actually seems quite nice compared to the actual Norse concept of Helhiem. She was into torturing dudes for eternity in nasty ways in that one. None of this "empty cavern and you have to clean my stone throne" stuff.