Is every father in OoTS a jerk (or worse)?

[KorvinStarmast]

There are, in my opinion, far fewer people who deserve children than people who have them. Although I'm not sure which father you're talking about here.

I don't understand what "deserve" has to do with this. People have been having children since there were people.

[Chei]

I agree. That said, I still wouldn't think of Horace as a Homophobe.

I think there's room for Horace to not be a homophobe, but still have the kind of hetero-normative, gendered views that say "men like physical activity and girls, and if a man doesn't like one, he must not like the other." I think he tried to be a good father, but only knows how to raise a person similar to himself.

[Jasdoif]

I think that's underselling the complexity of Tarquin's motivations. Yes, his ego played a part, but he also honestly believed that he was doing right by Elan and providing him the best situation to be a hero that he could. His ego did cause a fundamental misunderstanding/rejection of the reality of the situation they were in, but drawing a straight line between his ego and his assault on his children doesn't capture the situation especially well.

I think that's appealing to the complexity over the motivations.

Yes indeed, Tarquin believed he was doing right by providing Elan with the situation to be the best hero he could...in Tarquin's story, which Tarquin believes makes himself even cooler in comparison. When Nale outright refused to ever play his part in Tarquin's story, Tarquin simply removed him from the story...also the state of living. And when Elan was getting away, while Tarquin wanted him to get away, Tarquin decided "They're not following my script! I need to get aboard, mutilate Elan, and kill everyone else; then it will be a revision of my script, but still my script".

[Keltest]

I think that's appealing to the complexity over the motivations.

Yes indeed, Tarquin believed he was doing right by providing Elan with the situation to be the best hero he could...in Tarquin's story, which Tarquin believes makes himself even cooler in comparison. When Nale outright refused to ever play his part in Tarquin's story, Tarquin simply removed him from the story...also the state of living. And when Elan was getting away, while Tarquin wanted him to get away, Tarquin decided "They're not following my script! I need to get aboard, mutilate Elan, and kill everyone else; then it will be a revision of my script, but still my script".

Sure. Tarquin's ego had a huge effect on everything he did. But it wasn't an active driving force that he sought to appease for its own sake, it was more of a behind the scenes force that only laid the framework for his decision making process. It affected his perceptions, but feeding it for its own sake was never the goal.

[JennTora]

I think that's appealing to the complexity over the motivations.

Yes indeed, Tarquin believed he was doing right by providing Elan with the situation to be the best hero he could...in Tarquin's story, which Tarquin believes makes himself even cooler in comparison. When Nale outright refused to ever play his part in Tarquin's story, Tarquin simply removed him from the story...also the state of living. And when Elan was getting away, while Tarquin wanted him to get away, Tarquin decided "They're not following my script! I need to get aboard, mutilate Elan, and kill everyone else; then it will be a revision of my script, but still my script".

This. The point of Tarquin's character, I think, is that while he technically tries to be a good father*, good father is defined by him, and that definition involves making sure his kids' stories play out like they're supposed to, and how they're supposed to play out is, of course, defined by Tarquin. In short, he's a narcissist of the worst kind.

*good evil father, anyway.

[Jasdoif]

Sure. Tarquin's ego had a huge effect on everything he did. But it wasn't an active driving force that he sought to appease for its own sake, it was more of a behind the scenes force that only laid the framework for his decision making process. It affected his perceptions, but feeding it for its own sake was never the goal.

...No, I'm rather certain that Tarquin's ego was an active driving force for him, on account of all the active driving he did to force it on everyone else.

[woweedd]

I think that's appealing to the complexity over the motivations.

Yes indeed, Tarquin believed he was doing right by providing Elan with the situation to be the best hero he could...in Tarquin's story, which Tarquin believes makes himself even cooler in comparison. When Nale outright refused to ever play his part in Tarquin's story, Tarquin simply removed him from the story...also the state of living. And when Elan was getting away, while Tarquin wanted him to get away, Tarquin decided "They're not following my script! I need to get aboard, mutilate Elan, and kill everyone else; then it will be a revision of my script, but still my script".

Tarquin doesn't look at other people as people. He looks at them as fictional chartres in "The Saga of Tarquin" and every one of them except his sons are just background detail. To him, Nale and Elan rebelling is the equivalent of a computer malfunction, annoying but, in his mind, easily fixed. He looks at murdering Nale as like throwing out a device that refuses to work.

[The Pilgrim]

Maybe Belkar's father was a good... mmh... okay, next!

Vaarsuius' father? Main problem is we will never know whose of hir parents is the father. If any.

Therkla's father was a good one, according to her flashback pannel on him.

[The MunchKING]

Therkla's father was a good one, according to her flashback pannel on him.

He loved her mom.

That is literally all the characterization we get for him. We don't know how good or not of a father he was.

[woweedd]

He loved her mom.

That is literally all the characterization we get for him. We don't know how good or not of a father he was.

I assume he was good, purely because that is the joke. IE that almost every Half-Orc has a dysfunctional upbring in D&D, but Therkla's parents were very stable.

[Quebbster]

Inkyrius is a good parent. Vaarsuvius makes up for it though.

[Themrys]

Inkyrius is a good parent. Vaarsuvius makes up for it though.

They're an interesting case. Do we count them as fathers because neither of them gave birth to the children (kids are adopted), or do we go from their (unknown) sex here?

For all we know they could be a heterosexual couple and Vaarsuvius could be an awful mother and Inkyrius a good father.



Therkla's father was a good one? The one who subjected her to having to watch her parents doing icky things like kissing and calling each other cutesy pet names? Not sure Therkla agrees.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Therkla's a teenager. Parents basically exist to embarrass her regularly.

And I code V as female just because (to paraphrase the Giant) the Crappy Parenting Brigade needs some female energy.

[Liquor Box]

It depends how you read it I guess. I didn't read horace's comment as "Eugene displayed some characteristics commonly associated with homosexual men and I was therefore expecting him to be homosexual."

I read it as, "Eugene didn't like bashing things with a big sword, and was a bookworm. That's girly so I thought he'd wind up gay."

But as we don't have clues like tone of voice and stuff we have to interpret the material.

I'm not sure what the difference is between your two statements. Isn't the second just a more specific iteration of the first? As in not liking bashing things with a sword, and liking books were the "characteristics commonly associated with homosexual men"?

Also, I'm not sure that if Horace was pleasantly surprised by his son's hetrosexuality, it would mean that he was a bad father.

[woweedd]

I'm not sure what the difference is between your two statements. Isn't the second just a more specific iteration of the first? As in not liking bashing things with a sword, and liking books were the "characteristics commonly associated with homosexual men"?

Also, I'm not sure that if Horace was pleasantly surprised by his son's hetrosexuality, it would mean that he was a bad father.

Being disappointed in your child for things beyond their control would be pretty bad parenting, no? It's more of a hypothetical IE What if Eugene was actually Gay? Ideally, a Good parent should be willing to accept their child, no matter who they love or the choices they make, as long as the choices they make aren't ,you know, crimes.

[Liquor Box]

Being disappointed in your child for things beyond their control would be pretty bad parenting, no? It's more of a hypothetical IE What if Eugene was actually Gay? Ideally, a Good parent should be willing to accept their child, no matter who they love or the choices they make, as long as the choices they make aren't ,you know, crimes.

No I don't think being disappointed in a child for things is necessarily bad parenting. For example if a parent hopes that a child will follow in their footsteps in terms of profession, I don't think it is bad parenting to disappointed if the child makes a different choice - so ok for Horace to be disappointed that Eugene chose to be a wizard, not a fighter. I think that is true even where it wasn't a choice by Eugene (eg, he was simply not strong enough to be a fighter). I think it would be a but over the top to expect a parent never to feel disappointed by any aspect of their child's nature.

Where I think it crosses the line into being an aspect of bad parenting is where it goes beyond mere disappointment and a bit of teasing and crosses into thinking less of the child and berating/bullying them for the choices they make (or the way they end up, which is beyond their control) - So how Eugene treats Roy crosses the line into bad parenting because he does not merely feel an internal sense of disappointment that Roy is not a wizard, he actually thinks of Roy as less of a person because of that and berates him because of it.



It's funny that you choose to portray Horace's hypothetical disappointment in his son's sexuality as a bad thing (actually there is no disappointment), but you do not portray Horace's very real and apparent disappointment that Eugene became a wizard and not a fighter as being a bad thing. You may distinguish the two as one being a choice (becoming a wizard) and the other not, but I wonder if there is a degree to which your outrage is flamed by one being a social justice issue.

[woweedd]

No I don't think being disappointed in a child for things is necessarily bad parenting. For example if a parent hopes that a child will follow in their footsteps in terms of profession, I don't think it is bad parenting to disappointed if the child makes a different choice - so ok for Horace to be disappointed that Eugene chose to be a wizard, not a fighter. I think that is true even where it wasn't a choice by Eugene (eg, he was simply not strong enough to be a fighter). I think it would be a but over the top to expect a parent never to feel disappointed by any aspect of their child's nature.

Where I think it crosses the line into being an aspect of bad parenting is where it goes beyond mere disappointment and a bit of teasing and crosses into thinking less of the child and berating/bullying them for the choices they make (or the way they end up, which is beyond their control) - So how Eugene treats Roy crosses the line into bad parenting because he does not merely feel an internal sense of disappointment that Roy is not a wizard, he actually thinks of Roy as less of a person because of that and berates him because of it.



It's funny that you choose to portray Horace's hypothetical disappointment in his son's sexuality as a bad thing (actually there is no disappointment), but you do not portray Horace's very real and apparent disappointment that Eugene became a wizard and not a fighter as being a bad thing. You may distinguish the two as one being a choice (becoming a wizard) and the other not, but I wonder if there is a degree to which your outrage is flamed by one being a social justice issue.

A. I believe Horace's disappointment in his son's choice to become a Wizard is also a bad thing. B. Please stop with the allegations, thank you.

[hamishspence]

When does he say in conversation with Roy that he was disappointed with Eugene choosing Wizard as a career?

I think what upset him about Eugene was "Always telling me how stupid I was" - not so much "being a wizard".

[Morty]

When talking about poor-quality parenting, murdering your child is kind of hard to top. Causing their death through neglect, as Eugene did, still ranks below.

[JennTora]

I'm not sure what the difference is between your two statements. Isn't the second just a more specific iteration of the first? As in not liking bashing things with a sword, and liking books were the "characteristics commonly associated with homosexual men"?

Also, I'm not sure that if Horace was pleasantly surprised by his son's hetrosexuality, it would mean that he was a bad father.

Oh, yeah. My posts don't have tone of voice either.

The first is meant to be read as a matter of fact kind of statement, like "huh, weird. Thought he'd be homosexual."

The second was meant to be read as a "wtf?! I'm really shocked that my nerdy book loving bashing things with a piece of folded metal hating son turned out to like the gender that manly monster stomping manly men are supposed to like."

I thought i did a good job wording them so they'd be read that way the first time, guess not.

[Liquor Box]

A. I believe Horace's disappointment in his son's choice to become a Wizard is also a bad thing. B. Please stop with the allegations, thank you.

A. You didn;t say so, despite one being a reality, and the other only being a hypothetical
B. What allegations?

Fair enough though, my speculation may not have been accurate. Anyway, as already noted, I disagree. I think it is an unrealistically high standard to hold a parent to that they never be disappointed by any choice their child makes (unless that choice is criminal, or along those lines') or characteristic of that child. I think people all have certain hopes with regard to their children and are entitled to feel disappointed if their child goes a different path to what they think is right or best or whatever, so long as they ultimately accept it as the child's decision and do not bully them or berate them over it.

If you were a strong believer that one political party in your homeland (wherever that may be) was the better choice, but your child disagreed and voted for the other, would you be at all disappointed? If you were disappointed, would that be wrong of you if you accepted their choice despite your disappointment and did not let their voting preference become a source of angst?

[Liquor Box]

Oh, yeah. My posts don't have tone of voice either.

The first is meant to be read as a matter of fact kind of statement, like "huh, weird. Thought he'd be homosexual."

The second was meant to be read as a "wtf?! I'm really shocked that my nerdy book loving bashing things with a piece of folded metal hating son turned out to like the gender that manly monster stomping manly men are supposed to like."

I thought i did a good job wording them so they'd be read that way the first time, guess not.

So the difference is the amount of shock? In the first case he merely thought it "weird", in the second he was "really shocked"?

[Liquor Box]

When does he say in conversation with Roy that he was disappointed with Eugene choosing Wizard as a career?

I think what upset him about Eugene was "Always telling me how stupid I was" - not so much "being a wizard".

I don't think he does say it explicitly. I think it can be inferred though. Horace does comment that Eugene always had his head buried in a book (and from the context, that comment appears negative), and two panes later says how proud he is of Roy for being a fighter "just like I am", which I think is sufficient for the inference.

[Ruck]

I think there's room for Horace to not be a homophobe, but still have the kind of hetero-normative, gendered views that say "men like physical activity and girls, and if a man doesn't like one, he must not like the other." I think he tried to be a good father, but only knows how to raise a person similar to himself.

This is probably closest to right. I don't read Horace as an active homophobe, more like someone who's just from an older generation and more traditional with his views of how people are supposed to be in that regard. I don't think he would have rejected Eugene for being gay.

(My read on the Greenhilt relationships, though, tends to be that Eugene is the problem. They may have all invariably clashed, but Eugene is the only one who is constantly seen or referred to as berating the others and convinced of his own superiority.)

I think that's underselling the complexity of Tarquin's motivations. Yes, his ego played a part, but he also honestly believed that he was doing right by Elan and providing him the best situation to be a hero that he could. His ego did cause a fundamental misunderstanding/rejection of the reality of the situation they were in, but drawing a straight line between his ego and his assault on his children doesn't capture the situation especially well.

I actually think it does capture the situation especially well. Tarquin had crafted his narrative for himself as a grand villain who lives like a king well before he came to the conclusion that Elan would be the hero who defeats him. Indeed, the only thing I think doesn't quite fit into the motivation is the killing of Nale, which I think was motivated as much by revenge as anything else. Revenge, at least, is more universal than "trying to force everyone to fit the narrative roles I have in mind for them."

[ti'esar]

This is probably closest to right. I don't read Horace as an active homophobe, more like someone who's just from an older generation and more traditional with his views of how people are supposed to be in that regard. I don't think he would have rejected Eugene for being gay.

(My read on the Greenhilt relationships, though, tends to be that Eugene is the problem. They may have all invariably clashed, but Eugene is the only one who is constantly seen or referred to as berating the others and convinced of his own superiority.)

FWIW, this was more or less what I was originally getting at as well. I doubt very much Horace was a homophobe, but I think a comment like that betrays a somewhat two-dimensional, stereotyped view of his son that implies it wasn't all just Eugene being a jerk (though again, I certainly think he is).

[JennTora]

So the difference is the amount of shock? In the first case he merely thought it "weird", in the second he was "really shocked"?

No. I'm not really sure now where the miscommunication is happening, but no that's not it either. I'm gonna try another way of explaining this but it may suck too because I'm terrible at explaining things.

So we basically have three hypothetical horaces that could lead to the comment we're arguing about. Hypothetical Horace #1 who said "hmm, i have a feeling my son is going to wind up homosexual," and when his son turned out to like girls and said, "well guess i was wrong." The first statement is intended to be coming from that type of father.

But if hypothetical Horace #2 had a son like Eugene and was like "my son likes reading books instead of playing with balls and sticks. What a panty waisted girly boy he is turning out to be. He's probably gonna end up gay." Hypothetical Horace #2 is not quite homophobic in general, but was expecting and hoping for his son to fit traditional definitions of manliness.

Hypothetical Horace #3 is truly a homophobe. He stomps and grumps at Eugene every day, demanding to know why he's not interested in manly man stuff. He declares reading books and basically anything other than stomping and bashing things to be feminine.

#3 probably isn't that likely. Hypothetical Horace #2 seems the most plausible and believable. He has flaws, but isn't a terrible person. He's a parent whose son didn't turn out the way he expected or wanted and didn't quite know how to respond because of it.

So the difference isn't so much in the words, but in exactly how much frustration are in them, I guess...

[Elanasaurus]

What about Daigo? He seems to be a good father.

[The MunchKING]

What about Daigo? He seems to be a good father.

do you get to be called a Father before your kid's actually born? :D

[Elanasaurus]

do you get to be called a Father before your kid's actually born? :D

He thinks so. He refers to himself as "Daddy" when *talking to* the baby in #563.

[Lissou]

Geoff Starshine was only trying to do the best for his kid. Sure he worked against Ian but it was just to keep Jimmy safe.

Do we know that his last name is "Starshine"? I thought he was "Uncle Geoff" in the "close adult friend of my parents" kind of way (like with Durkon's uncles and aunts).

Speaking of which, I don't think we know anything bad about Durkon's father, do we?