OOTS #1084 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Greg. I don't get it. Why is that funny?

It's not meant to be funny. To me, it's major advantages are: being one of the canon suggestions, not a terrible pun, not liable to be confused with Durkon, and being easy to remember & type.

GW

[Avianmosquito]

She had silver arrows to shoot at Sabine/stab Sabine with on a couple occasions. As Avianmosquito already noted, I see.

I will be quite surprised if Haley doesn't have some way to penetrate (giggity) Greg's DR. If V is sufficiently dibilitated and Roy can't get into melee, Haley's the only one with reliable damage output.

[Peelee]

To me, it's major advantages are: not a terrible pun

Oh, come now. Some of the puns were pretty clever.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, come now. Some of the puns were pretty clever.

I did not mean to imply that every other possible name for the vampire is a terrible pun. Just that I discarded some of those possibilities for being terrible puns (even if they were otherwise, say, easy to remember & type).

GW

[Peelee]

I did not mean to imply that every other possible name for the vampire is a terrible pun. Just that I discarded some of those possibilities for being terrible puns (even if they were otherwise, say, easy to remember & type).

GW

Makes sense. Sorry!

[Shining Wrath]

A very useful spell for Elan (yes, Elan) to have prepared is the 5th level spell Greater Dispel Magic. D20 + Elan's caster level (12? 14?) versus a DC of 11 + spell level. I'd say it gives the bard an ~60% chance of taking out one of Greg's self-buffs.

Greg thinking he's safe because of Anti-life Shield and then Elan dispels it when Roy is standing at the edge - painful lesson.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's quite possible that Thor's clerics are the only clerics powerful enough to pose something of a threat to the vampires' plans, so they get taken out early.

Decapitation strike.

Let's just say if Roy uses his greatsword as a thrown weapon against a certain undead cleric who may or may not be called Greg, Roy's ability to hit and or miss said person maybe known as Greg will be determined by the story's needs, not whether or not if it's based on Strength or Dexterity.

As when red struck true when the goat turned. (Strip 0015)

[JennTora]

It's not meant to be funny. To me, it's major advantages are: being one of the canon suggestions, not a terrible pun, not liable to be confused with Durkon, and being easy to remember & type.

GW

Well it is a little funny in that you really wouldn't expect a dark spirit birthed in the halls of an evil goddess to be named Greg.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well it is a little funny in that you really wouldn't expect a dark spirit birthed in the halls of an evil goddess to be named Greg.

I'm aware of the trope, and I suppose I can see where other people might find it funny - it certainly was funny in the comic were it was introduced, surrounded by other more "thematically appropriate" suggestions (although there the humour derived more from this trope). But I stand by my assertion that I don't use it with the intention of making a joke. I do honestly think it is a practical name for a character that doesn't have one. I tried using Durkon* for a bit, but that's just confusing, for example.

GW

[Kish]

Yes, I call him Greg for exactly the same reasons as Grey Wolf.

Which may make it ironic that I'm about to make a terrible pun--but at least I'm not suggesting it should be any character's official name:

Maybe Hel called him "High Priest" because there was a lot of alcohol in the bloodstream of the dwarf he just drained.

[Jasdoif]

Maybe Hel called him "High Priest" because there was a lot of alcohol in the bloodstream of the dwarf he just drained.

He's the Former Drunken Master Durkon Thundershield's Shell?

[factotum]

A very useful spell for Elan (yes, Elan) to have prepared is the 5th level spell Greater Dispel Magic.

Bards are spontaneous casters, they don't need to *prepare* any spell they use. They do need to *know* the spell in the first place, though, and they have rather limited numbers of spells they can know compared to a Wizard.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's not meant to be funny. To me, it's major advantages are: being one of the canon suggestions, not a terrible pun, not liable to be confused with Durkon, and being easy to remember & type.

GW

Durkula is: one of the canon suggestions, not a pun, no more confusing with Durkon than Durkon/Dorukan or Thor/Thog, and is much easier for a new forum member to immediately know who you're talking about than a 1-panel gag.

[Kish]

Three of five. It's a terrible pun, and it's only a canon suggestion with Count in front of it (and no one on the forum uses Count with it).

[Gift Jeraff]

Three of five. It's a terrible pun

A portmanteau != a pun. Durkula and Greg are both lame jokes, but Durkula wins as far as concision is concerned.

[mouser9169]

I find it absurd that short swords are considered only piercing weapons, while daggers are piercing/slashing. So let's just agree the rules were badly written and move on.

Short swords are patterned from the Roman gladius. The blade was fastened to the hilt with rivets, making it a piercing weapon.

I'll also 2nd what Grey Wolf said - MANY useless things have been written in splat books, where the authors simply didn't know the rules well enough...

[Avianmosquito]

Short swords are patterned from the Roman gladius. The blade was fastened to the hilt with rivets, making it a piercing weapon.

I'll also 2nd what Grey Wolf said - MANY useless things have been written in splat books, where the authors simply didn't know the rules well enough...

A: Care to point out the rivets on the clearly peened sword?

B. The method the blade is attached to the handle with is irrelevant. Look at the messer, its tang is actually riveted to the grip, but it's definitely a primarily slashing weapon. It is also, notably, a short sword.

C. The actual determining factor is the blade geometry and flexibility of the blade. The gladius, originally being bronze (later models out of iron and low steel, also non-elastic metals), was necessarily a stiff blade and that does lean it towards thrusting as it prevents the blade from bending on a thrust but does not impact cutting ability. However, this is not as much of an issue with short blades, so the blade geometry wins. Look at that sword again. Notice the leaf-shape? How it broadens towards the tip? That's an adjustment made to deliver a more powerful CUT with the sword. It's not overly pronounced, and not all gladii have them, this one doesn't for one example, but even so it demonstrates the intent of the weapon. If you were to look at the blade's narrow construction and the actual angle of the blade, it'd be even more clear this blade is designed with cutting in mind. This is a cut and thrust sword, and not in the sense that all swords are cut and thrust either, I mean this blade is designed equally to both cut and thrust with no particular preference for either.

[Legato Endless]

Considering the correction from Hel, I wonder if this is hinting to a decision later where Greg (again) prioritizes taking out Roy even if it endangers his mission objective. The multiple contingency plans he's set up making such an impulse easier to rationalize.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A portmanteau != a pun. Durkula and Greg are both lame jokes, but Durkula wins as far as concision is concerned.

I'm not sure if you truly believe that your definitions of concision and distinctiveness overrides mine, or if you think that they are objective measures. Suffice to say that I disagree with both your assertion that Durkula is distinct from Durkon and that it is more concise or easier to type than Greg. I gave my reasons for why I chose to use Greg, and those reasons stand.

GW

[are]

Considering the correction from Hel, I wonder if this is hinting to a decision later where Greg (again) prioritizes taking out Roy even if it endangers his mission objective. The multiple contingency plans he's set up making such an impulse easier to rationalize.

Agreed. I said this upthread, and I'll say it again: 5 internet bucks says that his fixation on killing Roy despite Hel's suggestion that it isn't necessary leads to his undoing.

What I'm curious about, though, is whether everyone thinks we'll get Durkon back at the end of this book, or the middle of the next. He's got some character growth to undergo while he decides whether he agrees with Greg's thesis in 1007. That seems like the major dramatic question for him in this book, and the answer will likely decide the outcome in Roy and Greg's next fight.

[hroþila]

Adding to what Avianmosquito said: the gladius being seen as a thrusting weapon is a matter of doctrine, not typology. The doctrine of the Roman army favoured and emphasized the thrust, but the gladius was still a cut & thrust sword and was used as such on the battlefield.

[Gift Jeraff]

What I'm curious about, though, is whether everyone thinks we'll get Durkon back at the end of this book, or the middle of the next.

The former seems way more likely than the latter. Though my personal speculation is that the Hel plot will be self-contained to Book 6 and then in Book 7 the OOTS will have no choice but to work with Durkon in his current state.

[Chei]

Agreed. I said this upthread, and I'll say it again: 5 internet bucks says that his fixation on killing Roy despite Hel's suggestion that it isn't necessary leads to his undoing.

What I'm curious about, though, is whether everyone thinks we'll get Durkon back at the end of this book, or the middle of the next. He's got some character growth to undergo while he decides whether he agrees with Greg's thesis in 1007. That seems like the major dramatic question for him in this book, and the answer will likely decide the outcome in Roy and Greg's next fight.

Indeed. The last time we saw Durkon, he'd had his personal worldview smashed and his beliefs about himself challenged. If this were the Hero's Journey, we'd be at the Death stage, but Durkon was already there. But hey, the Death is followed by Resurrection... I have to say, I'm amused by the confluence of terms.

[Mandor]

I'm aware of the trope, and I suppose I can see where other people might find it funny - it certainly was funny in the comic were it was introduced, surrounded by other more "thematically appropriate" suggestions (although there the humour derived more from this trope). But I stand by my assertion that I don't use it with the intention of making a joke. I do honestly think it is a practical name for a character that doesn't have one. I tried using Durkon* for a bit, but that's just confusing, for example.

GW

Funny would have been if the vampire controlling Durkon's mortal coil was named Sue.
"...I'll tell ya, Unlife's not easy for a vampire named Sue..."

[Chei]

Well, my daddy burnt up when I was wee
And he didn't leave much for Hel and me
Just this old staff and a smoking pile 'o ash

[MReav]

That is true of melee attacks as well. Clearly strength has a component of accuracy to it. Best not to bring "Real world" realities of actual fighting.

Strength improves your melee attacks due to the abstract nature of AC. AC is not your ability to avoid attacks, it's your ability to avoid damage from attacks. You're not just dodging, your using your armour and shield to absorb incoming damage. How this manifests depends on the situation. Against high-dex characters, a high-strength character like Roy uses his immense strength to swing his sword so fast his opponent can't dodge it, or against a platemail and shield wielders he swings his sword so hard the impact smashes the opponent, rattling them and leaving bruises or worse, where normally it would glance off harmlessly.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

No no no, Durkon has come home and brought death and destruction.

I don't think I've felt this sinking feeling of inevitible, unavoidable, other-shoe-dropping-ness from this comic since strip 896.

[mouser9169]

A: Care to point out the rivets on the clearly peened sword?

B. The method the blade is attached to the handle with is irrelevant. Look at the messer, its tang is actually riveted to the grip, but it's definitely a primarily slashing weapon. It is also, notably, a short sword.

C. The actual determining factor is the blade geometry and flexibility of the blade. The gladius, originally being bronze (later models out of iron and low steel, also non-elastic metals), was necessarily a stiff blade and that does lean it towards thrusting as it prevents the blade from bending on a thrust but does not impact cutting ability. However, this is not as much of an issue with short blades, so the blade geometry wins. Look at that sword again. Notice the leaf-shape? How it broadens towards the tip? That's an adjustment made to deliver a more powerful CUT with the sword. It's not overly pronounced, and not all gladii have them, this one doesn't for one example, but even so it demonstrates the intent of the weapon. If you were to look at the blade's narrow construction and the actual angle of the blade, it'd be even more clear this blade is designed with cutting in mind. This is a cut and thrust sword, and not in the sense that all swords are cut and thrust either, I mean this blade is designed equally to both cut and thrust with no particular preference for either.

First, I'll point out that the Roman Empire was around for a LONG time (a VERY long time if you include the eastern half and don't pretend the world stopped calling themselves Roman when a city fell). I'm sure there were swords made with a multitude of techniques over the centuries.

One of the primary motivations for the sword they used was its ease of being mass produced, and that needed cheap materials and workmanship. The common legionaries were not carry around masterwork swords - and no, I don't expect many survived years of use and later neglect to have survived to be common museum pieces. Generally the crap of a civilization gets lost to time (a notable exception is oak furniture - that was peasant stuff, nobles had furniture made of pine and soft woods).

Swords are weird weapons anyway. Spears are almost always a better choice. The Chinese army still issued spears well into the 20th century. Swords are easier to carry and more 'elegant', though, making them a nice statement of stature and wealth.

[danielxcutter]

No no no, Durkon has come home and brought death and destruction.

I don't think I've felt this sinking feeling of inevitible, unavoidable, other-shoe-dropping-ness from this comic since strip 896.

What happened there again?

[Kish]

swing his sword so fast his opponent can't dodge it

It's interesting that part of your justification for Strength affecting hit rolls is giving how fast Roy can move to Strength rather than Dexterity.

(If it wasn't clear, I think any efforts to justify D&D combat rules at the level of "Dexterity has nothing to do with your ability to hit with a melee weapon" is misguided and doomed.)