OOTS #1084 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

I think it might not even be him that's providing the resources in this case. I think this comes down to the Domain Agreement--e.g. a cleric of Thor who uses Flame Strike is actually tapping into Loki's power, since he is the god of fire.

Thor is "absolute master of storms" in the north - but that doesn't mean other gods' clerics can't do things with storms - using their own deities's power.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html

When Hel grants Durkula the Control Weather spell, based on the presumption that Thor would be a problem later - it makes sense that the spell is granted from her own power.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And I'm going to argue that Roy does use his greatsword effectively in melee, so long as he doesn't drop it.

Roy's skill at holding on, thankfully, doesn't come into play. "Melee" and "Ranged" are descriptors in the weapons table. All swords are melee. Therefore, they use strength bonus to hit when thrown.

All ranged attacks use Dex for the to-hit roll, but not all ranged weapons have Str for the damage roll (like crossbows or splash weapons, which do flat damage). Dex for to-hit is assumed, but Str for damage must be specified.

[citation needed]. AFAICT, that's for ranged weapons. A sword is a melee weapon, which has a to-hit equation that uses strength modifier, as I posted above and can be verified here.

Yeah, at the start I wasn't convinced I was in the right and Jasdoif was in the wrong, but I am convinced now: melee weapons, when thrown, DO use strength to hit (with a malus of -4, unless they are also thrown weapons). Whether they also get strength bonus to damage depends on a number of circumstances, which is why they specify in the entries. For swords, they do get the strength bonus to damage.

Grey Wolf

[Avianmosquito]

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:


The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

Because it's a ranged attack, and there's a feat, Brutal Throw from Complete Adventurer, that allows strength to be used for attack on throws. If strength was already used, that official sourcebook wouldn't have a need for such a thing.

On a side note, what IS his attack with that throw, then? If he has brutal throw, ~+25, but if he doesn't... Do we have any indication of his dexterity? I assumed ~10 earlier, but it might be 12 or 14 pretty easily and fit in the max dex on his armour. So, probably ~+15, maybe +16 or +17? Does the ability remove the -4? Then ~+29 with brutal throw and +19-21 without? I don't know, his attack doesn't seem too bad with that. Though there is the obvious issue of him only getting one attack per round instead of three and losing ~5 damage (since a thrown weapon doesn't get the 1.5x strength bonus).

It's something, and at least he'll do better than Haley's 1d8+5 and 1d6 cold since both of those will be 0 damage against Durkula's DR 10/Silver and ER 10 (Cold, Electric). Haley's going to be completely worthless in this next encounter, highest level party member or no. Then again, maybe she can get silver arrows, not hard to believe, and then she can deal... 1d8+5, 3-4 times each round, 1-2 of which will miss. Rogues without sneak attacks SUCK.

[hamishspence]

A sword is a melee weapon - but so is a dagger - and it's a throwing weapon too, with a range increment. The impression I get is that a dagger uses Str for To Hit in melee, and Dex for to hit when thrown, unless a character has the Brutal Throw feat.

It's something, and at least he'll do better than Haley's 1d8+5 and 1d6 cold since both of those will be 0 damage against Durkula's DR 10/Silver and ER 10 (Cold, Electric). Haley's going to be completely worthless in this next encounter, highest level party member or no. Then again, maybe she can get silver arrows, not hard to believe, and then she can deal... 1d8+5, 3-4 times each round, 1-2 of which will miss. Rogues without sneak attacks SUCK.

Right-Eye had a dagger that allowed the Sneak Attacking of undead, in Start of Darkness. Maybe Haley can get the bow equivalent?

[Jasdoif]

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

Something that'd have been a lot clearer if they'd talked about melee and ranged attacks there instead of melee and ranged weapons, instead of trying to kind of hint at it. As you already quoted the range penalty doesn't enter into the melee roll; so would it even make sense to use the melee roll for ranged attacks? Further, listing a range increment for melee weapons that can also be thrown would only matter insofar as maximum range if one were to go the "use the melee roll for the ranged attack" route.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because it's a ranged attack, and there's a feat, Brutal Throw from Complete Adventurer, that allows strength to be used for attack on throws. If strength was already used, that official sourcebook wouldn't have a need for such a thing.

This logic doesn't pass the smell test. Plenty of useless things have been printed because the writers weren't all that good at the rules.

GW

[Chei]

Yeah, at the start I wasn't convinced I was in the right and Jasdoif was in the wrong, but I am convinced now: melee weapons, when thrown, DO use strength to hit (with a malus of -4, unless they are also thrown weapons). Whether they also get strength bonus to damage depends on a number of circumstances, which is why they specify in the entries. For swords, they do get the strength bonus to damage.

Grey Wolf

I'm still pretty sure I'm right. Let me use an actual thrown weapon as an example: daggers.

When you use a dagger in a melee attack, you use your Strength modifier for the to-hit bonus, unless you take Weapon Finesse. When you throw a dagger to make a ranged attack, you substitute your Dexterity for Strength. The dagger is a melee weapon. The same is true for clubs, shortspears, and several other weapons that can do both.

Letting melee weapons that aren't designed to be thrown use Strength for the to-hit sounds absurd to me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Letting melee weapons that aren't designed to be thrown use Strength for the to-hit sounds absurd to me.

Again, [citation needed]. I find absurd that throwing a sword requires dexterity.

ETA:

the range penalty doesn't enter into the melee roll; so would it even make sense to use the melee roll for ranged attacks? Further, listing a range increment for melee weapons that can also be thrown would only matter insofar as maximum range if one were to go the "use the melee roll for the ranged attack" route.

So in the contradiction, you have decided that "they meant" for thrown melee weapons to use the ranged weapons equation. While I have decided they forgot to put "+range penalty (if any)" on the melee weapon entry. Not sure why your interpretation is more valid than mine.

GW

[Chei]

Again, [citation needed]. I find absurd that throwing a sword requires dexterity.

GW

I find it absurd that short swords are considered only piercing weapons, while daggers are piercing/slashing. So let's just agree the rules were badly written and move on.

[MReav]

Again, [citation needed]. I find absurd that throwing a sword requires dexterity.

GW

It requires dexterity to accurately hit the opponent. Strength is what determines how much damage it does when it hits.

[Avianmosquito]

This logic doesn't pass the smell test. Plenty of useless things have been printed because the writers weren't all that good at the rules.

GW

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

You're wrong. Get over it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It requires dexterity to accurately hit the opponent. Strength is what determines how much damage it does when it hits.

That is true of melee attacks as well. Clearly strength has a component of accuracy to it. Best not to bring "Real world" realities of actual fighting.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

You're wrong. Get over it.

The dex entry reads:
"Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons." (emphasis mine)
Swords are not in that list.

Not sure why you think that helps your argument. Also, no need to be rude.

GW

[hamishspence]

You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:

Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons.

A throwing axe is specifically a Light melee weapon, but with a range increment:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

It's reasonable to apply the same principle to all thrown weapons.

Any melee weapon, when thrown, has become a ranged weapon for that throw.

[Avianmosquito]

Not sure why you think that helps your argument. Also, no need to be rude.

GW

You don't see how the rules explicitly saying thrown weapons use dexterity supports the argument that thrown weapons use dexterity in the very first bullet point on the things dexterity actually does? And you think I'M being rude?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's reasonable to apply the same principle to all thrown weapons. Any melee weapon, when thrown, has become a ranged weapon for that throw.

Sure, but it is also reasonable to add the range increment penalties to the melee equation. What I get from all this is that this is not as clear cut as it was suggested it was. Rich clearly has plenty of maneuverer space within the rules to determine that Roy can be as accurate when throwing his sword (even pre-magical) as he is when holding it. The argument that he must use his dex when throwing doesn't hold weight, even if Rich was sticking to the SRD rules (never mind that he might simply override them for the story).

Grey Wolf

[Avianmosquito]

A throwing axe is specifically a Light melee weapon, but with a range increment:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

It's reasonable to apply the same principle to all thrown weapons.

Any melee weapon, when thrown, has become a ranged weapon for that throw.

I think we're wasting our time. He's ignoring it explicitly saying throwing weapons use dexterity because it didn't specifically mention swords. That's like saying you didn't cheat because the prenup didn't explicitly mention anal, or that they didn't rob somebody because they were already dead when they took the wallet, there's no point arguing with somebody willing to play semantics like that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Give up. He's ignoring it explicitly saying throwing weapons use dexterity because it didn't specifically mention swords.

No, the rules specifically mention ranged weapons. The rules specifically mention melee weapons use strength. Nowhere you have shown that "melee weapons are considered ranged when thrown". Is it reasonable, given they listed a melee thrown weapon in the list? Sure. But it is not the only reasonable interpretation.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

It has worked that way for both Malack (by word of Rich) and Durkon (as seen in the comic), so it is pretty much canon.

GW

When vampirized? No argument; I even quoted it. But are they being vampirized or merely killed with a blood drain? The normal process takes three days. Seems even worse to be drained by a vampire and then be stuck there without being turned into one.

[JumboWheat01]

Let's just say if Roy uses his greatsword as a thrown weapon against a certain undead cleric who may or may not be called Greg, Roy's ability to hit and or miss said person maybe known as Greg will be determined by the story's needs, not whether or not if it's based on Strength or Dexterity.

[Chei]

The dex entry reads:
"Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons." (emphasis mine)
Swords are not in that list.

Not sure why you think that helps your argument. Also, no need to be rude.

GW

The Strength entry reads: "Melee attack rolls." No ambiguity there. A thrown melee weapon is not a melee attack roll. It has a ranged increment of 10 feet. Ranged increments only apply to ranged weapons. Ergo, a thrown melee weapon is a ranged weapon.

Let's try looking at things from the other side for a moment. When you use a javelin or other ranged weapon not designed for melee combat as an improvised melee weapon, do you think you use Dexterity on the to-hit roll?

[ackmondual]

I take it Durkula and team had the element of surprise? I didn't think they'd be able to take on a group of dwarf fighters and clerics since they seem fit to withstand them in general.

[are]

The rules specifically mention melee weapons use strength. Nowhere you have shown that "melee weapons are considered ranged when thrown".

Grey Wolf

A throwing axe uses strength when you make a melee attack with it. It uses dex when you make a ranged attack. Swords don't have a range increment listed, but the SRD has something to say about it:

Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Source

Looking at this, it doesn't specifically say that a thrown greatsword uses dex on its attack roll, but since the rules for such usage are described in the section for thrown weapons, the natural interpretation is that a thrown greatsword acts like it has the "thrown" property, as handaxes and daggers do, and therefore uses dex on its attack roll.

[Skull the Troll]

A shame Elan finally retracted his demand for Banjo to be included in the northern pantheon. Especially since Odin was willing to say "yes" to that.

"Is it still possible to include a new god/demigod to the moot" is an interesting question. And "What would Banjo's vote be" is another one.

OK, I know this chapter's dramatic conflict won't get resolved in such a silly way. But still

Naw- if Banjo got admitted so would Giggles and it would be a wash. :)

[hamishspence]

When vampirized? No argument; I even quoted it. But are they being vampirized or merely killed with a blood drain? The normal process takes three days. Seems even worse to be drained by a vampire and then be stuck there without being turned into one.

1d4 days. And it occurs "as standard" when blood drain is complete:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD.

However - according to Libris Mortis, it is possible (as a variant rule) for a undead that would normally create spawn, to prevent the spawning process - requires a DC15 Intelligence check).

[Peelee]

I wholeheartedly agree. They could have just written down what they meant.

[Avianmosquito]

No, the rules specifically mention ranged weapons. The rules specifically mention melee weapons use strength. Nowhere you have shown that "melee weapons are considered ranged when thrown". Is it reasonable, given they listed a melee thrown weapon in the list? Sure. But it is not the only reasonable interpretation.

Grey Wolf

When you throw a melee weapon, it is ranged. That is a ranged attack. That is why the basics mention strength ONLY for damage on thrown weapons, and dexterity explicitly mentions a thrown weapon on its example of ranged weapons it gives attack bonuses to. This intent is confirmed by the OFFICIAL Wizards of the Coast sourcebook, Complete Adventurer, made by the same people that made 3.5e in the first place, saying thrown weapons use dexterity in the Brutal Throw feat that allows you to use strength instead. You're wrong, get over it.

[Chei]

Naw- if Banjo got admitted so would Giggles and it would be a wash. :)

Or there would be an extra "No" vote. Giggles is a homie.

[Kish]

When vampirized? No argument; I even quoted it. But are they being vampirized or merely killed with a blood drain? The normal process takes three days. Seems even worse to be drained by a vampire and then be stuck there without being turned into one.

If I'm understanding the question correctly: Since Greg no longer has the staff, most likely the new victims will rise in three days, and thus they are "not vampirized" insofar as they aren't getting up yet. Victims of a vampire's blood drain rise as either vampires or vampire spawn, nonoptionally; Greg even mentioned to Nale that he was breaking Zz'dtri's neck rather than draining his blood because he didn't want him rising as a vampire.

I take it Greg and team had the element of surprise? I didn't think they'd be able to take on a group of dwarf fighters and clerics since they seem fit to withstand them in general.

Greg is at least level 16 before his vampire bonuses. Very little of the world he lives in is "fit to withstand [him]."

To put it another way: Did the Crystal-golem need the element of surprise against the gnomes, or was everything they could do against her like throwing water balloons at a charging tyrannosaur?

[hamishspence]

Let's just say if Roy uses his greatsword as a thrown weapon against a certain undead cleric who may or may not be called Greg, Roy's ability to hit and or miss said person maybe known as Greg will be determined by the story's needs, not whether or not if it's based on Strength or Dexterity.

A good example of highly improbable ranged weapon hits - that fitted the story -

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html

3 Ranged Sunder hits in succession. On ropes less than an inch wide (Fine size targets?).

[Chei]

Greg is at least level 16 before his vampire bonuses. Very little of the world he lives in is "fit to withstand [him]."

The folks in the Class and Levels thread worked out that *Durkon is level 16? Would you kindly sum up their basis for that? I kind of don't want to accept that until I see him roll out an 8th-level spell, but I may have missed some other indication of his level.