Starting a D&D game at mid-level

[thorr-kan]

Things we have used when magic weapons are unavailable...

Torches.
Wrestling/Punching.
Shield bashes with a +1 shield.
Someone tried to get away with repeated headbutts with a +1 helmet.

Lasso.

When your 1st-level party gets jumped by a gargoyle, you'll be glad the Commoner took his one WP in lasso and deigned to take the Rope Use NWP. I lassoed the gargoyle, tied off the other end, and made the Rope Use check.

DM says, "You've successfully tied off the lasso. The gargoyle has a limited range of flight. What do you do?"

I grin and crack my knuckes. "RUN." Entire party bolts.

DM says, "Whuh?"

No magic items. We lived to fight another day and found some goblins to go beat up.

[thorr-kan]

So, fun story time:

I was playing a bard in a high level game. My spells included Find Familiar, Haste, and Polymorph Other. Given some free reign with acquiring magic items, I got a few Ioun stones and a luck stone.

How old do you want your Gold Dragon familiar to be?

Nice.

I always liked the immortal bard route. I never got to actually try it, but I think it works. Spells needed are Magic Jar and Stone to Flesh.

1. Carve a really nice human statue.
2. Cast Stone to Flesh on the statue.
3. Cast Magic Jar on yourself.
4. Possess the statue.
5. PROFIT!

[Lord Torath]

So, fun story time:

I was playing a bard in a high level game. My spells included Find Familiar, Haste, and Polymorph Other. Given some free reign with acquiring magic items, I got a few Ioun stones and a luck stone.

Polymorph Other has a chance that the target will become the creature polymorphed into. Not just look like it, but become one in all ways. I took my familiar and used Polymorph Other to turn the little moggie into... a Gold Dragon. Give it enough time, and the familiar BECOMES a gold dragon (especially since its effective level is my level, making it a smaller jump). Then I load it up with Ioun stones that increase constitution, and give it my luck stone, making it so the new gold dragon couldn't fail a system shock roll. And then I spent a lot of time (before the game) casting Haste on it.

How old do you want your Gold Dragon familiar to be?

Very nice! Still vulnerable to the lowly Dispel Magic, though. But at least your familiar will have magic resistance and a luck stone to resist the attempt. And if it fails, you can just polymorph it back. Assuming it doesn't die of old age when returned to its normal form...

I'll have to remember this one.

[LibraryOgre]

Very nice! Still vulnerable to the lowly Dispel Magic, though. But at least your familiar will have magic resistance and a luck stone to resist the attempt. And if it fails, you can just polymorph it back. Assuming it doesn't die of old age when returned to its normal form...

I'll have to remember this one.

It isn't, is the best part. Once they become the creature, the only thing that undoes it is a wish (or, one assumes, another polymorph and a change of THAT mind).

[Lord Torath]

So what sensory bonus does a gold dragon familiar give? I've got an elven fighter mage with a owl (night vision equals human daylight vision, superior hearing) and a longbow (I own the underdark!), and a human wild mage with a bat (auto detect invisibility via sonar out to 50 yards - also sees through most illusions).

[LibraryOgre]

So what sensory bonus does a gold dragon familiar give? I've got an elven fighter mage with a owl (night vision equals human daylight vision, superior hearing) and a longbow (I own the underdark!), and a human wild mage with a bat (auto detect invisibility via sonar out to 50 yards - also sees through most illusions).

The main benefit, of course, is "My buddy is a gold dragon." ;-)

[Thrudd]

Since when can you have a gold dragon as a familiar? Are you Bahamut? Do you mean a pseudo-dragon? I think it's more likely you'd be the familiar of the gold dragon.

[LibraryOgre]

Since when can you have a gold dragon as a familiar? Are you Bahamut? Do you mean a pseudo-dragon? I think it's more likely you'd be the familiar of the gold dragon.

You missed the "Start with a familiar that you then polymorph" part?

[hamlet]

Maybe I'm just a jerk DM, but really, there's no way I'd allow that to happen exactly as described. I know, according to the rules it works, but still, it rubs me the wrong way.

However, I would not disallow it if permitted to mess with it a bit. Say, a huge gold dragon with the personality of a house cat . . . That's some scratching post.

[Grumm]

More questions:
What are the favored methods of stat generation? 2e tends to be lower-power than later editions, I understand, but 3d6 in order for all stats still seems a trifle harsh. Or do people just do it by the book?

I do 3d6 in order, but you may reroll your character if your two highest stats do not add up to 30 or more. It's a nice way to make sure each PC has both some high stats and some low stats (i.e. strengths and weaknesses).

If I have a first-time player, though, I let them reroll their character as much as they want until they are happy (I usually sit them in front of the AD&D rules CD because the dice roller program is quicker than rolling actual dice).

[LibraryOgre]

I do 3d6 in order, but you may reroll your character if your two highest stats do not add up to 30 or more.

I have not seen that particular iteration before. I like it.

[hamlet]

I do 3d6 in order, but you may reroll your character if your two highest stats do not add up to 30 or more. It's a nice way to make sure each PC has both some high stats and some low stats (i.e. strengths and weaknesses).

Interesting. It would lead to a character that was good at one thing at least thus avoiding the "commoner syndrome" so many folks feel the first time they play since AD&D tends to have, overall, lower numbers I think.

I like it and might filch it.

Though I will say, now and then, I get the urge to really go straight back to 3d6 down the line, take what you get and own it. It can lead to some really interesting things, like a cleric of Tyr with a 5 CON that lasted through 5 levels on the front lines of battle. Fellow was paranoid about getting the best armor he could and carried around a pavise just because.

[MeeposFire]

Interesting. It would lead to a character that was good at one thing at least thus avoiding the "commoner syndrome" so many folks feel the first time they play since AD&D tends to have, overall, lower numbers I think.

I like it and might filch it.

Though I will say, now and then, I get the urge to really go straight back to 3d6 down the line, take what you get and own it. It can lead to some really interesting things, like a cleric of Tyr with a 5 CON that lasted through 5 levels on the front lines of battle. Fellow was paranoid about getting the best armor he could and carried around a pavise just because.

I have enjoyed doing that though I will say this really only works in pre-3e D&D very well especially AD&D since most ability scores do not significantly affect you in combat. It takes some very high or low ability score rolls to even make any difference in many cases and some ability scores do very little for many classes. Let us use the fighter for example.

Str- Honestly unless you get an 18 it really does not matter much. Even at 17 a +1 to hit and damage is just not that great so really having an average score here is no big deal (need a 9 of course just to be the fighter though).

dex- needs a 15 to start seeing a difference in most cases and higher is needed to see major differences.

Con-can make a big difference as I recall if you do die though most rolls will not change most of your living characteristics most of the time. Needs a 15 to start making really noticeable differences in a living character.

Int- surprisingly this has some variance. If you do not play with lots of proficiencies and/or you do not allow the bonus languages apply to getting those proficiencies then this score almost does not matter outside of roleplay, however if you do play with those attributes then int is a GREAT stat for a fighter and can be among the most beneficial to have at least at average or higher levels. Even with an average roll it can make a big difference for you.

Wisdom- NOt much here for a fighter. So long as it is close to average you will not get any big affects outside of roleplay of course.

Cha- Once again no big affects outside of roleplay unless you use followers and the like heavily and even then average is fine.


In AD&D having close to average ability scores on many classes are not a big deal and if it was not for the restrictions on high level spells then having the highest ability scores would not be really needed at all (granted you would still want them of course but you would not NEED them as much).

[hamlet]

That's the thing, attribute dependence is just not really a thing in pre-3e D&D. Even BECMI didn't suffer from it too much.

Sure, it was nice to, now and then, have a high attribute and make you a little better at something, but in the end, it didn't do a lot to improve your effectiveness or survivability. That all depended on you, the player, rather than your character. That, I think, is a serious disconnect between the editions over the years.

[Thrudd]

That's the thing, attribute dependence is just not really a thing in pre-3e D&D. Even BECMI didn't suffer from it too much.

Sure, it was nice to, now and then, have a high attribute and make you a little better at something, but in the end, it didn't do a lot to improve your effectiveness or survivability. That all depended on you, the player, rather than your character. That, I think, is a serious disconnect between the editions over the years.

Well, there was attribute dependence in a more literal sense - you had minimum required attributes to qualify for the different classes. There was also an XP bonus for having a high enough score in the class' main attribute or attributes. The basic four only required a 9 in one attribute, but you needed a 15 or more to get +10% XP award. Rangers required two 13's and two 14's. A paladin needed a 17, a 13, a 12 and two 9's. Druids needed a 15 and a 12, etc.

There were far fewer bonuses applied for scores, characters often had no extra attack or damage or saving throw bonuses from abilities - in actual play they were less relevant overall. They were primarily relevant for determining what your character is.

There were some exceptions, though - intelligence made a huge difference for a magic user - you needed as high as possible because it would restrict how many spells per level you could have in your book and dictated the chance that you could understand any given spell -yes, that means a MU did not automatically get to add any spell they wanted/found to their spell book, even the free one that you get at each level - you had to roll to see if you could understand it first. If you couldn't understand it, well then you will never know that spell unless something somehow increases your intelligence which would let you re-check (which will be a very rare occurrence). High wisdom was also more important for clerics, beyond just meeting the minimum - you got bonus spells per day with higher wisdom, which is a huge boost - and mediocre wisdom gave you a chance for your spells to fail instead. That's right - any time you cast a spell there would be a roll with a small chance that it would just not work - your god says "nope".

[thorr-kan]

High wisdom was also more important for clerics, beyond just meeting the minimum - you got bonus spells per day with higher wisdom, which is a huge boost - and mediocre wisdom gave you a chance for your spells to fail instead. That's right - any time you cast a spell there would be a roll with a small chance that it would just not work - your god says "nope".

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Not that big a deal, but it has come up a few times in our Al-Qadim campaign. It adds quite a bit of tension when the priests *really* need to get a spell off.

[VoxRationis]

When a monster has multiple treasure types listed (like Treasure: A, B, C), is it A+B+C or 'pick one from A, B, and C'?

[Lord Torath]

When a monster has multiple treasure types listed (like Treasure: A, B, C), is it A+B+C or 'pick one from A, B, and C'?

A+B+C. Some monsters even have Ax3, Bx2, Qx10. Multiply the amount indicated in the treasure type by 3, 2, or 10 (or whatever the multiplier is).

[Grumm]

Interesting. It would lead to a character that was good at one thing at least thus avoiding the "commoner syndrome" so many folks feel the first time they play since AD&D tends to have, overall, lower numbers I think.

I like it and might filch it.

Though I will say, now and then, I get the urge to really go straight back to 3d6 down the line, take what you get and own it. It can lead to some really interesting things, like a cleric of Tyr with a 5 CON that lasted through 5 levels on the front lines of battle. Fellow was paranoid about getting the best armor he could and carried around a pavise just because.

Please do, that is exactly how it is meant to work and it does it quite well (i.e. being good at one thing and thus having a niche for your character in the party). I really like characters to have "5's" and "8's" and "11's" in their stat line... makes them seem more mortal.

I use 3D6 straight down when I play OD&D (well, Blueholme, which is a retroclone of Holmes Basic which is itself a revision of OD&D).

[VoxRationis]

How does one decide how much treasure to allocate outside of encounters? I see occasional references in the book to how even lair treasures aren't what you're supposed to stock dungeon rooms with, but I don't see tables or even vague guidelines for what a dungeon should include on average.

[LibraryOgre]

How does one decide how much treasure to allocate outside of encounters? I see occasional references in the book to how even lair treasures aren't what you're supposed to stock dungeon rooms with, but I don't see tables or even vague guidelines for what a dungeon should include on average.

Generally, I go with the monsters in the dungeon, and spread their stuff around. So, if a monster SOMEWHERE is supposed to give a +3 sword, I put the sword somewhere in the dungeon. Often, where the monster has access to it, or nearby, but I might stick the occasional odd item somewhere else.

Mostly, I try to keep what's out there to the available risk. If I set a trap in the dungeon, I also like to make sure it has some appropriate treasure, too.