Giant in the Courthouse

[Jormengand]

We both know that you understand. Pretending otherwise just makes you look bad.

I understand you, I just do not agree with you. I didn't pretend otherwise: putting an (ex) tag on something doesn't mean that it's mundane in any real sense of the word.

Since we're coming up with all these new laws, here's one: A game term's definition may not have anything to do with its meaning as a real word, and trying to equate the two isn't helpful. More specifically, if you try to claim that teleportation is nonmagical just because a game rule says it is, no-one will believe you.

[Cosi]

More specifically, if you try to claim that teleportation is nonmagical just because a game rule says it is, no-one will believe you.

Wait transporters are magic now? Is Star Trek fantasy? Are the people who study quantum teleportation Wizards?

[Tainted_Scholar]

More specifically, if you try to claim that teleportation is nonmagical just because a game rule says it is, no-one will believe you.

If I saw someone teleport in real life I wouldn't assume it was magic. I would assume it was technology like in Star Trek.

EDIT: Actually, you'd have a harder time convincing me is was magic.

[Jormengand]

Wait transporters are magic now? Is Star Trek fantasy? Are the people who study quantum teleportation Wizards?

I didn't think I would need to clarify "Macrocosmic teleportation without any specialist equipment, for example of the sort which appears in the Tome of Battle", but apparently I do.

[Coidzor]

I understand you, I just do not agree with you. I didn't pretend otherwise: putting an (ex) tag on something doesn't mean that it's mundane in any real sense of the word.

Then say what you mean in the first place, Jormengand, if you had just been direct instead of trying to be cute or clever or whatever you thought you were doing we would have been spared several unnecessary posts.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I didn't think I would need to clarify "Macrocosmic teleportation without any specialist equipment, for example of the sort which appears in the Tome of Battle", but apparently I do.

Considering that nothing in your post had to do with ToB, I sure didn't make the connection between teleporting and Martial Adepts.

[Jormengand]

Then say what you mean in the first place, Jormengand, if you had just been direct instead of trying to be cute or clever or whatever you thought you were doing we would have been spared several unnecessary posts.

I... don't understand how saying "And that's not the point, really: if in my game hippos have eight legs and fly, that doesn't mean that's what a hippo actually is, only that the game has a stipulated definition of "Hippo" that deviates from the real one." was in any way indirect: it's fairly obvious what the point is: a game isn't just allowed to redefine words and expect me to believe that the thing it's referring to is the thing that that word actually means in real life. I'm sorry, but I don't know how I can be plainer than that.

Considering that nothing in your post had to do with ToB, I sure didn't make the connection between teleporting and Martial Adepts.

Stay here long enough and you'll realise that most of the ex-mundane disparity comes from ToB, with "But evasion though!" and the fact that the amount of damage that lava and gravity do is too little being the main core examples.

[Waker]

Jormengand, if you wanna make a law or fallacy, just show me how you want to have it written and I'll add it. Don't forget the name, names have power.
I'm adding the False Balance Fallacy as well.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm adding the False Balance Fallacy as well.

Oh, Thanks.

[Cosi]

I didn't think I would need to clarify "Macrocosmic teleportation without any specialist equipment, for example of the sort which appears in the Tome of Battle", but apparently I do.

Uh, okay, at this point it basically sounds like you decided your position in advance ("Tome of Battle is not mundane!") and are now shifting the goalposts after the fact to make it true. I could probably find some counterexample somewhere, but at that point you'd just say "and also not that specific thing".

Incidentally, plane shift is now apparently less magical than ... whichever maneuver you are complaining about, because it requires specialist equipment (the tuning fork).

[Jormengand]

Jormengand, if you wanna make a law or fallacy, just show me how you want to have it written and I'll add it. Don't forget the name, names have power.

The (Ex) Razor: Ignore any attempt to involve a game's redefinition of a word in a discussion involving the ordinary definion of the word. In particular, if you try to convince someone that macrocosmic teleportation via pure martial skill isn't magical because it has an (Ex) tag, no-one will believe you.

Uh, okay, at this point it basically sounds like you decided your position in advance ("Tome of Battle is not mundane!") and are now shifting the goalposts after the fact to make it true. I could probably find some counterexample somewhere, but at that point you'd just say "and also not that specific thing".

Incidentally, plane shift is now apparently less magical than ... whichever maneuver you are complaining about, because it requires specialist equipment (the tuning fork).

I don't know where you got the idea that because macrocosmic teleportation without equipment is definitely magical, macrocosmic teleportation with equipment is definitely nonmagical. Shadow Jaunt is overtly, obviously magical and there's no real way that can be disputed. Some of the other shadow hand maneuvers and stances (say, assassin's stance) aren't overtly magical because they don't involve telling the laws of physics to go sit in the corner for a bit.

Assuming you don't have futuristic devices (and whether, say, the teletransporter is really teleportation in the sense we're accustomed to is up for debate anyway), teleportation in that manner is clearly magical. Only pedantry like "Well what if the swordsage has an anachronistic device that we're not certain is actually possible to make yet?" even allows you to dodge that temporarily before the hammer of "Well he can do that naked so clearly he doesn't have such a device" hits home.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Quick question, what's the name of the maneuver that let's you teleport?

[Jormengand]

Quick question, what's the name of the maneuver that let's you teleport?

Shadow Jaunt

"A cloud of shadow energy engulfs you, spins into a tiny mote, and disappears. A moment later, this shadowy cloud appears across the battlefield and expels you from it.

As part of this maneuver, you disappear in a cloud of darkness and teleport up to 50 feet away. You must have line of sight and line of effect to your destination. If you attempt to use this maneuver to move into an occupied space, you do not move, and the maneuver is expended but has no effect."

[Tainted_Scholar]

Shadow Jaunt

"A cloud of shadow energy engulfs you, spins into a tiny mote, and disappears. A moment later, this shadowy cloud appears across the battlefield and expels you from it.

As part of this maneuver, you disappear in a cloud of darkness and teleport up to 50 feet away. You must have line of sight and line of effect to your destination. If you attempt to use this maneuver to move into an occupied space, you do not move, and the maneuver is expended but has no effect."

Why does that have to be magic? Can't it just be a superpower like Nightcrawler's power?

ToB classes aren't sword mages, they're superheroes.

[Jormengand]

Why does that have to be magic? Can't it just be a superpower like Nightcrawler's power?

ToB classes aren't sword mages, they're superheroes.

So...

"Why does that have to be magic? Can't it just be magic, but with a different name?"

I'm not talking "Magic" as in "Things which the setting in question explicitly refers to as magic" but "Things which are magical in a more general sense of laws-of-physics-go-bye-bye-now".

[ColorBlindNinja]

So...

"Why does that have to be magic? Can't it just be magic, but with a different name?"

I'm not talking "Magic" as in "Things which the setting in question explicitly refers to as magic" but "Things which are magical in a more general sense of laws-of-physics-go-bye-bye-now".

Wouldn't that make just about everything in 3.5 magical?

[Cosi]

I don't know where you got the idea that because macrocosmic teleportation without equipment is definitely magical, macrocosmic teleportation with equipment is definitely nonmagical.

Doesn't have to be definite, just possible. Your definition clearly allows a totally unmodified plane shift to be presented as not magical. Your whole definition rests on the notion that <some effect> is magic but <some effect + random item> is not magic, which you retreated to after having it explained to you that, no, Star Trek is not in fact a fantasy series.

Shadow Jaunt is overtly, obviously magical and there's no real way that can be disputed.

Yes there is. The rules say it isn't. That's really all there is to it. You don't like what the rules say about the magical-ness of shadow jaunt? Fine. I don't like what the rules say about SLAs and wish. But that doesn't mean the rules are somehow lying when they say it.

Some of the other shadow hand maneuvers and stances (say, assassin's stance) aren't overtly magical because they don't involve telling the laws of physics to go sit in the corner for a bit.

No rule does that. The laws of physics are simply "whatever things are possible". If you can teleport, whether by magic or not, the laws of physics permit that. No rule can allow you to do something physically impossible, because your ability to do it necessarily implies its physical possibility.

[Tainted_Scholar]

So...

"Why does that have to be magic? Can't it just be magic, but with a different name?"

I'm not talking "Magic" as in "Things which the setting in question explicitly refers to as magic" but "Things which are magical in a more general sense of laws-of-physics-go-bye-bye-now".

Fine, but by that logic Superman and every other superhero is magical too.

Additionally, every D&D character is magical at high level since they all break the laws of physics.

And then it just becomes confusing because you're using a different definition than the game.

[Jormengand]

Wouldn't that make just about everything in 3.5 magical?

Not really, no. Most (Ex) things are fine. Most core fighter feats are too - maybe whirlwind attack is kinda in the "Stretches credibility" part, but apart from that...

You don't like what the rules say about the magical-ness of shadow jaunt? Fine. I don't like what the rules say about SLAs and wish. But that doesn't mean the rules are somehow lying when they say it.

I refer you to the hippo analogy. Yes, the eight-legged flying monstrosity in question may be defined, in-game, to be a hippo, but it doesn't meet the real-world criteria for hippo. The real-world criteria for mundane (possible in real world) and magic (not possible in real world) are blindingly obviously the ones to which I'm referring, not least because I've clarified that multiple times. Teleporation without equipment to do so is magical. Teleportation with nothing to your name but a tuning fork is magical. If you deny that I don't know what to say to you.

Fine, but by that logic Superman and every other superhero is magical too.

Yes.

Additionally, every D&D character is magical at high level since they all break the laws of physics.

No.

And then it just becomes confusing because you're using a different definition than the game.

I was very clear on the fact that I wasn't using the game definition. Exceptionally clear. Why anyone keeps bringing up the game definitions at this point I'm unsure.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I don't like the D&D description of elves. Elves should be short, wear green, and build toys. D&D elves aren't anything like elves, so I'm not going to call them elves. Additionally, I will get mad if you insist that they are in fact elves.

[Waker]

Hey you guys, this is a thread about compiling a bunch of easy to use tidbits for gaming forums. Keep talking about non-magical teleportation and I'll turn the hose on ya!

Also added the (Ex) Razor.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No.

Yes.

See, I can do single word responses to.

I was very clear on the fact that I wasn't using the game definition. Exceptionally clear. Why anyone keeps bringing up the game definitions at this point I'm unsure.

Except, magic isn't a real thing. You can't claim something is definitely magical because magic doesn't exist. We have to use the D&D definition for magic since there isn't a real one.

[Jormengand]

I don't like the D&D description of elves. Elves should be short, wear green, and build toys. D&D elves aren't anything like elves, so I'm not going to call them elves. Additionally, I will get mad if you insist that they are in fact elves.

Nice strawman!

More like "I notice your new game doesn't contain any elves. I mean sure, it contains 32-legged dragons which it calls "Elves", but it doesn't actually contain anything that I would recognise as an elf."

Yes.

See, I can do single word responses to.

I mean sure you can. It won't stop you being wrong, but sure you can.

Except, magic isn't a real thing. You can't claim something is definitely magical because magic doesn't exist. We have to use the D&D definition for magic since there isn't a real one.

Yes, there is a real definition for magical. Same as "Nonexistent." We have a pretty good definition for that even though nonexistent things don't exist.

[Cosi]

I refer you to the hippo analogy. Yes, the eight-legged flying monstrosity in question may be defined, in-game, to be a hippo, but it doesn't meet the real-world criteria for hippo. The real-world criteria for mundane (possible in real world) and magic (not possible in real world) are blindingly obviously the ones to which I'm referring, not least because I've clarified that multiple times. Teleporation without equipment to do so is magical. Teleportation with nothing to your name but a tuning fork is magical. If you deny that I don't know what to say to you.

Okay, let's use the real world as our benchmark. Oh, wait, no, that's the Guy At The Gym fallacy. What you seem to want is "what can be done in the real world, but expanded in the unspecified ways that Jormengand thinks are kind of like the real world, but not other ways".

You can't both have "martials can exceed what is physically possible for a human body in the real world" and "martials can't do things that are impossible for human bodies in the real world".

[Jormengand]

Okay, let's use the real world as our benchmark. Oh, wait, no, that's the Guy At The Gym fallacy.

Would you believe that I already addressed this in my second post in the thread?

Because I addressed this in my second post in the thread.

[Tiri]

Hey you guys, this is a thread about compiling a bunch of easy to use tidbits for gaming forums. Keep talking about non-magical teleportation and I'll turn the hose on ya!

Also added the (Ex) Razor.

The (Ex) Razor in the first post needs a 'not' before the 'magical'.

Also, Jormengand is not wrong. He is simply using the definition of magic an observer from inside the game world would most likely use, and since D&D is all about playing characters in that world, that is a definition that has value.

Of course, a swordsage's shadow movement isn't stopped by what we know as an 'Anti-Magic Field', but to someone in D&D, that just means the swordsage knows a kind of magic that bypasses the field, not that the shadow movement isn't magical.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Nice strawman!

More like "I notice your new game doesn't contain any elves. I mean sure, it contains 32-legged dragons which it calls "Elves", but it doesn't actually contain anything that I would recognise as an elf."

It's not a strawman, because elves aren't real, so there is no basis for elves.

You're complaining that ToB is magic despite magic already existing in D&D. You're argument is just confusing, are you going to get angry at Superhero stories for making a distinction between powers and magic? They aren't real, so if the work claims they're different, then they are.

[Jormengand]

It's not a strawman, because elves aren't real, so there is no basis for elves.

You're complaining that ToB is magic despite magic already existing in D&D. You're argument is just confusing, are you going to get angry at Superhero stories for making a distinction between powers and magic? They aren't real, so if the work claims they're different, then they are.

If we accept the definition of magic as "having or apparently having supernatural powers" and of supernatural as "attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature", because words don't lose their meanings just because they don't describe anything in the real world, then we can have a real discussion.

To be clear, I'm not interested in whether the game defines things to be magic. I'm interested in whether they're magic in the standard sense of the word.

[Cosi]

Would you believe that I already addressed this in my second post in the thread?

Because I addressed this in my second post in the thread.

So to be clear, "energy equivalent to a supernova" is a totally mundane ability because supernovas are real, but "teleport 5ft" is always magical?

Uh, sure. Supernovas are definitely mundane in a way that teleportation is not.

[Tiri]

It's not a strawman, because elves aren't real, so there is no basis for elves.

You're complaining that ToB is magic despite magic already existing in D&D. You're argument is just confusing, are you going to get angry at Superhero stories for making a distinction between powers and magic? They aren't real, so if the work claims they're different, then they are.

Well, I don't think he's arguing that all ToB is magic, just, you know, the parts that seem magical, since that is what you would call it if you saw it in real life. Someone looking at it in the game would too.

So to be clear, "energy equivalent to a supernova" is a totally mundane ability because supernovas are real, but "teleport 5ft" is always magical?

Uh, sure. Supernovas are definitely mundane in a way that teleportation is not.

No, what he is saying is that if someone had the ability to create a supernova, that would be magic, because no real person can do that.