Villainous Competition XX​II: I Am The Night!

[Inevitability]

Welcome to Round 22 of the Villainous Competition!

Previous Competitions
Round One: Leader of Armies
Round Two: Nature's Revenger
Round Three: Double Agent
Round Four: Grave Keeper
Round Five: Crime Lord
Round Six: Ultimate Predator
Round Seven: Wicked Witch
Round Eight: Master of the Tundra
Round Nine: The Power of Villainous Thinking
Round Ten: Henchman Are Villains Too
Round Eleven: The Higher They Rise The Harder They Fall
Round Twelve: Power Comes at a Price
Round Thirteen: The Gadgeteer - You Are Not Batman
Round Fourteen: The Thing That Should Not Be
Round Fifteen: The Horsemen Are Drawing Nearer
Round Sixteen: Burn Baby Burn
Round Seventeen: It's Alive!
Round Eighteen: This is Heresy
Round Nineteen: He Slimed Me!
Round Twenty: Elder Evil
Round Twenty-One: Yarr!

We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

Contestants:
You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Secret Laboratory:
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.
Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

Deadlines:
Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT Tuesday August 15th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 GMT Tuesday August 29th* to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. *Judging deadline is subject to extension as/if required.

Judging:
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
Originality - Is it unexpected?
Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

Presentation:
Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Note:
There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

Spoiler

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CR	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
2	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
3	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
4	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
5	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
6	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
7	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
8	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
9	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
10	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
11	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
12	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
13	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
14	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
15	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
16	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
17	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
18	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
19	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
20	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Spoiler

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[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]CR[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class[/B][/th]
[th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
[th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
[th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

You can use the table below for Spells.

Spoiler

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Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3rd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
7th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
8th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
9th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
10th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
11th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
13th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
15th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
16th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
17th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
18th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
19th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
20th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Code Immediately Below,

Spoiler

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[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
[th][B]1st[/B][/th]
[th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
[th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
[th][B]4th[/B][/th]
[th][B]5th[/B][/th]
[th][B]6th[/B][/th]
[th][B]7th[/B][/th]
[th][B]8th[/B][/th]
[th][B]9th[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Speculation:
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:

I Am The Night!
The Ones Who See

Limitations

• Must be "ninja" themed. It'll be up to individual judges to decide how well they think you stuck to the theme.
• As always, must be Evil in alignment

We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
So, start your evil plotting!

Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

PM: Inevitability
Subject: Villainous Competition 22, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 22 Questions in the header.

Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:

- Use capitalization and punctuation, correctly.
- Make good use of Spoilers, for cleanliness.
- Don't forget your sources. If it's something that can be found in the contents section, then book title seems to be fine. Obscure stuff, may want to include page number too.
- DeviantArt has about 9 billion pictures that you can reference, I can almost guarantee you can find one there to fit your character.
- Make good use of tables. In addition to the Build table and the Spells table, I like doing one for my Ability Scores, just to keep it neat.
- Do a build stub at the top of your Build Table, something like Wizard 2/Fighter 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10

As always: let's keep it nice.

I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.

New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

Spoiler

Show

It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

Novolin
Yklikt

[Inevitability]

Clarifications

d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
- I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it! I tend to get quite a few messages of this nature each round.
- For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
- For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
- Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.




Everyone, have fun!

[Tiri]

Well, this will be interesting.

What I'm really curious about, though, is why the banned members get coloured names.

[Inevitability]

What I'm really curious about, though, is why the banned members get coloured names.

Novolin's was colored red by Thurbane, and I figured I'd give Yklikt another color to make it more distinctive. Green was the first thing that came to mind.

[Tiri]

Novolin's was colored red by Thurbane, and I figured I'd give Yklikt another color to make it more distinctive. Green was the first thing that came to mind.

Honestly, I feel like the bright colours make the names dominate the post, which I think is not a good thing.

[Florian]

Just a suggestion: Let´s keep this positive and not talk about certain people and prior VCs, ok?

[Inevitability]

Honestly, I feel like the bright colours make the names dominate the post, which I think is not a good thing.

It's all the way at the bottom, though. I'll just spoiler it: hopefully that should end this discussion.

[khadgar567]

lets hope no one disturbs completions serenity shall we?

[Tiri]

lets hope no one disturbs completions serenity shall we?

All the previously disruptive individuals have been banned in one way or another, so it looks like that chances of that are high.

[khadgar567]

@tiri what i mean is lets have a competition were every one acts as adult not 5 year old snooty brat

[AvatarVecna]

Got an interesting idea for this. Hopefully I'll even be able to finish it this time, too!

[ben-zayb]

I... I was hoping it would be multiheaded this time, because RL is pretty busy at the moment and I want to participate in a ninja round so badly.

Alright, let's do this time-management thing.

[Tiri]

@tiri what i mean is lets have a competition were every one acts as adult not 5 year old snooty brat

I don't feel like people in these competitions generally behave like that, but I suppose that's a good thing to hope for.

[danielxcutter]

I have a feeling that all the entries will be super powerful on their own but will get rekt if they fight the PCs in a group.

[Florian]

S**t, am I out of shape when it comes to 3.5E, I´m surprised how much I´ve forgotten.
I´m going for a low-power, low-complexity entry making heavy use of Oriental Adventures. Someone interested to partner up with me an proof-read my build?

[Hackulator]

If I advance a creature with the dragon type by 5 HD, does the CR go up by 2 or 3?

Also, do we frown on advancing a monster through both HD advancement and class levels?

[danielxcutter]

Hack, you might want to edit that and ask the Chairman directly.

[Inevitability]

If I advance a creature with the dragon type by 5 HD, does the CR go up by 2 or 3?

That's a long-running question I can't just answer like this. I suppose RAW it'd only go up by 2, though any judges would be completely in the right if they deemed that inelegant.

Also, do we frown on advancing a monster through both HD advancement and class levels?

I personally see no reason to.

[Tiri]

Just remember, you can't advance a creature with RHD after the first class level. A fair number of builds have been penalised for that in the past.

[Waker]

Hmm, a fair stretch of time to put in an entry and an idea in my head. I'll claim to be participating, but we'll see.

[Ywv]

Hello. Interesting competition you have here.

[Hackulator]

That's a long-running question I can't just answer like this. I suppose RAW it'd only go up by 2, though any judges would be completely in the right if they deemed that inelegant.

How is it inelegant if it's applying the increase properly?

[Inevitability]

Hello. Interesting competition you have here.

Greetings, New Competitor Who Is Totally Not A Troll.

How is it inelegant if it's applying the increase properly?

Well, a large part of the category of 'inelegant' is basically 'legal, but not in a good way'.

Imagine someone starts with a CR 4 fey, adds 3 HD without increasing CR, then adds 16 class levels. This is legal by RAW, but the HD increase was a random step in the process that increased the monster's power without anything sacrificed in return. By not penalizing such a thing, a judge is effectively punishing everybody who gave their creatures class levels without squeezing out every drop of advanceable RHD. I can understand people wanting to avoid that.

[Deadline]

Hello. Interesting competition you have here.

*sigh* Goddammit.

[Ywv]

Greetings, New Competitor Who Is Totally Not A Troll.

Seriously, though, I am not a certain other person back from wherever banned members go. I just thought his name was interesting, and I didn't have to look far for avatar material once I decided to use that.

[khadgar567]

Seriously, though, I am not a certain other person back from wherever banned members go. I just thought his name was interesting, and I didn't have to look far for avatar material once I decided to use that.

do you want prof mate check the bolded part and think about a better way to lie to others( denying is classic guilty response so busted!)

[Ywv]

do you want prof mate check the bolded part and think about a better way to lie to others( denying is classic guilty response so busted!)

Oh no. You got me.

[Hackulator]

Well, a large part of the category of 'inelegant' is basically 'legal, but not in a good way'.

Imagine someone starts with a CR 4 fey, adds 3 HD without increasing CR, then adds 16 class levels. This is legal by RAW, but the HD increase was a random step in the process that increased the monster's power without anything sacrificed in return. By not penalizing such a thing, a judge is effectively punishing everybody who gave their creatures class levels without squeezing out every drop of advanceable RHD. I can understand people wanting to avoid that.

Ok I understand. I just need certain specific class levels and then there is left over CR and I'm trying to figure out how much HD to add.

[khadgar567]

Oh no. You got me.

are you kidding me mate? that was dc 5 sense motive check i made them while sleeping.

[Tiri]

Ok I understand. I just need certain specific class levels and then there is left over CR and I'm trying to figure out how much HD to add.

Did you miss the part where I told you that you can't add RHD after you add class levels? That was important.