Eldritch Knight help

[Koren]

Alright I have a Dragon born EK, just hit level 7, and I realize I really want more spell versatility. I'm strongly considering multiclassing into a Wizard. Because I can be ridiculous I've already gone through Google, this forum, the ek guide Bellator Arcana, and just about every other sources I can find for the pros and cons of this.

Ultimately I want to remain primarily an up close Fighter with spells rather than a wizard in heavy armor. I already know I'm going to do either two wizard levels for the small boost or 8 (ish) with the Tough feat to make up for lost health gain.

the determining factor is Level 4 spells. with 2 wizard levels I will never see them, and since this is my first campaign, the strongest spell any of my characters ever cast was Witch bolt. 2 wizard levels matches what I initially wanted (more cantrips) and lets me get Arcane Charge which I'm excited for, but 8 let's me get higher level spells and Misty Step is basically Arcane Charge at will anyway.

I don't have my character sheet nearby but if I remember right his current stats are str 20 dex 10 ish, con 14 ish, into 14, wis like 12, Cha 10. I use a Glaive and Polearm Master.

[Specter]

That's a good idea (consider Abjurer and Diviner), but you should wait until level 8. It gives you not only an ASI but a school-free 2nd-level spell, which is something you defninitely want for Blur or Hold Person, for example.

[clash]

If the biggest thing that you want from wizard is more cantrips, then why not just take magic initiate(wizard). It will give you 2 cantrips and a level 1 spell once a day which opens up a lot of options and fighters get enough asi's that ti shouldnt be an issue.

[Koren]

Ooh Hold Person would be great. I'm definitely going Abjuration with how often I cast Shield.

would you say level 4 spells can't be passed up though? just a 2 level dip means I never get them to my understanding.

my current thought is fighter 8, then take two levels in Wizard, bump Fighter to 12, and then either push Wizard or fighter the rest of the way (grabbing Tough probably at Wizard 4) depending on if people say lv 4 spells are too good to lose.

[Specter]

Ooh Hold Person would be great. I'm definitely going Abjuration with how often I cast Shield.

would you say level 4 spells can't be passed up though? just a 2 level dip means I never get them to my understanding.

my current thought is fighter 8, then take two levels in Wizard, bump Fighter to 12, and then either push Wizard or fighter the rest of the way (grabbing Tough probably at Wizard 4) depending on if people say lv 4 spells are too good to lose.

If you really want 4th-level spells (which may never happen depending on your campaign), you have two options:
1) Never multiclass
2) Take 7 Wizard levels instead of 2

I'd recommend EK12/Wiz8 if that's what you want. Fighters don't get a lot after level 12.

[jaappleton]

I'd suggest going Bladesinger 3.

This gets you second level Wizard spells. More spell slots. Bladesong twice per short rest, which synergizes well with Second Wind and Action Surge.

[Specter]

I'd suggest going Bladesinger 3.

Isn't there the Elf/Half-elf race limitation?

[mephnick]

I'd suggest going Bladesinger 3.

This gets you second level Wizard spells. More spell slots. Bladesong twice per short rest, which synergizes well with Second Wind and Action Surge.

Edit: uses a pole-arm. No Bladesong for him.

[jaappleton]

Specter,

The Bladesinger racial restriction can be lifted at DMs discretion.

Though Mephnick is 100% correct, the Polearm makes my suggestion null and void. Missed that part, my bad.

[Coranhann]

That's a good idea (consider Abjurer and Diviner), but you should wait until level 8. It gives you not only an ASI but a school-free 2nd-level spell, which is something you defninitely want for Blur or Hold Person, for example.

Just clarifying one thing: at level 7, you can change the "school free" spell you got at level 3 to a new, 2nd level spell.
So while you do get a second school free spell at level 8, and the ASI (so awesome level, good break off point), you can already cast hold person as soon as level 7. Just saying.

Source: http://media.wizards.com/2016/downlo.../PH-Errata.pdf

[Koren]

If the biggest thing that you want from wizard is more cantrips, then why not just take magic initiate(wizard). It will give you 2 cantrips and a level 1 spell once a day which opens up a lot of options and fighters get enough asi's that ti shouldnt be an issue.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm mostly wanting to multiclass because I am far too whimsical as a player. I look into details to a ridiculous degree.

Essentially I looked at Magic initiate at first, was gonna do it, and then saw all the incredibly useful additions Wizard class could give me. even just the level one Wizard feature would have been immensely useful last game.

If you really want 4th-level spells (which may never happen depending on your campaign), you have two options:
1) Never multiclass
2) Take 7 Wizard levels instead of 2

I'd recommend EK12/Wiz8 if that's what you want. Fighters don't get a lot after level 12.

Honestly I've never even seen a 4th level spells cast, and the most spell oriented class in the party is the Bard. If it were just me I wouldn't care either way, not like I know what I'm missing, but I think it would help out the party and it definitely sounds fun.

[Rogerdodger557]

I play an Eldritch Knight, and hit level 14 over the weekend. Depending on what you want for cantrips, Magic Initiate might be the better pick(Booming Blade,Lightning Lure, etc.), but the benefits of multiclassing wizard are there(especially if you can use Unearthed Arcana), but going straight Eldritch Knight isn't that bad. At fighter level 11 you get three attacks for the attack action, at 13 you get 3rd level spells, and at 14 you can run into a group of enemies, hit three, teleport out, and tell your DM my favorite three words: Action. Surge. Fireball. You'll also get an Indomnitable roll for those failed saves once you hit fighter 9. Personally, I would stick with fighter for the ASI and/or feats. maybe bump you INT, make it harder for the enemies to avoid your spells, and such.

[Chunkosaurus]

If UA is allowed the War Wizard would make for a very potent Wizard Multiclass. I'd do a 10/10 split as that allows you to get 5 ASIs and great features from both classes. War wizard also synergizes really well with EK War magic feature

[Koren]

If UA is allowed the War Wizard would make for a very potent Wizard Multiclass. I'd do a 10/10 split as that allows you to get 5 ASIs and great features from both classes. War wizard also synergizes really well with EK War magic feature

do you have a link? that's one UA I haven't seen yet and I know my DM isn't opposed to them so long as he looks first

[jaappleton]

do you have a link? that's one UA I haven't seen yet and I know my DM isn't opposed to them so long as he looks first

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/d...zardVF2017.pdf

[Koren]

this looks pretty interesting! it's like "want to be a Bladesinger with armor? here ya go!

the first ability clashes a bit with Shield since it uses the reaction and only works on the one attack, but the rest sound like they would make a fun EK6/WizardX build

[kenposan]

I had the same dilemma, actually posted a similar thread about a week or so ago.

I ultimately stayed with EK because I didn't want to give up my EK advancements (war magic, 3rd attack....). You can pick up Spell Sniper, Magic Initiate, or Ritual Caster if you want more spell options w/o MCing.

[Biggstick]

If you have a good DM for it, I would suggest Ritual Caster to feel more like a spellcaster. The reason I say you need a good DM, is you are only given two initial spells in your Ritual book. After that, you have to find scrolls or other Wizard's spellbooks in which you can copy the rituals from. Seeing as how you're level 8, you'd be able to copy at least level 4 Rituals into your book (and they'd Wizard rituals, assuming you chose the Wizard Class as your Ritual class). All of a sudden the Fighter is capable of casting spells like Identify, Find Familiar, Tesner's Floating Disc, Leomund's Tiny Hut, etc.

I'd also recommend what a few others have said. You've already gone this far into Fighter. You should go to at least Fighter 11 for the third attack before you decide to multiclass Wizard.

[Koren]

If you have a good DM for it, I would suggest Ritual Caster to feel more like a spellcaster. The reason I say you need a good DM, is you are only given two initial spells in your Ritual book. After that, you have to find scrolls or other Wizard's spellbooks in which you can copy the rituals from. Seeing as how you're level 8, you'd be able to copy at least level 4 Rituals into your book (and they'd Wizard rituals, assuming you chose the Wizard Class as your Ritual class). All of a sudden the Fighter is capable of casting spells like Identify, Find Familiar, Tesner's Floating Disc, Leomund's Tiny Hut, etc.

I'd also recommend what a few others have said. You've already gone this far into Fighter. You should go to at least Fighter 11 for the third attack before you decide to multiclass Wizard.

my DM is great, I am sure he would work with me.

at the very least I'm going Fighter 12 (extra attack at 11, asi at 12 I think, after that the only feature I really care for is Arcane Charge and that's just because it sounds awesome). if I dip wizard before that point it will be for the added spell slots more than anything. Shield for DAYS! niche unrestricted spells like feather fall couldn't hurt as well.

are there any Level 4 spells that are particularly great for an Eldritch Knight I should be considering? I'm thinking about the level 4 spells as a group but without having playtested them nothing really stands out any more than the rest.

[Biggstick]

my DM is great, I am sure he would work with me.

at the very least I'm going Fighter 12 (extra attack at 11, asi at 12 I think, after that the only feature I really care for is Arcane Charge and that's just because it sounds awesome). if I dip wizard before that point it will be for the added spell slots more than anything. Shield for DAYS! niche unrestricted spells like feather fall couldn't hurt as well.

are there any Level 4 spells that are particularly great for an Eldritch Knight I should be considering? I'm thinking about the level 4 spells as a group but without having playtested them nothing really stands out any more than the rest.

Think about when you would be gaining access to 4th level spells (not 4th level spell slots, but actual 4th level spells) on this character. If you were to do it right now (level 8) in your character build, you wouldn't see 4th level spells until character level 15. You have to decide if the trade-off of Eldritch Knight levels 9-15 is worth Wizard levels 1-7 during that character-level time period. In my experience, I've only ever played one game that made it to level 20, and that was a game with an extremely escalated leveling pattern. Most of my games tend to be played from the levels of 3-12. I would want to make my character playable and enjoyable within those levels. Planning beyond level 15 is something I don't really see as viable though because of my experience.

To answer your question, I don't really see any 4th level spells as standing out for an Eldritch Knight other then Greater Invisibility when being gained this late in the game (15th level PC's are facing some pretty incredible threats that aren't really phased by the control spells of a 7th level Wizard). I know there are plenty of great 4th level spells that are for utility such as Polymorph, Arcane Eye, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Dimension Door, etc, but I just don't see them as being as good for combat.

Now third level spells; there is something to say for the value of third level spells. Three spells in particular stand out to me, those spells being Counterspell, Fly, and Haste. All three are extremely powerful in combat scenarios and bring some interesting spellcasting capabilities to your Eldritch Knight. I wouldn't push past Wizard level 5 or 6 (depending on the school) personally, as I'd want more Fighter levels on my Eldritch Knight. This paragraph is me simply speaking from a personal preference though, not an optimization one.

[Koren]

Think about when you would be gaining access to 4th level spells (not 4th level spell slots, but actual 4th level spells) on this character. If you were to do it right now (level 8) in your character build, you wouldn't see 4th level spells until character level 15. You have to decide if the trade-off of Eldritch Knight levels 9-15 is worth Wizard levels 1-7 during that character-level time period. In my experience, I've only ever played one game that made it to level 20, and that was a game with an extremely escalated leveling pattern. Most of my games tend to be played from the levels of 3-12. I would want to make my character playable and enjoyable within those levels. Planning beyond level 15 is something I don't really see as viable though because of my experience.

To answer your question, I don't really see any 4th level spells as standing out for an Eldritch Knight other then Greater Invisibility when being gained this late in the game (15th level PC's are facing some pretty incredible threats that aren't really phased by the control spells of a 7th level Wizard). I know there are plenty of great 4th level spells that are for utility such as Polymorph, Arcane Eye, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Dimension Door, etc, but I just don't see them as being as good for combat.

Now third level spells; there is something to say for the value of third level spells. Three spells in particular stand out to me, those spells being Counterspell, Fly, and Haste. All three are extremely powerful in combat scenarios and bring some interesting spellcasting capabilities to your Eldritch Knight. I wouldn't push past Wizard level 5 or 6 (depending on the school) personally, as I'd want more Fighter levels on my Eldritch Knight. This paragraph is me simply speaking from a personal preference though, not an optimization one.

a pure eldritch knight wouldn't see 4th level spells until 19, if I went Wizard hard starting now I would actually see them faster. besides, I accepted low odds of seeing high level spells forever ago. I'm really not concerned about the When.

isn't Counterspell the only one Eldritch Knights can learn without it being one of their special unrestricted spell? it doesn't matter as much I just can't look reliably at the moment.

[Biggstick]

a pure eldritch knight wouldn't see 4th level spells until 19, if I went Wizard hard starting now I would actually see them faster. besides, I accepted low odds of seeing high level spells forever ago. I'm really not concerned about the When.

isn't Counterspell the only one Eldritch Knights can learn without it being one of their special unrestricted spell? it doesn't matter as much I just can't look reliably at the moment.

Counterspell is an Abjuration spell.

You're right that a regular Eldritch Knight wouldn't see 4th level spells till level 19. You're also right in that if you go Wizard now, you'll see them faster.

But here's the thing, you're going to be going 7 levels into a class for 4th level spells. Is that the only thing you're making this decision for? is this decision going to be a choice you're happier with compared to gaining Eldritch Knight levels 9-15? I don't want to tell you "Nobadwronglame," for going with Wizard levels, I just want to help you see your options.

In the original post, you stated you want to remain an up front Fighter instead of being a Wizard in heavy armor. Does your version of an up front Fighter have three attacks for the second half of their adventuring career (levels 11-20)? Or do they gain their third attack much later on in their career (which if you were to take 7 levels of Wizard right now, your third attack would come online at character level 18). How important is gaining access to 4th level spells to you? Speaking of which, what spells exactly are you looking for that are 4th level Wizard spells?

[jaappleton]

Counterspell is an Abjuration spell.

You're right that a regular Eldritch Knight wouldn't see 4th level spells till level 19. You're also right in that if you go Wizard now, you'll see them faster.

But here's the thing, you're going to be going 7 levels into a class for 4th level spells. Is that the only thing you're making this decision for? is this decision going to be a choice you're happier with compared to gaining Eldritch Knight levels 9-15? I don't want to tell you "Nobadwronglame," for going with Wizard levels, I just want to help you see your options.

In the original post, you stated you want to remain an up front Fighter instead of being a Wizard in heavy armor. Does your version of an up front Fighter have three attacks for the second half of their adventuring career (levels 11-20)? Or do they gain their third attack much later on in their career (which if you were to take 7 levels of Wizard right now, your third attack would come online at character level 18). How important is gaining access to 4th level spells to you? Speaking of which, what spells exactly are you looking for that are 4th level Wizard spells?

He's not just getting higher level Wizard spells, but also access to the entire Wizard spell list for those levels.

[Koren]

He's not just getting higher level Wizard spells, but also access to the entire Wizard spell list for those levels.

This. I wanted more cantrips because I couldn't choose between Lightning Lure, Booming Blade, and Shocking Touch. My decision ultimately became less between Multiclassing or staying pure, and more between whether I wanted Arcane Charge + Improved War Magic or higher level spells (if I get there) and free access to all of them. Hence my question, since I don't even know if higher level spells are even worthwhile for me.

I probably should have been a bit more clear and for that I apologize.

[dejarnjc]

the determining factor is Level 4 spells. with 2 wizard levels I will never see them

I'm confused, I thought that with two wizards levels, you'd get to 4th level spells faster? For example, a normal EK wouldn't see 4th level spells till level 19 while an EK 15/Wiz 2 would see them at level 17???

[mephnick]

I'm confused, I thought that with two wizards levels, you'd get to 4th level spells faster? For example, a normal EK wouldn't see 4th level spells till level 19 while an EK 15/Wiz 2 would see them at level 17???

Spells known are determined by your classes seperately. You may have 4th levels spell slots, but you only know spells of a 15th level EK and a 2nd level Wizard.

[Chunkosaurus]

this looks pretty interesting! it's like "want to be a Bladesinger with armor? here ya go!

the first ability clashes a bit with Shield since it uses the reaction and only works on the one attack, but the rest sound like they would make a fun EK6/WizardX build

But if you need to make a save +4 to that is amazing. You also will run out of first level slots so you can still have a pseudoshield

[Koren]

Yeah I might ask my DM if he's ok with this.

[dejarnjc]

Spells known are determined by your classes seperately. You may have 4th levels spell slots, but you only know spells of a 15th level EK and a 2nd level Wizard.

OK.. just to clarify, by spells known you don't mean spells in the spellbook right? So if a 15Ek/2Wiz found a 4th level spell and scribed it. Presumably they couldn't then prepare it?


Kinda puts a damper on EK/Wiz multi-classes. I wonder if house-ruling away that particular restriction would break anything... hmmm.

[mephnick]

OK.. just to clarify, by spells known you don't mean spells in the spellbook right? So if a 15Ek/2Wiz found a 4th level spell and scribed it. Presumably they couldn't then prepare it?


Kinda puts a damper on EK/Wiz multi-classes. I wonder if house-ruling away that particular restriction would break anything... hmmm.

Yep. I wouldn't house-rule it away, EK/Wiz is already a very competent combo. You can still upcast spells into higher spell slots that you don't have spells for and a majority of the EK's power comes from low level spells in the first place. Getting rid of the multiclass restrictions is a pretty major upgrade that would break the system in a lot of other cases.

If you want higher level spells there's nothing wrong with going EK 11/Wiz9 or EK10/Wiz10 or EK11/War Cleric 9. EK makes the perfect partner for a true multi-class.