Capturing the Feel of Star Wars

[daniel_ream]

What about the fact that one of the estates of the realm was psychics (the Jedi [and later, in the time of the empire, the sith, though they were more akin to royalty] in Star Wars and the Bene Geserit and Spacers in Dune)

The original name for the Jedi was jedi bendu, which is a portmanteau of samurai geddai and bindu. Bindu is a term from Buddhism; the Force is nothing more than Zen Buddhism filtered (erroneously) through Jungian philosophy (it was the 70's. Jung was huge in pop psychology at the time).

You'll probably notice that prana-bindu is also from Dune, the name for one of the Bene Gessirit arts. But if you look at the script drafts for Episode IV, it's pretty clear they're both pulling from the same source (Hindu Buddhism). Lucas was certainly aware of Dune, the references to spice and the sandworm skeletons are dead giveaways, and I'm sure some of the ideas of the Kwizatz Haderach leaked in there a bit. But the Jedi aren't Bene Gesserit and certainly the Sith aren't either.

If you look at the original script drafts you'll see how these ideas developed over time.

[Bohandas]

Not quite. If we take Rogue One into consideration, the base was destroyed to keep it from falling into rebel hands/stop the transmission of stolen data. Why he targets a point far enough away from the research base that they had time to complete the transmission is purely cinimatic. If he had zapped the base directly, they would have created a(nother) time paradox, in that the plans were never stolen.

The plans were already transmitted before he even gave the order

[Yora]

Rogue One is like a lesson in why to avoid immediately contiguous prequels.

These problems with Rogue One come down to excessive fan service. Which still doesn't come close to how bad it was in Force Awakens.

It's not a story that stands on its own feet but is entirely about referencing Episode 4.

Star Wars in general is a lesson in why to avoid any prequels.

[daniel_ream]

Star Wars in general is a lesson in why to avoid any prequels.

The worst thing that can happen to any beloved cult IP is for it to fall into the hands of its fans.

[Mutazoia]

The plans were already transmitted before he even gave the order

He didn't know that. It's not like the rebels called him up and said "Oh, hey...so we're done transmitting your plans now, could you call off the attack?"

[Bohandas]

The original name for the Jedi was jedi bendu, which is a portmanteau of samurai geddai and bindu. Bindu is a term from Buddhism; the Force is nothing more than Zen Buddhism filtered (erroneously) through Jungian philosophy (it was the 70's. Jung was huge in pop psychology at the time).

Does "ashla" mean anything in real life? IIRC they were the Jedi Bendu Knights of Ashla

[daniel_ream]

Does "ashla" mean anything in real life? IIRC they were the Jedi Bendu Knights of Ashla

Not that I'm aware of. At one point in the script rewrites, "Ashla" was the name for the light side of the Force. I assume it was lifted from somewhere, but it's likely been corrupted or misspelled.

[Varon]

I think one of the biggest things about the feel of Star Wars is that it's supposed to be fun, maybe even cheesy, high dramatic adventure in space. Think Indiana Jones. They take these crazy, impossible concepts, and don't necessarily run them super seriously, but at least takes the story itself seriously. So, perhaps a more tongue in cheek view might be helpful. But I guess the important thing is that you create the feel of the story that you want to tell.

[Beleriphon]

Unless we take Rogue One into consideration as well, in which case the destruction of Alderaan was part of an established pattern of being a deranged sadistic maniac who likes to randomly blow stuff up

In fairness, I'm pretty Tarkin was just that as of ANH as well. Rogue One just takes what he does in ANH and does it before(?) Alderaan. Remember, the reason he blows up Alderaan is because Dantooine is too remote to make a good example. It would be like blowing up Tokyo because Boise Idaho is too small a target in comparison, even if you really, really needed to blow up Boise.

[Max_Killjoy]

In fairness, I'm pretty Tarkin was just that as of ANH as well. Rogue One just takes what he does in ANH and does it before(?) Alderaan. Remember, the reason he blows up Alderaan is because Dantooine is too remote to make a good example. It would be like blowing up Tokyo because Boise Idaho is too small a target in comparison, even if you really, really needed to blow up Boise.

Tarkin was an evil SOB, but of the cold, ruthless, utterly calculating variety -- not the deranged madman variety.

[Lacuna Caster]

The worst thing that can happen to any beloved cult IP is for it to fall into the hands of its fans.

I guess I'm butting into the discussion a bit late, but can you expand on that? I mean, the default impression I get is that the 3 films coming from the original author were excoriated, and the 2 films coming from ascended fanboys have been well-received?

[Max_Killjoy]

I guess I'm butting into the discussion a bit late, but can you expand on that? I mean, the default impression I get is that the 3 films coming from the original author were excoriated, and the 2 films coming from ascended fanboys have been well-received?

The original three movies were good movies. Not great, but very good. Lucas wasn't flying solo with those movies, however. There were a lot of people cleaning up his ideas.

The three Lucas prequels were garbage. Those were entirely his, and it showed.

TFA was just another JJ Abrams movie, with a Star Wars veneer... "JJ Abrams redoes A New Hope".

Rogue One... I like the idea, but the execution ended up hamfistedly cramming itself too closely into the start of ANH.

[Lord Raziere]

.......Is it any worse than the franchise being taken by execs and constantly trotted out doing the same things over and over until its undead for money?

[Beleriphon]

The original three movies were good movies. Not great, but very good. Lucas wasn't flying solo with those movies, however. There were a lot of people cleaning up his ideas.

This. Lucas didn't direct ESB or RotJ, and he isn't the sole writing credit on any of the originals. While the new trilogy are Luas' sole writing and directing, and they unfortunately fell into kiss ass types not trying to correct or improve errors in judgment from George Lucas.

[daniel_ream]

I guess I'm butting into the discussion a bit late, but can you expand on that? I mean, the default impression I get is that the 3 films coming from the original author were excoriated, and the 2 films coming from ascended fanboys have been well-received?

Sure. It's a general statement, not about Star Wars specifically.

The problem with many fans is that their fandom for a property is based on a deep emotional attachment to it that has nothing to do with the property itself, but rather that the property serves as a crutch for their own insecurities or identity issues. This goes right back to "Fans are Slans" in the 1940's. Fans obsess over minutiae like how many parsecs the Kessel run is, or seize on some minor throwaway detail like Figwit or Boba Fett and blow it up into a vastly more important element than it was intended to be. Sometimes it's simple nostalgia; everyone sees their childhood through rose-coloured glasses.

When fandom is based not on the actual property per se but the emotional dysfunction of the fan, then they drag that emotional dysfunction into any fan work they create while overriding the original themes and tropes of the original work. They focus on those elements of the fandom that soothe their dysfunction while ignoring the rest of it. This tends to produce cringe-worthy work that says more about the author's psyche than the original property's themes and ideas.

I see elements of this in TFA; it certainly has Abrams' stamp all over it. R1 is a trainwreck of author-insert agitprop, but I can't detail that here without violating the forum rules.

.......Is it any worse than the franchise being taken by execs and constantly trotted out doing the same things over and over until its undead for money?

I would argue that it's "worse", inasmuch as there's any objective "worse". A competently executed by-the-numbers sequel is at least an enjoyable 90 minutes. A cringe-fest of fanwank is painful to watch. YMMV.

[daniel_ream]

While the new trilogy [...] fell into kiss ass types not trying to correct or improve errors in judgment from George Lucas.

If you watch the now-infamous Mr. Plinkett reviews of the trilogy, he makes the point, based on the body language of the production crew in the behind-the-scenes features, that they aren't kiss-asses. They're afraid of George. It's an interesting thesis.

[Lacuna Caster]

The three Lucas prequels were garbage. Those were entirely his, and it showed.

TFA was just another JJ Abrams movie, with a Star Wars veneer... "JJ Abrams redoes A New Hope".

Rogue One... I like the idea, but the execution ended up hamfistedly cramming itself too closely into the start of ANH.

When fandom is based not on the actual property per se but the emotional dysfunction of the fan, then they drag that emotional dysfunction into any fan work they create while overriding the original themes and tropes of the original work. They focus on those elements of the fandom that soothe their dysfunction while ignoring the rest of it. This tends to produce cringe-worthy work that says more about the author's psyche than the original property's themes and ideas.

I see elements of this in TFA; it certainly has Abrams' stamp all over it. R1 is a trainwreck of author-insert agitprop, but I can't detail that here without violating the forum rules.

I should preface this by saying that I never really clicked with the original trilogy*, so this is kind of like forensic investigation to me, but it may account for why I liked Rogue 1 so much- precisely because it overrides tropes and themes of the original films than I found questionable. (Hey, a strong robot protagonist who isn't mindlessly servile or secretly malevolent! A guerilla resistance movement using guerilla resistance tactics! And glory be, Imperial troops that feel legitimately threatening!) Sure, Leia and Vader are pointless and half the characters are dispensible one-note cyphers, but while I can't speak to author-insert qualities I felt like I agreed with what the author had to say.

By contrast, TFA was a movie so intensely derivative and focus-group-constructed that I barely saw the point to making it. However, I can't say that it didn't appeal to the intended audience and even a large portion of critics, all while making pots of money. It's hard to call that a failure, exactly?

* EDIT: Except Empire. Empire was mostly good.

[daniel_ream]

By contrast, TFA was a movie so intensely derivative and focus-group-constructed that I barely saw the point to making it.

That was the point. TFA was essentially Disney playing it extremely safe after the prequels. They needed a movie that said "see, we get what you like about Star Wars and we're going to give you that, except with everything turned up to eleven."

Based on the fan reaction, I'd say they weren't wrong.

[Lord Raziere]

I would argue that it's "worse", inasmuch as there's any objective "worse". A competently executed by-the-numbers sequel is at least an enjoyable 90 minutes. A cringe-fest of fanwank is painful to watch. YMMV.

???

I have no idea what your talking about. I have never heard of either. you'll have to do better than "YMMV" like you do on tvtropes.

[daniel_ream]

I have no idea what your talking about. I have never heard of either.

You've never heard of a competently executed by-the-numbers movie sequel? Do you not watch a lot of movies, then?

[Lord Raziere]

You've never heard of a competently executed by-the-numbers movie sequel? Do you not watch a lot of movies, then?

I've never heard of one that was enjoyable or competently done. nor have I heard of a "cringefest of fanwank".

as for the second question: do you? in my experience, the sequels are always bad because they're by the numbers.

[Beleriphon]

If you watch the now-infamous Mr. Plinkett reviews of the trilogy, he makes the point, based on the body language of the production crew in the behind-the-scenes features, that they aren't kiss-asses. They're afraid of George. It's an interesting thesis.

Kiss ass from fear, or otherwise nobody was willing to step up and say, "George that sucks, you really shouldn't do that."

All that said, yes men don't make a game feel like Star Wars. Unless those yes men are telling Darth Vader yes, then its completely in line with Star Wars. At least if Vader chokes them to death from half way across an asteroid field.

[Anonymouswizard]

In all honesty, the prequels weren't that bad, if you were the intended audience. Adult fans weren't, the target audience was kids the same age as those who had got excited by the original Star Wars.

I was one of those kids, and I still like some bits of episode 1. Heck, I liked Jar Jar back when I first saw the film, although kid Anakin was still annoying. I certainly don't rate it as the worst SW film (it's certainly better than Attack of the Clones), although I'll admit it's probably not as good as the original three where people were willing to slap Lucas when he did something stupid.

On the other hand, I still get a massive meh at some bits of the OT because it's so much fantasy in space, whereas some bits of the PT make me feel like it's trying to be science fiction.

Oh, and TFA is weird. There's a lot of people who seem to adore it, but I got a meh from it. It's main draw was being fun, but not the kind of fun that makes me interested in The Ultimate Jedi, but I did get a lot of the rehash and it seemed to have more focus on the boring character, cutting an interesting one out of the plot in order to give her more to do.


So in answer to the thread's question, you obviously run three good sessions, followed by three mediocre sessions, followed by redoing the first session but with everything bigger (superweapons, planets, dice...)

[Mutazoia]

So in answer to the thread's question, you obviously run three good sessions, followed by three mediocre sessions, followed by redoing the first session but with everything bigger (superweapons, planets, dice...)

No, no, no.

You run 3 good sessions. Next, you do a short, stand-alone session in Endor, where the PC's are all children. Then you wait a while and then re-do the those first 3 sessions and replace the special effects. THEN you do 3 mediocre sessions that take place before your first 3 sessions, but ignore most of the established facts that you laid down in your first sessions, but make some of your NPCs (and a character or two) from the first sessions do cameo's, just to kinda force a tie-in with the prequal sessions, THEN you run a session that takes place long after your first 3 sessions, that uses the same basic plot elements from your first session, but use more lens flair. And make your players create new characters.

[Lacuna Caster]

That was the point. TFA was essentially Disney playing it extremely safe after the prequels. They needed a movie that said "see, we get what you like about Star Wars and we're going to give you that, except with everything turned up to eleven."

Based on the fan reaction, I'd say they weren't wrong.

Oh, I totally see the logic. I was just so annoyed by the tone of slapdash nostalgia and Rey's mary-sue attributes that I left the theatre muttering complaints about 15 minutes before the credits. (Then again, phasma has the opposite problem.)


Anyway, as for capturing the feel of the original trilogy- probably lots of RP-derived metagame currency, like Artha or Inspiration or Hero Points or what have you, plus twists and complications as a failure mechanism.

[daniel_ream]

Oh, I totally see the logic. I was just so annoyed by the tone of slapdash nostalgia and Rey's mary-sue attributes that I left the theatre muttering complaints about 15 minutes before the credits.)

One of the friends I attended the film with said afterwards "there was certainly a lot of audible face-palming coming from your side of the theater". Which I admit, although it was mostly dismay at how hard they were recycling every Star Wars thing ever, including random bits from the first draft scripts.

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh, I totally see the logic. I was just so annoyed by the tone of slapdash nostalgia and Rey's mary-sue attributes that I left the theatre muttering complaints about 15 minutes before the credits. (Then again, phasma has the opposite problem.)

Since you're someone I trust not to just throw "mary sue" around carelessly, what specifically did you see as "marysueish" about her?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Anyway, as for capturing the feel of the original trilogy- probably lots of RP-derived metagame currency, like Artha or Inspiration or Hero Points or what have you, plus twists and complications as a failure mechanism.

And half of all complications are some variation of "you slice off your own hand".

[Lacuna Caster]

Since you're someone I trust not to just throw "mary sue" around carelessly, what specifically did you see as "marysueish" about her?

Broadly speaking, she didn't show any discernible flaw or weakness? She was at least competent, often outstanding, at any particular task she was given, especially when it comes to Force proficiency, when even Luke had to go through substantial mentoring before he could tap his latent abilities. And she has no dislikable qualities. In fact, I'd have trouble describing her personality or motives at all. Finn has something- he feels guilt about his role in Imperial atrocities, and Kylo Ren is obviously a big mess of daddy issues- but Rey... just seems to have stuff happen to her, gets told she has a manifest destiny and kinda goes along with it? And then Leia gives her a hug, because she's honorary family after five minutes' acquaintance?

I don't know. It's possible I'm being a little harsh, given my recollections of the film are a little fuzzy, but... that was my impression.

[Dragonexx]

Rey's not a Mary Sue. She's close but she hasn't crossed the threshold yet.