Personal Woes and Advice 5

[Florian]

This is more of a thought than anything else.

It's generally considered extremely rude to accuse other people of doing nasty inappropriate things. The problem is - sometimes people do nasty inappropriate things. There's no social script for that, so what most people notice first is how rude the accusation is.

Schatz, as usual you're arguing from your US POV and don't actually know how that works beyond that.

[Jay R]

This is more of a thought than anything else.

It's generally considered extremely rude to accuse other people of doing nasty inappropriate things. The problem is - sometimes people do nasty inappropriate things. There's no social script for that, so what most people notice first is how rude the accusation is.

Yup. Accusing them of it doesn't solve anything, and usually makes the situation worse.

Also, not everyone will agree with you that they are doing nasty inappropriate things, since that's often a matter of opinion. But most people will agree whether you have in fact accused them - since that's a matter of fact.

The next consideration is that in most electronic forums, there isn't enough bandwidth to make your case even if you're correct.

Most people making the accusation aren't just trying to fix things; they are also trying to win the discussion or argument. And a personal attack, such as, "You're doing nasty inappropriate things," has been recognized as the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem, and an invalid way to try to win an argument, since at least the time of Aristotle.

Hence, making the accusation is usually considered extremely rude.

[The Fury]

So an update for anyone that might have been worried-- I now have a titanium plate in my hand and am regaining use of it little by little. In fact, this is the first time in a great while that I'm able to type with both hands again. Funnily enough, a lot of my emotional problems seem to be finally abating somewhat. I'm not sure why though. Maybe all the ibuprofen I've been taking is improving my mood?

[HalfTangible]

So an update for anyone that might have been worried-- I now have a titanium plate in my hand and am regaining use of it little by little. In fact, this is the first time in a great while that I'm able to type with both hands again. Funnily enough, a lot of my emotional problems seem to be finally abating somewhat. I'm not sure why though. Maybe all the ibuprofen I've been taking is improving my mood?

Welcome back. And while this might have just been you and me, I found that my own emotional issues abated for a while after I got my own surgery last year. They've been coming back a bit lately, but it took months.

Good luck!

[The Fury]

Welcome back. And while this might have just been you and me, I found that my own emotional issues abated for a while after I got my own surgery last year. They've been coming back a bit lately, but it took months.

Good luck!

Thanks! So, with regards to emotional issues and surgery, maybe it's more relief that you were feeling and what I'm feeling now? I seem to recall that your surgery was a lot scarier than mine, (a brain tumor removal, right?) I imagine that it must have been quite a relief to have made it through. Sort of like how I'm relieved that I won't have to do things left-handed forever.

[WarKitty]

Yup. Accusing them of it doesn't solve anything, and usually makes the situation worse.

Also, not everyone will agree with you that they are doing nasty inappropriate things, since that's often a matter of opinion. But most people will agree whether you have in fact accused them - since that's a matter of fact.

The next consideration is that in most electronic forums, there isn't enough bandwidth to make your case even if you're correct.

Most people making the accusation aren't just trying to fix things; they are also trying to win the discussion or argument. And a personal attack, such as, "You're doing nasty inappropriate things," has been recognized as the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem, and an invalid way to try to win an argument, since at least the time of Aristotle.

Hence, making the accusation is usually considered extremely rude.

I wasn't necessarily talking about electronic forums. I definitely wasn't talking about cases where there is an argument that someone's trying to "win."

The problem is that if someone really is doing something bad that hurts other people, there's no way to address that without making an accusation. To borrow a scenario from captain awkward, for example, it's that there's no way to say "dude, so-and-so isn't socially awkward, he's harassing women and not taking no for an answer" that isn't seen as you're being horribly rude for accusing him of doing such a thing.

Personally, it comes up a lot dealing with family. The overall message is "Accusing people of doing nasty horrible things means you are rude and disrespectful and can't be taken seriously because you are BEING SO RUDE. How can you expect to ever work anything out if you keep being so rude and accusing them of such awful things?"

[The Fury]

I wasn't necessarily talking about electronic forums. I definitely wasn't talking about cases where there is an argument that someone's trying to "win."

The problem is that if someone really is doing something bad that hurts other people, there's no way to address that without making an accusation. To borrow a scenario from captain awkward, for example, it's that there's no way to say "dude, so-and-so isn't socially awkward, he's harassing women and not taking no for an answer" that isn't seen as you're being horribly rude for accusing him of doing such a thing.

Personally, it comes up a lot dealing with family. The overall message is "Accusing people of doing nasty horrible things means you are rude and disrespectful and can't be taken seriously because you are BEING SO RUDE. How can you expect to ever work anything out if you keep being so rude and accusing them of such awful things?"

Having said all that, sometimes people doing bad things really do need to be called out on their crappy behavior. You're not wrong though, I've seen people treat others around them like garbage and because there's not a "polite" way to call them out they largely get away with it. It sucks.

[HalfTangible]

Thanks! So, with regards to emotional issues and surgery, maybe it's more relief that you were feeling and what I'm feeling now? I seem to recall that your surgery was a lot scarier than mine, (a brain tumor removal, right?) I imagine that it must have been quite a relief to have made it through. Sort of like how I'm relieved that I won't have to do things left-handed forever.

Well...

It wasn't actually scary at all, is the thing. I just kinda... went with it. I'm not saying this to sound brave or anything, I was actually more worried about the fact that I wasn't worried. ("if it's my time, it's my time" is not the kind of thing a person should be thinking before they hit their 30s)

Cuz like... not only was the brain tumor probably messing with my head, but the idea of having your brain operated on is a lot less visceral than getting an operation in your hand. The brain has no sense of touch (which makes me wonder how headaches work) so you can't actually FEEL brain surgery, even if you ignore that there'd be anaesthesia. Sure, I could die, but I also know that having a knife in my brain is something I can't physically feel.

But everyone can picture what it feels like to have a knife in your hand. It's a heck of a lot scarier. And the metal plate I've got in my head is weird enough on my head.

Regardless, whatever emotional problems I had just seemed to vanish for months afterward. Enjoy it while it lasts, mate.

[factotum]

The brain has no sense of touch (which makes me wonder how headaches work)

There are many parts of the head which are not the brain and which have pain receptors in them--the veins and arteries, muscles, sinuses, etc. Any of these can hurt, and that can cause radiant pain that feels like it's inside the brain even though it isn't.

[WarKitty]

Having said all that, sometimes people doing bad things really do need to be called out on their crappy behavior. You're not wrong though, I've seen people treat others around them like garbage and because there's not a "polite" way to call them out they largely get away with it. It sucks.

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at. Or that when you do call someone out for their crappy behavior or say you're doing something because of their crappy behavior, you get the response of "Oh, but you shouldn't accuse people of things like that!" You're not being nice, and you're supposed to be nice.

[Chen]

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at. Or that when you do call someone out for their crappy behavior or say you're doing something because of their crappy behavior, you get the response of "Oh, but you shouldn't accuse people of things like that!" You're not being nice, and you're supposed to be nice.

Is this actually common outside your family? If theres evidence of someone doing something wrong/bad I see no problem bringing it up and have never had someone tell me “its not nice”. They may argue the evidence (or lack thereof) or that the act itself isn’t so bad, but never “well thats just not something you’re supposed to say”

[Liquor Box]

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at. Or that when you do call someone out for their crappy behavior or say you're doing something because of their crappy behavior, you get the response of "Oh, but you shouldn't accuse people of things like that!" You're not being nice, and you're supposed to be nice.

Others may disagree on whether the original behaviour was crappy.

If you think it is ok for you to pass judgment on person A, surely you accept that it is ok for person B to pass judgment on you - including if they think you unfairly maligned person A?

[WarKitty]

Others may disagree on whether the original behaviour was crappy.

If you think it is ok for you to pass judgment on person A, surely you accept that it is ok for person B to pass judgment on you - including if they think you unfairly maligned person A?

If they're actually judging based on facts and not just snap "oh you shouldn't say that!" sure. The problem comes when the person who's "not being nice" or "causing drama" is automatically presumed to be wrong.

Most abusive people only abuse behind closed doors.

Is this actually common outside your family? If theres evidence of someone doing something wrong/bad I see no problem bringing it up and have never had someone tell me “its not nice”. They may argue the evidence (or lack thereof) or that the act itself isn’t so bad, but never “well thats just not something you’re supposed to say”

Sure, first boyfriend. Saying anything bad about your ex means you're the one causing drama and making people take sides - even if you're genuinely afraid for your safety with him. If you can't prove it in a court of law, you're just making trouble.

It's a double bind with family because you can't be less than loving unless they're abusive. But if you try to say why you're the one saying rude things.

[Chen]

Sure, first boyfriend. Saying anything bad about your ex means you're the one causing drama and making people take sides - even if you're genuinely afraid for your safety with him. If you can't prove it in a court of law, you're just making trouble.

That seems pretty ridiculous frankly. I mean sure if you're talking to his friends or something I could see getting that reaction. Random other people, your family or your friends though? That's a pretty bad reaction.

It's a double bind with family because you can't be less than loving unless they're abusive. But if you try to say why you're the one saying rude things.

Your family seems pretty strict on the whole decorum thing. Do they not accept any criticism at all? That might be more of the root of the problem.

I'm lucky in that my parents are fine with this type of thing. I can discuss criticisms openly without being guilted or the like. Now my grandmother on the other hand is somewhat like what I'd picture your family to be like, from what you've posted. Nothing is ever her fault, she's always the victim etc etc. I just stop engaging. Easier to do since I don't see her all that often compared to parents but realistically there's just no dealing with people like that in a way that keeps your sanity.

[Jormengand]

Calling someone out on something is indeed impolite, but there is a time for being impolite. You simply can't perform an accusation with the same grace and civility with which you perform a tea ceremony. However, that's the point. An accusation of wrongdoing is meant to interupt the prim and pretty status quo because something about the status quo is wrong, and needs to be stopped. It's possible in those instances to be impolite and unapologetic about it, and the idea that you need to resolve differences with your wrongdoers politely is what persecuted minorities like to call "tone policing".

[WarKitty]

That seems pretty ridiculous frankly. I mean sure if you're talking to his friends or something I could see getting that reaction. Random other people, your family or your friends though? That's a pretty bad reaction.

To be fair, conservative environment with stupid ideas about male and female sexuality.

Your family seems pretty strict on the whole decorum thing. Do they not accept any criticism at all? That might be more of the root of the problem.

I'm lucky in that my parents are fine with this type of thing. I can discuss criticisms openly without being guilted or the like. Now my grandmother on the other hand is somewhat like what I'd picture your family to be like, from what you've posted. Nothing is ever her fault, she's always the victim etc etc. I just stop engaging. Easier to do since I don't see her all that often compared to parents but realistically there's just no dealing with people like that in a way that keeps your sanity.

I mean, I've seen this not just from my family, but as the default reaction of pretty much any third party when the subject is my family. Which leaves you in a pretty bad position:

(1) You can be that weird person who doesn't talk about her family. Expect a lot of curiosity and trying to figure out what your deal is, because that's just weird.
(2) You can say things aren't good, but not talk about why. That defaults to you being a spoiled brat who's treating her parents badly for no reason, because if you had a good reason you'd come out and say it.
(3) You can try to explain, but then you're probably wrong because you're out there criticizing your parent and that's rude and disrespectful.

Calling someone out on something is indeed impolite, but there is a time for being impolite. You simply can't perform an accusation with the same grace and civility with which you perform a tea ceremony. However, that's the point. An accusation of wrongdoing is meant to interupt the prim and pretty status quo because something about the status quo is wrong, and needs to be stopped. It's possible in those instances to be impolite and unapologetic about it, and the idea that you need to resolve differences with your wrongdoers politely is what persecuted minorities like to call "tone policing".

Yeah, I was first advised of the concept when dealing with men who wouldn't take no for an answer. Essentially that once one has said no politely a few times, another polite person would back off. They're counting on the social structure to mean they get away with it, because they can put on a pretense of being polite while making you look like the impolite one. At some point, a direct "this is not happening, you are bothering me, now GO AWAY" is called for.

Once I got the concept I noticed it in other places. Like with ex, his narrative would be that he was so in love with me and that was why he called me so much I had to unplug the phone. I'm the one who's being mean by not answering. As I got older, I realized that normal people don't do that.

[2D8HP]

...It's a double bind with family because you can't be less than loving unless they're abusive. But if you try to say why you're the one saying rude things.

To be fair, conservative environment with stupid ideas about male and female sexuality.



I mean, I've seen this not just from my family...

More and more with each post I'm amazed that you still live near them @WarKitty, and I hate change and unfamiliar surroundings!

...but as the default reaction of pretty much any third party when the subject is my family. Which leaves you in a pretty bad position:

(1) You can be that weird person who doesn't talk about her family. Expect a lot of curiosity and trying to figure out what your deal is, because that's just weird.
(2) You can say things aren't good, but not talk about why. That defaults to you being a spoiled brat who's treating her parents badly for no reason, because if you had a good reason you'd come out and say it....

I can't help but wonder if this is about societal expectation of young women, because among my mostly middle-aged blue collar male co-workers not talking about your family is the norm and generally the assumption is that if you pry too much you will get punched.

Anyway, I've found that "Well I put my Dad's ashes in the trunk of my car" worked well to stop "How was your time off?" questions snd netted me a "Damn, your a real cowboy!" in response.

It really seems to me that people find you way too approachable, if they're talking to you like this.

Maybe go Goth?

[WarKitty]

Maybe go Goth?

*looks in closet*

*looks in makeup drawer*

*hides variety of fishnets, various unnatural colors of lipstick, black hair dye, black frilly skirts, 3 varieties of black eye shadow...ok I'm shutting up now*

[2D8HP]

black hair dye

Ha!

Your not alone.

For me it's a 1989 motorcycle license photo in which I have shoulder length black hair to remind me of what was.

[Florian]

Calling someone out on something is indeed impolite

What's considered to be im/polite is pretty much a cultural and most of all learned thing, as is shame, btw., as is the reaction when someone is called out. I must actually admit that I've grown to value how more direct, less governed by protocol or "blunt" societies work. No face to keep, no "business persona" or no "professional keeping" to mind.

[Chen]

More and more with each post I'm amazed that you still live near them @WarKitty, and I hate change and unfamiliar surroundings!

Yeah this a 100 times over. Time to move to a more progressive area. Or I suppose wait until the old people die and are replaced ideally by younger more progressive people (that tends to take a while though).

[Liquor Box]

If they're actually judging based on facts and not just snap "oh you shouldn't say that!" sure. The problem comes when the person who's "not being nice" or "causing drama" is automatically presumed to be wrong.

Most abusive people only abuse behind closed doors.

But surely the "based on facts" qualifier has to apply to the original "calling someone out" as well. And people's perception of what the facts show (or indeed, what behaviour is crappy) differs vastly. So again, if you feel free to call someone else out because you think the facts show their behaviour to be crappy, other people should be able to call you out if they disagree.

I get the distinct impression that you called someone out for acting "crappy" when others didn't think they were acting "crappy". In such a case the person who had a go at you was as justified as you were to have a go at the first person.

[The Fury]

Well...

It wasn't actually scary at all, is the thing. I just kinda... went with it. I'm not saying this to sound brave or anything, I was actually more worried about the fact that I wasn't worried. ("if it's my time, it's my time" is not the kind of thing a person should be thinking before they hit their 30s)

Yeah, I've felt like that too. Especially during some of my lowest points, though I'm not sure I should elaborate as some folks might find it triggering.

Cuz like... not only was the brain tumor probably messing with my head, but the idea of having your brain operated on is a lot less visceral than getting an operation in your hand. The brain has no sense of touch (which makes me wonder how headaches work) so you can't actually FEEL brain surgery, even if you ignore that there'd be anaesthesia. Sure, I could die, but I also know that having a knife in my brain is something I can't physically feel.

But everyone can picture what it feels like to have a knife in your hand. It's a heck of a lot scarier. And the metal plate I've got in my head is weird enough on my head.

Maybe? I'd joke that I need my hands more than I need my brain and can largely get by without the latter, but in honest truth I'm not sure how I'd even talk to my family or friends about needing a brain operation. A hand is a little different, most people have an easy time accepting that bones break sometimes but they heal. Brain tumors are comparatively poorly understood which leaves plenty of room for family and friends to start panicking which would make accepting what's happening to me difficult. Then, that's the kind of relationship I have with my family. Hopefully you're a little luckier like that.

Regardless, whatever emotional problems I had just seemed to vanish for months afterward. Enjoy it while it lasts, mate.

I'll try to. I still deal with frustrations at not being able to do things that require having two hands, which I never really thought about until I couldn't do them. Then there's pain management... which has been weirdly pretty easy. I've been wondering if this is because I've been living with depression and not really medicating for so long. It's almost a meme that depression hurts but it does, so much so that I've learned to accept a certain level of near constant pain is normal. I'm not saying this to be gloomy, I'm more wondering if anyone else has ever noticed anything similar.

[WarKitty]

But surely the "based on facts" qualifier has to apply to the original "calling someone out" as well. And people's perception of what the facts show (or indeed, what behaviour is crappy) differs vastly. So again, if you feel free to call someone else out because you think the facts show their behaviour to be crappy, other people should be able to call you out if they disagree.

I get the distinct impression that you called someone out for acting "crappy" when others didn't think they were acting "crappy". In such a case the person who had a go at you was as justified as you were to have a go at the first person.

The trouble is you're not trying to "call someone out", you're trying to protect yourself, and the message from every single section of society I've been in is if you have the bad luck to deal with abusive people, unless you can 100% prove everything in a court of law you are a horrible person who deserves to be ostracized if you have the absolute unmitigated gall to not smile and assure people that whatever the abuser did is completely ok with you. Even if you've actually been sexually assaulted, if you were in a dating relationship you are STILL the one causing drama if you don't pretend everything is ok. With parents, basically any parent who managed to feed and clothe their child without getting arrested is a good parent. "Emotional abuse" is just a term whiny special snowflakes who want to be mean because their parents didn't buy them a car come up with.

I've told people the stories here - I think others can summarize them well enough. I think the best one was being chased around the house shaking from stress because my mom had been talking about how awful my dad was for 2 hours already. She wasn't done and she was yelling at me about how selfish I was being for not staying to talk longer, even though we'd been having multi-hour conversations nearly every day and I was telling her I couldn't handle the stress. Her solution was that I could tell her how I felt too and that would make it better and somehow not end with me getting yelled at. I can guarantee from knowing her that it would have ended with me getting yelled at. But at the same time, if I'm at work and I don't show excitement to spend holiday time with my family, I'm the weird entitled ungrateful brat.

I think what often happens is people don't listen, they just react. And they react to the fact that you are the one there making things uncomfortable, while the other person isn't doing anything that they have to deal with. They react first to the disruption of social order. They reinterpret what you say to fit a model that doesn't involve extreme situations, even if they don't know the other person at all.

It's that last bit that I'm complaining about. That it seems people, as a general rule, don't listen and make judgment calls. They assign roles based on what relationships the people have and who's being the one making a fuss, and then filter through that lens. With parents, I've often had the feeling that anything I say is being filtered through the lens of "how would I feel if my child said that about me?" And a normal parent would be hurt and angry, and because they would be hurt and angry they decide it's a mean, nasty thing to say, and therefore the person saying it can't be telling the truth. The trouble is sometimes there are parents who actually do mean things. The person you're talking to probably isn't one of them, and they're imaging the person you're talking about is like them in ways that aren't actually the case.

[Chen]

It's that last bit that I'm complaining about. That it seems people, as a general rule, don't listen and make judgment calls. They assign roles based on what relationships the people have and who's being the one making a fuss, and then filter through that lens. With parents, I've often had the feeling that anything I say is being filtered through the lens of "how would I feel if my child said that about me?" And a normal parent would be hurt and angry, and because they would be hurt and angry they decide it's a mean, nasty thing to say, and therefore the person saying it can't be telling the truth. The trouble is sometimes there are parents who actually do mean things. The person you're talking to probably isn't one of them, and they're imaging the person you're talking about is like them in ways that aren't actually the case.

Saying that people do that as a general rule is ridiculous. You got NONE of that kind of response here when you posted those things. I mean honestly as mentioned above you appear to be living in a very insular and conservative area when you yourself are neither of those things. That's clearly going to lead to basically irreconcilable conflicts, similar to the ones you're mentioning here.

[WarKitty]

Saying that people do that as a general rule is ridiculous. You got NONE of that kind of response here when you posted those things. I mean honestly as mentioned above you appear to be living in a very insular and conservative area when you yourself are neither of those things. That's clearly going to lead to basically irreconcilable conflicts, similar to the ones you're mentioning here.

I guess I feel like here is the exception to the rule? I mean, I've lived in multiple areas, none of which I would describe as insular or conservative, and I've found that sort of response is the default in most places, including ones considered extremely liberal. I honestly wouldn't describe where I live now as either of those things.

[AMFV]

I guess I feel like here is the exception to the rule? I mean, I've lived in multiple areas, none of which I would describe as insular or conservative, and I've found that sort of response is the default in most places, including ones considered extremely liberal. I honestly wouldn't describe where I live now as either of those things.

I think it might be that what you're experiencing is a culture that is anti-calling people out in public. I've lived in both kinds of cultures. And outside of the most extreme liberal areas, like NY, San Diego, and US colleges, in the US culture frowns heavily on airing private business in public.

Like when people say "How is your family" or "have you talked to your mother lately". They don't want to know how your family is, they don't give a crap if you've talked to your mom, they are not asking for that. It's like when somebody says "How are you" and you go into a fifteen minute rant about what is going wrong with your life. That's not what is socially acceptable in most parts of the US, at least in our cultural paradigm.

"They're fine" is the right answer, and "I've been meaning to but I'm so busy with work." Is the right answer for the second. Both of them don't involve any need for somebody to listen to you talk about people's personal lives in public. Also unless you are directly asking for help, in most places in the US, it is considered extremely rude to do that sort of thing. So people who you ask are assuming that you are asking them for help, and in that case they do probably want some kind of evidence that what you are saying is true, unless they're close enough friends to take you at your word, and since they probably aren't they see it as you asking for help in defaming or attacking another person, without evidence, and that is something we frown on.

[Chen]

I guess I feel like here is the exception to the rule? I mean, I've lived in multiple areas, none of which I would describe as insular or conservative, and I've found that sort of response is the default in most places, including ones considered extremely liberal. I honestly wouldn't describe where I live now as either of those things.

If you mean with random strangers or work acquaintances then I do agree with AMFV that it'd be more stuff you don't generally talk to these people about. But from what you were saying it seemed to imply it was friends and other family members that you were getting this from too (when say talking about your ex). And hence the conclusion being drawn that there's clearly some other culture, in the area, that's causing that type of response from people.

I used here as an example, but its only because that's the only example that I have in common with you, what with not really knowing who you are. I've already said, anecdotally that I've never experienced that type of response to a similar type of complaint and I'm fairly sure most of my circle of friends haven't either. I mean we bitch to each other about our families and friends and girlfriends and wives and the like and it's taken in stride. Sure sometimes you may disagree with a friend or co-workers position and generally that results in either a discussion or people just drop it if it ends up feeling awkward. Blaming the person who is complaining happens on occasion but more for the real out there things (and to the friends who lack a good filter).

[WarKitty]

I think it might be that what you're experiencing is a culture that is anti-calling people out in public. I've lived in both kinds of cultures. And outside of the most extreme liberal areas, like NY, San Diego, and US colleges, in the US culture frowns heavily on airing private business in public.

Like when people say "How is your family" or "have you talked to your mother lately". They don't want to know how your family is, they don't give a crap if you've talked to your mom, they are not asking for that. It's like when somebody says "How are you" and you go into a fifteen minute rant about what is going wrong with your life. That's not what is socially acceptable in most parts of the US, at least in our cultural paradigm.

"They're fine" is the right answer, and "I've been meaning to but I'm so busy with work." Is the right answer for the second. Both of them don't involve any need for somebody to listen to you talk about people's personal lives in public. Also unless you are directly asking for help, in most places in the US, it is considered extremely rude to do that sort of thing. So people who you ask are assuming that you are asking them for help, and in that case they do probably want some kind of evidence that what you are saying is true, unless they're close enough friends to take you at your word, and since they probably aren't they see it as you asking for help in defaming or attacking another person, without evidence, and that is something we frown on.

I mean, maybe, but also like I've found the second sort of reply gets you a lecture on how you really should make more time for your family. You're a bad person who's working too much and doesn't spend time with her parents.

I think some of the awkwardness is that family is considered safe water cooler talk. So it's really not at the level where people want to hear more, but at the same time it's at the level where it becomes really obvious and awkward if you're avoiding the subject. And that's bad and that invites people to pry because you're being weird and different.

I've also noticed overall that when it comes to actual resources, there's resources for (minor) children dealing with parents, and there's resources for people dealing with partner violence. But the overall attitude is still that adult children can't need help, and I was specifically told there were no resources for me. Like, when I actually tried to see if there was any sort of financial help or shelter if I needed it, the answer was no because adult children can just leave if there's any issue.

As far as the ex...again, there's a lot of social navigation. You've been going to the same events, and you don't really have separate friend groups, so realistically you can either tell people, you can just stop talking to all your friends, or you can keep seeing him at everything.

[Chen]

I mean, maybe, but also like I've found the second sort of reply gets you a lecture on how you really should make more time for your family. You're a bad person who's working too much and doesn't spend time with her parents.

I think some of the awkwardness is that family is considered safe water cooler talk. So it's really not at the level where people want to hear more, but at the same time it's at the level where it becomes really obvious and awkward if you're avoiding the subject. And that's bad and that invites people to pry because you're being weird and different.

Are these significantly older co-workers? I'm picturing the old curmudgeony man or the old nagging grandmother type who would be the only ones to start nagging you about not spending enough time with your family, AT WORK.

I've also noticed overall that when it comes to actual resources, there's resources for (minor) children dealing with parents, and there's resources for people dealing with partner violence. But the overall attitude is still that adult children can't need help, and I was specifically told there were no resources for me. Like, when I actually tried to see if there was any sort of financial help or shelter if I needed it, the answer was no because adult children can just leave if there's any issue.

Well there's aren't specific "adult children" resources aside from standard "adult" resources. I mean all adults are SOMEONE's children. I imagine there are family therapists though that deal with adult children and their relationships with their parents. In terms of financial helps/shelter wouldn't that just be a standard homeless shelter though? I would hope an abusive home life would be sufficient for you to get into one of those rather than them saying something like "no you have to stay at your parents' house". That said, I have heard that in a lot of the US the social safety net is pretty poor.

As far as the ex...again, there's a lot of social navigation. You've been going to the same events, and you don't really have separate friend groups, so realistically you can either tell people, you can just stop talking to all your friends, or you can keep seeing him at everything.

Fair. That they would take his side over yours in a case of abuse does at least have the silver lining of you now knowing they're also bad people and you not needing to deal with them anymore. Still a ****ty situation to be in though.