Vampires and tactical options

[pendell]

Okay, as of strip 1086, we know we are facing four Vampires. At least one , possibly two, are double-digit class levels in cleric, while the other two are probably midlevel (6th? 7th?).

To oppose this, we have the OOTS.

If you are Roy, how do you plan this battle? In particular, how do you make use of characters such as Elan who could be dominated, and also may not be able to overcome a vampire's DR?

Then turn the table from the other side: What is the best way for the Vampires to fight this battle?

I'm interested in what our wargaming/geekery contingent can come up with. Show us your stuff!

ETA: Also, internet cookies to whoever correctly predicts how the throwdown plays out.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Goblin_Priest]

DR? Isn't it, like, 5/silver? At their level, they should be able to just brute force it. With the level differential, I have a hard time seeing it being even a remotely fair fight. Team Hel would need good preparation to make up for this disadvantage.

[pendell]

DR? Isn't it, like, 5/silver? At their level, they should be able to just brute force it. With the level differential, I have a hard time seeing it being even a remotely fair fight. Team Hel would need good preparation to make up for this disadvantage.

There's another issue as well, I think. None of the vampires have coffins, do they? So if they are reduced to 0 hp, they turn to mist but have no coffin to return to and recuperate in. They'll be destroyed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Random Sanity]

DR? Isn't it, like, 5/silver? At their level, they should be able to just brute force it. With the level differential, I have a hard time seeing it being even a remotely fair fight. Team Hel would need good preparation to make up for this disadvantage.

Elan doesn't have a weapon to do it with, though.

Also, the vampires can heal themselves/each other pretty much at will, whereas the Order collectively only has a handful of spell slots available for healing. The longer the fight drags out, the more the advantage will slide toward Team Hel, and that's before you take potential dominations into account. Roy is unusually resistant for his class, and Vaarsuvius has a solid Will save - but Elan and Haley are one second of eye contact each away from dancing on puppet strings, and Belkar needs to subject himself to constant harm to avoid joining them.

[pendell]

Elan doesn't have a weapon to do it with, though.

What about that Chaos Saber Julio loaned him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[goodpeople25]

DR 5 is for spawn, full vampires have DR 10. Of course the question then is if any of the weaker ones are spawns, how many creeders would have had 4 or less HD to start with and then how many would have survived the culling to get here. (I somewhat doubt they went for energy drains to not get full vampires, but it's possible)

Combat wise (though I have no practical experience) I think DR and cold resistance plus undead traits coupled with healing and fast healing could make this hinge on mostly just V and Roy in a damage race, but that's at the others worst. (And me lowballing due to not knowing that much about damage) Elan and Haley have spells to burst (heh) out and Elan and Belkar I'm not exactly sure on what they have in damage (What the Chaos Saber does as well as his puns not being a sure thing and if Belkar is hindered by his protection or has a favoured enemy boost.) But really I don't think either side should make this close to a damage contest or fair fight. So yeah dominations, (and tricks to combat it) attrition, (I don't think the order has negative level help except maybe Roy?) ambushes, focused attacks, other vampire abilites, anyway to bring sunlight into/out of the equation ect, ect.

[Random Sanity]

What about that Chaos Saber Julio loaned him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You mean the one that got launched into open space when Roy nearly went overboard dealing with the giantess? Unless it has the same returning property as Roy's ancestral sword, it's still at the bottom of that box canyon.

[goodpeople25]

You mean the one that got launched into open space when Roy nearly went overboard dealing with the giantess? Unless it has the same returning property as Roy's ancestral sword, it's still at the bottom of that box canyon.

No, pretty sure that is random behind the door pirate sword, you can see the differences in that one and Elan's saber around the #1070 mark. (Not sure if/where to find a new art-style chaos saber outside this fight, but you can see it in the old around #930)

(Also general frustration at the mention of the returning property, but that's on me)

[goto124]

and Belkar needs to subject himself to constant harm to avoid joining them.

I kept hearing that Belkar now has protection from Domination. If it refers to the Protection From Evil ring he bought at the shop, he indeed can't wear it without getting hurt, which rather confused me...

If Belkar actually bought that ring, can't he give it to Elan or Haley?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

You mean the one that got launched into open space when Roy nearly went overboard dealing with the giantess? Unless it has the same returning property as Roy's ancestral sword, it's still at the bottom of that box canyon.

Elan drew his sabre to cut the rope in #1070 so he could swing down and heal Roy, he's still holding it when he casts Confusion and runs after the giantess, but he's no longer holding it in #1073 when chasing back down the Mechane's deck after her, so presumably he sheathed it again.

Vampires DR is negated by silver and magic, plus the Chaos Sabre does extra damage against lawful creatures, which may mean some of the vampires (including Durkula) are taking extra damage. Plus he's got the cure wounds wand to potentially cherry tap them.

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster.

Haley and V can potentially reuse Pointy Death Incarnate to allow Haley to get sneak attacks, although given Hel was watching the fight with the Frost Giants, Durkula or one of the others is probably getting Invisibility Purge in his nightly spells (and the order's arriving after spell refresh), so it may not last. Haley's also got the selection of wands to use, although the Adamantine dagger's no extra help.

Assuming the IFCC don't burn one of their time outs, V's got Forcecage and Resilent Sphere, which can potentially take some of the vampires out of the fight.

[Goblin_Priest]

So DR 10/silver+magic and fast healing 5 for the full vampires? Big whoop.

There are four vampires. One of them is high level, but despite all these buffs he wasn't exactly overwhelming Roy. One of them is probably highish level, though presumably lower level than Durkon*. The two others, I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if they were low leveled, perhaps even low enough to be mere spawns.

Against: Roy, V, Elan, Haley, and Belkar, 5 high level adventurers, who are at least the same level as the vampires' highest level cleric.

Just the numbers makes a huge difference, 5vs4. The levels too. Vampires have no constitution modifier to HP, which becomes increasingly problematic at high levels (where you'd expect living characters to have HP(/con) boosting feats and magical items). Add on top of that the HD differential, then the order has way larger a HP pool, which I'd say is even better than the DR and fast healing.

The HD differential has many effects. With blast spells, V's will ignore all of that DR, whereas the clerics' will be targeting a larger pool of HP. And with all spells, the order's saves and DCs will be higher than the vampires'. The vampires' spells also have less powerful effects, both as limited by spell level and by caster level. A CL 10 Flame Strike doesn't dish out the same damage as a CL15+ Cone of Cold, even if they use the same spell level slot. Even when considering cold resistance (or electricity resistance for Chain Lightning, though empowered fireballs would be an even simpler fix).

Remember "Xykon is feeling chilly tonight", out in the desert? If all five of the order focused on Durkon*, he probably wouldn't last more than two or three rounds, if even one. With him gone, the rest become free willed, and will likely flee, or otherwise be easy to deal with.

Now, let's be clear, this is all assuming a simple fight with no surprise and no pre-buffing over a large flat battleground. I don't expect things to turn out like this in comic, because it'd make for an underwhelming (anti-)climax. I expect team vampire to have some tricks up its sleeves, but in an arena-style versus? They'd stand no chance.

[Goblin_Priest]

Elan drew his sabre to cut the rope in #1070 so he could swing down and heal Roy, he's still holding it when he casts Confusion and runs after the giantess, but he's no longer holding it in #1073 when chasing back down the Mechane's deck after her, so presumably he sheathed it again.

Vampires DR is negated by silver and magic, plus the Chaos Sabre does extra damage against lawful creatures, which may mean some of the vampires (including Durkula) are taking extra damage. Plus he's got the cure wounds wand to potentially cherry tap them.

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster.

Haley and V can potentially reuse Pointy Death Incarnate to allow Haley to get sneak attacks, although given Hel was watching the fight with the Frost Giants, Durkula or one of the others is probably getting Invisibility Purge in his nightly spells (and the order's arriving after spell refresh), so it may not last. Haley's also got the selection of wands to use, although the Adamantine dagger's no extra help.

Assuming the IFCC don't burn one of their time outs, V's got Forcecage and Resilent Sphere, which can potentially take some of the vampires out of the fight.

Can't sneak attack undead in 3.5 iirc. You can still ready attacks for when they try to cast spells, though, to force concentration checks. Or just pepper them with arrows despite lacking the extra damage.

Silver arrows are cheap, too.

[pendell]

If part of the IFC's plan is to assist Hel in ending the world, they will call in their marker. 23 minutes -- round up to 24 minutes -- a turn is ten minutes, and a round is six seconds? So we're looking at him being out for about 240 rounds.

So. Let's assume we fight this battle with Vaarsuvius out. We have Roy with his sword, haley with her arrows, Belkar with his daggers, Elan with his saber and prestige class. The critical issue I'm seeing is that, unless we can find some way to get Haley and Elan some immunity to mind-affecting, the only person we can really count on in this fight is Roy.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

On the downside, Elan vs vampiric domination will probably be something akin to the life expectancy of a prawn cracker vs a sandblaster.

Or will he do that "I'm so stupid, me trying to follow Domination orders somehow loops back around to being helpful to the OotS" gimmick? I mean he's no Belkar in terms of combat proficiency, and he really cares about 2 out of those 4. Which IIRC gives him another save if he's ordered to attack them.

[pendell]

Here's another tactical observation: The High Priest is fixated on Roy .

In that panel he decided against the tactically smart thing to do in order to engage Roy in combat, precisely because he hates Roy. Absolutely loathes and despises him.

That isn't the only time. Hel specifically warned him that she doesn't care at all whether Roy lives or dies. But the vampire leader is absolutely determined to have a climactic duel with Roy even if it isn't tactically sound.

Odd, that. Aren't vampires supposed to inherit the original host's stats, with plusses to things like Int? I can't see the original Durkon letting his passions get the better of him to this extent.

In any event, it does seem like Roy may be able to make use of that somehow; get the vampires to focus on and attack him, rather than doing something more important like say, actually dominating the council of elders.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sprütche]

Can Elan use his song of freedom to break Belkar or some dwarves out of domination? Girard's illusion and vampire domination both create swirley eyes.

[pendell]

By SRD, Vampire dominate functions equivalent to the Spell Dominate Person, so Song of Freedom, which functions as Break Enchantment, should be sufficient to dispel the dominion.

Unless Elan himself is dominated, of course. A challenge not akin to smashing a glass jar with a rock

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jasdoif]

I suspect I'm going to mess something up with this...but it might be fun to try anyway

---

Step one: what levels am I going to guess comprise our Vampiric Cabal?

• HPoH, whose attempt to cast the 7th-level destruction puts him at least at 13th level.
• The Token Non-Dwarf Vampire (TNDV), whose greater dispel magic puts her at least at 11th level.
• The Exarch, who we don't have any real basis for other than a mention of high-level slots....
  • OK, I see ten incoming vampires here, so if I were to assume all but TNDV were vampire spawn, that'd make 47 HD of vampires; and if I were to assume they were all created by HPoH or the Exarch (explaining why HPoH needed the Exarch) that'd require 24 levels between them to keep them enslaved, and HPoH I already gave 13...so sure, the Exarch also has 11 cleric levels.
• The Vampire That Stands Alone (VTSA) is a vampire spawn under the above assumption, and thus has 4 hit dice and has no cleric spellcasting.

Works for me....


Now I'm assuming that retreat is exactly as a bad as a loss (so dispatching HPoH after the Gate isn't viable), and that if actually defeating the OotS isn't an option than weakening them as much as possible is still the goal. As in, even though this looks like a losing battle for the Vampiric Cabal, maximizing their chances of success is still the goal.


So the first order of business is obvious: remove Vaarsuvius, who can reliably one-shot vampires from range with distintegrate, and could wipe out VTSA while damaging everyone else with a basic fireball.

An ambush is of course preferable on that point, since it would be ideal to deny Vaarsvuius the chance to wreak any vampires. So for opening, ideally as a surprise round....

• HPoH: Destruction cast on Vaarsuvius. Fort save or die (and be really hard to resurrect), still does a small bunch of damage on a failed save, and works outside melee range.
• TNDV/Exarch: Flame strike on Vaarsuvius, if necessary. Bunch of damage, Reflex save for half, possiblity to hit multiple targets. Frankly, if it wasn't for the level difference I'd prefer greater dispel magic in case Vaarsuvius had defensive spells up; but the level difference pushes the chance of successful dispelling so far down it doesn't make sense.
• VTSA (or if available, TNDV/Exarch): Dominate Belkar, if not already dominated. HPoH has seen Belkar use his protection from evil item; he knows it's not constantly on. Even if HPoH doesn't know precisely what it does, dominating Belkar before he has a chance to activate it makes sense.
• If available, TNDV/Exarch: Dominate Elan. It's a tossup between Elan and Haley, really; but if Elan gets off inspire courage then everyone in the Order gets a boost on attacks and saving throws for at least five rounds.

If they're lucky, they've taken out Vaarsuvius by this point and they get to go first again in the next round of combat thanks the Improved Initiative bonus feat vampires (including vampire spawn) get....Because every action the Order gets brings the Cabal closer to defeat; Roy already showed he can fight HPoH into a retreat one-on-one back at the Godsmoot, and Roy has a much better entourage.

HPoH will move to engage Roy at this point...largely because HPoH hates Roy with a passion, but also because Roy could mop the floor with any of the others if given the chance.

Standing recommendations for the rest:

• Keeping the rest of the Order dominated is supremely unlikely, with the new save given for forcing them to take actions against their nature; but it's at-will, turns the Order's strength against them, and VTSA has nothing better to do (unless Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy let her initiate a grapple, possibly).
  
  • If Elan's dominated, having him use lesser confusion on undominated members of the Order, or greater dispel magic against Roy's/Haley's weapon, is probably the best use of him. If Vaarsuvius is still alive, using greater dispel magic against Vaarsuvius takes priority.
  • Everyone else who's been dominated should be ordered to attack Roy.
• Flame strike should only be used on Vaarsuvius or when multiple targets can be hit; Haley, Belkar, Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy all have evasion or improved evasion by this point. If finishing any of them off at range after harm leaves them at one hit point, spontaneously converting it to mass inflict light wounds will bypass evasion and do at least 6 damage even on a passed save.
• Desecrate gives undead like vampires a small boost on their attacks and saving throws in an area. If they end up with nothing better to do with their actions or 2nd-level slots, handing a bonus to HPoH is an option.

---

By SRD, Vampire dominate functions equivalent to the Spell Dominate Person, so Song of Freedom, which functions as Break Enchantment, should be sufficient to dispel the dominion.

Absolutely. Song of freedom takes one minute to use though, making it rather ineffective in the middle of combat.

[goto124]

Wait, Song of Freedom is RAW? I thought that panel was just a joke!

[The MunchKING]

Wait, Song of Freedom is RAW? I thought that panel was just a joke!

Oh no, it is totally a real thing.

[pendell]

I suspect I'm going to mess something up with this...but it might be fun to try anyway

Excellent analysis, and just what I was looking for. Question, though: Where do the other six vampires come from? They don't have the staff any more, so I don't think they can quicken the rising of those they killed short of the three day period.

They could bring in a planar ally or two, though, if they were willing to burn a spell slot to do so. What does an extra fiend add to this calculation?

So the first order of business is obvious: remove Vaarsuvius, who can reliably one-shot vampires from range with distintegrate, and could wipe out VTSA while damaging everyone else with a basic fireball.

An ambush is of course preferable on that point, since it would be ideal to deny Vaarsvuius the chance to wreak any vampires. So for opening, ideally as a surprise round....

[list][*]HPoH: Destruction cast on Vaarsuvius. Fort save or die (and be really hard to resurrect), still does a small bunch of damage on a failed save, and works outside melee range.

What about anti-magic field? To paraphrase mama black dragon, in an AMF field an elven wizard is a silly little monkey in a robe, while vampires are still vampires.
Does Roy's ancestral weapon retain it's magical properties in an AMF?

If the vampires retain their vampire abilities while the OOTS lacks any way to overcome vampiric damage reduction, then an AMF would seem to be the way to go.

Problem with this strategy is that AMF is Cleric 8, so the vampires can't just be granted it. Perhaps one of the dwarves has a wand or an artifact that will generate one? Or maybe there's an AMF field in the fortress that original-Durkon will know about?

• VTSA (or if available, TNDV/Exarch): Dominate Belkar, if not already dominated. HPoH has seen Belkar use his protection from evil item; he knows it's not constantly on. Even if HPoH doesn't know precisely what it does, dominating Belkar before he has a chance to activate it makes sense.
• If available, TNDV/Exarch: Dominate Elan. It's a tossup between Elan and Haley, really; but if Elan gets off inspire courage then everyone in the Order gets a boost on attacks and saving throws for at least five rounds.

If this is the case then I submit that dominating the weak-minded should be their first move. Have them under control before they even know combat has started. Then have them make their attack from inside the party at the same time we hit Vaarsuvius.

Would it make sense to hit BOTH Roy and Vaarsuvius in the surprise round? Or is that dividing our attentions and wasting our energy? The reason I ask is that part of the reason Roy won in the temple was because he could use his anti-spellcaster feat against the HPOH in close-range melee combat. If the HPOH can zap Greg from range, before he can use his feat, or co-ordinate a multiple aspect attack where Roy can't block them all, this is going to be a much tougher fight for the order.

So how about this plan:

Before combat starts: Set up a situation where you can sneakily get eye contact with all the heroes before they are aware of it. Establish eye contact and dominate Elan, Belkar, and Haley.
Round 1: Plane Shift Vaarsuvius. One round save-or-suck, and we already know he failed against Zz'dtri.
Rounds 2..N: Converge and attack Roy from multiple aspects. Hit by casters from all directions and attacked by the rest of the now-Dominated Order, Roy will soon fall. Then the OOTS becomes the Order of the Fang.

I kinda hope that Rich can give us a what-if cutaway panel (not the real in comic thing; a dream sequence or possible future) with the entire order as vampires. They'd look cool, I think.

If the initial plan fails and Vaarsuvius remains in the fight, use change to mist to evade Roy's melee attacks while using bat-form to close to melee with Vaarsuvius. Once in melee with a wizard V will be neutralized in short order. Then it's back to the multiple-casters-engaging-one-fighter from range.

Plan 2: Guerrilla warfare. Before the actual battle starts, find pretexts to dominate and attrit the weak-minded by compelling them to do something foolish. Then withdraw to another prepared position and do it again until the party is down to only V and Roy. Problem with this plan is that the heroes know what's happening after the first attack, so they've got to hit Belkar first.

Standing recommendations for the rest:

• Keeping the rest of the Order dominated is supremely unlikely, with the new save given for forcing them to take actions against their nature; but it's at-will, turns the Order's strength against them, and VTSA has nothing better to do (unless Blackwing or Mr. Scruffy let her initiate a grapple, possibly).

What if you tell them to just sit on their hands and take no action except those specifically ordered? Would that be against their nature?


From the other side of the table, the most important thing the order has to do is defeat those domination effects. Belkar has his toy, what about Elan and Haley? They're going to need protection as well, will they not? Protection from Evil is a Wiz 1 spell; can V cast it?

Really great thoughts here, Jasdoif. Thanks.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Um... I don't know what happened with that last post. I'm going to clean it up after I have the mods look at it. Some kind of format error?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know what you did here, but I'm blaming Hel.

[137beth]

I suspect I'm going to mess something up with this...but it might be fun to try anyway
Now I'm assuming that retreat is exactly as a bad as a loss (so dispatching HPoH after the Gate isn't viable), and that if actually defeating the OotS isn't an option than weakening them as much as possible is still the goal. As in, even though this looks like a losing battle for the Vampiric Cabal, maximizing their chances of success is still the goal.

Of the assumptions you've made, I think this one is the least likely to be true. Dominating the dwarf council is Hel's plan B. I can completely see that if it fails, her Plan C will be to send HPoH to destroy the gate. Once the last gate is destroyed, the remaining gods may decide to destroy the world anyways, and so Hel will still win. Now that the other Northern gods know Hel's plan, some of the good gods may want to make a last-ditch effort to save the world, but they may still view the Snarl as a bigger threat, the evil gods probably wouldn't care, and the fact that the world is much closer to being unmade by the Snarl would probably sway several previous no-votes to yes.
Even in the unlikely event that a majority of the Northern pantheon still decides to keep the world after the last gate is destroyed just to stop Hel from gaining more power, she only needs two pantheons to vote Yes for the world to be destroyed. I doubt the Western or Southern gods would care about Hel's plan, since ultimately all she wants to do is reshuffle power within the Northern pantheon. So Hel may well expect that if the last gate is destroyed, she can count on at least the two other pantheons to vote to destroy the world, giving her dominance in the Northern pantheon in the next game world.

[Jasdoif]

Question, though: Where do the other six vampires come from? They don't have the staff any more, so I don't think they can quicken the rising of those they killed short of the three day period.

I mentioned the ten vampires at the Godsmoot as the basis for my guess of the Exarch's level. (I believe the others have dissipated at this point, being coffinless and it having been more than an hour since the Godsmoot).

They could bring in a planar ally or two, though, if they were willing to burn a spell slot to do so. What does an extra fiend add to this calculation?

Convincing a fiend to risk its own existence would be the biggest issue, I suspect.

If the vampires retain their vampire abilities while the OOTS lacks any way to overcome vampiric damage reduction, then an AMF would seem to be the way to go.

That's just it, though. Even if I'm underestimating HPoH and he's got eighth-level spells for it....A vampire's dominate, energy drain, alternate form, damage reduction, fast healing, and gaseous form are all supernatural abilites (marked with "(Su)" in the template); they don't function in an antimagic field. To say nothing of their own spellcasting....It'd certainly mess with Vaarsuvius, but make Roy and Belkar's job a lot easier.

Would it make sense to hit BOTH Roy and Vaarsuvius in the surprise round? Or is that dividing our attentions and wasting our energy? The reason I ask is that part of the reason Roy won in the temple was because he could use his anti-spellcaster feat against the HPOH in close-range melee combat. If the HPOH can zap Greg from range, before he can use his feat, or co-ordinate a multiple aspect attack where Roy can't block them all, this is going to be a much tougher fight for the order.

If Roy and Vaarsuvius are positioned where flame strike could hit them both, sure. Otherwise...well, disintegrate has a good chance of removing any of the vampires all the way down from full health with a single cast. Including HPoH. It's a severe risk.

Plane Shift Vaarsuvius. One round save-or-suck, and we already know he failed against Zz'dtri.

Save-or-lose, really; but it's a Will-negates spell with a touch range, and Vaarsuvius is going to have a high Will save and does a lot of flying these days. If an opportunity does exist to attack from the floor or ceiling, slay living would be a better choice against Vaarsuvius for the same slot.

Converge and attack Roy from multiple aspects. Hit by casters from all directions and attacked by the rest of the now-Dominated Order, Roy will soon fall. Then the OOTS becomes the Order of the Fang.

That would be the general approach once Roy's effectively the only member of the Order, yes.

Once in melee with a wizard V will be neutralized in short order.

That would depend on how Vaarsuvius' Concentration check is, really. Not to mention getting that far would be a challenge; a vampire's alternate form and gaseous form are both standard actions so they can't start flying and attack/grapple/cast-at Vaarsuvius in the same round.

What if you tell them to just sit on their hands and take no action except those specifically ordered? Would that be against their nature?

"Do nothing while we kill the rest of the Order" might be OK with Belkar, but it wouldn't go over well with Haley or Elan. Better to have them contribute to the overall battle and/or deplete their own resources instead, I'd think.

From the other side of the table, the most important thing the order has to do is defeat those domination effects. Belkar has his toy, what about Elan and Haley? They're going to need protection as well, will they not? Protection from Evil is a Wiz 1 spell; can V cast it?

Yes, but it's also one target and one minute per level, so Vaarsuvius would have to cast it around twenty times per hour to keep coverage up. Its big brother magic circle against evil could work though...In that case, opening with the area version of greater dispel magic would be called for rather than one of the flame strikes. I'd still have low bets on its overall effectiveness; but with enough potential targets and the value of dominating, it's still worthwhile. (Neither spell actually prevents domination from hitting, but it stops control from being exercised; so in a downhill struggle dominating them before dispelling the magic circle/protection could still work).

Now I'm assuming that retreat is exactly as a bad as a loss (so dispatching HPoH after the Gate isn't viable), and that if actually defeating the OotS isn't an option than weakening them as much as possible is still the goal. As in, even though this looks like a losing battle for the Vampiric Cabal, maximizing their chances of success is still the goal.

Of the assumptions you've made, I think this one is the least likely to be true. Dominating the dwarf council is Hel's plan B. I can completely see that if it fails, her Plan C will be to send HPoH to destroy the gate. Once the last gate is destroyed, the remaining gods may decide to destroy the world anyways, and so Hel will still win.

Oh absolutely, I've been pushing that view myself for months.

But without that assumption, the battle looks a lot like "TNDV, VSTA and the Exarch are efficiently slaughtered because HPoH is going after the Gate and left them as a distraction; and they don't have enough power to really expect to inconvenience the Order", which kind of defeats the purpose of outlining the tactics

[Goblin_Priest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't V cast anti-magic field on the familiar, and send it flying to the vampires? It would completely neutralize the vampires as they get hacked to bits by the OotS.

[Jasdoif]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't V cast anti-magic field on the familiar, and send it flying to the vampires? It would completely neutralize the vampires as they get hacked to bits by the OotS.

Antimagic field is a 10-foot-radius field that follows the caster around, so casting it "on" something doesn't even make sense. Even if it did, and share spells with familiar was in play, it'd stop once Blackwing got more than five feet away from Vaarsuvius.

Even if it did, Blackwing's durability is severely lacking, with 50% as many hit points and 0% as many spells as Vaarsuvius; you're looking at a smashed raven and a lot of lost XP for Vaarsuvius at that point.

[The MunchKING]

What if you tell them to just sit on their hands and take no action except those specifically ordered? Would that be against their nature?

Belkar REALLY likes killin' things.

That said he can put up with it when he has to.

From the other side of the table, the most important thing the order has to do is defeat those domination effects. Belkar has his toy, what about Elan and Haley? They're going to need protection as well, will they not? Protection from Evil is a Wiz 1 spell; can V cast it?

If it's in her book. She's cast loads of other Abjurations, so game mechanics wise there's nothing from stopping her.

That's just it, though. Even if I'm underestimating HPoH and he's got eighth-level spells for it....A vampire's dominate, energy drain, alternate form, damage reduction, fast healing, and gaseous form are all supernatural abilites (marked with "(Su)" in the template); they don't function in an antimagic field. To say nothing of their own spellcasting....It'd certainly mess with Vaarsuvius, but make Roy and Belkar's job a lot easier.

I was going to point that out. That said, it would also stop everyone's magic weapons, and Roy's stat boosting gear.

That would depend on how Vaarsuvius' Concentration check is, really. Not to mention getting that far would be a challenge; a vampire's alternate form and gaseous form are both standard actions so they can't start flying and attack/grapple/cast-at Vaarsuvius in the same round.

She's also OK at casting defensively.

"Do nothing while we kill the rest of the Order" might be OK with Belkar, but it wouldn't go over well with Haley or Elan. Better to have them contribute to the overall battle and/or deplete their own resources instead, I'd think.

I wonder if it could get around Haley's resistance the same way Tsukino got around Thanh's? Just tell her "steal the Magic items from the fighter" or something, and neglect to mention the Fighter in question is Roy.

Yes, but it's also one target and one minute per level, so Vaarsuvius would have to cast it around twenty times per hour to keep coverage up.

Well it would be something you'd want to deploy right before the battle if at all possible.

[Goblin_Priest]

Antimagic field is a 10-foot-radius field that follows the caster around, so casting it "on" something doesn't even make sense. Even if it did, and share spells with familiar was in play, it'd stop once Blackwing got more than five feet away from Vaarsuvius.

Even if it did, Blackwing's durability is severely lacking, with 50% as many hit points and 0% as many spells as Vaarsuvius; you're looking at a smashed raven and a lot of lost XP for Vaarsuvius at that point.

Share Spell is what I had in mind. Thank you for the link, it doesn't work like I thought it did. I don't remember ever actually using a familiar in combat. XD

[Goblin_Priest]

Well it would be something you'd want to deploy right before the battle if at all possible.

Even better, Magic Circle Against Evil would affect many people and lasts 10 mins per level.