OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

[woweedd]

You mean magic. Mining can't extract gold forever, is unlikely to have a steady production, is even more unlikely to produce even roughly the amount you need, and does nothing to block outside gold from getting in and inside gold from getting out.
Even assuming the best, the only thing using gold does is loss of all control over your de facto fiat money, wich is now dictated by random chance and technological progress.
Eventualy we'll run out of new gold to dig, or doing so will stop being profitable, or we will find a new use for the material that negates its utility as money. Establishing a better standard by then is only common sense.

He seems to be under the belief that Gold's finiteness is a good thing, presumably not realizing that, while that DOES prevent inflation, it also puts a permanent cap on your economy's growth, one outside of your control, and things will only get worse as your population, and, thus, economy size increases.

[Onyavar]

There are places WITHOUT Free Refills? Why? I mean the cost of the soda is tiny compared to the value of keeping the customers happy.

There were some businesses around here that tried free refills. I was a few times eating at one of these locations with coworkers who always raised their eyebrows if I went to the soda machine to get a refill. Once, I was even reported to the shop owner by another customer, because I hadn't paid for the refill, i.e. stolen a drink.

I haven't seen signs offering free refills, for at least five years, however. If American chains like the McD or the BKing still offer them, it's not largely advertised, as far as I observed.

In short, free refills is a cultural thing, and it seems there are cultures who don't understand it. The argument I usually heard was "but that would mean you can get ten times the amount of drink you paid for - the restaurant's going to be broke tomorrow".

Also, in comparison, German tipping culture is rather cheap. Restaurants simply compensate with higher standard prices.

[Peelee]

There were some businesses around here that tried free refills. I was a few times eating at one of these locations with coworkers who always raised their eyebrows if I went to the soda machine to get a refill. Once, I was even reported to the shop owner by another customer, because I hadn't paid for the refill, i.e. stolen a drink.

I haven't seen signs offering free refills, for at least five years, however. If American chains like the McD or the BKing still offer them, it's not largely advertised, as far as I observed.

In short, free refills is a cultural thing, and it seems there are cultures who don't understand it. The argument I usually heard was "but that would mean you can get ten times the amount of drink you paid for - the restaurant's going to be broke tomorrow".

That argument would hold more weight if people actually got ten refills (I typically get more refills than anyone else i eat with, and even that tops out at 4 or 5). And cokes are cheap. A BiB (big ol' bag of syrup for the fountains) run like $80. I'm not sure exactly how many drinks that breaks into, but I can guarantee ain't no place losing money on even the thirstiest customer.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That argument would hold more weight if people actually got ten refills (I typically get more refills than anyone else i eat with, and even that tops out at 4 or 5). And cokes are cheap. A BiB (big ol' bag of syrup for the fountains) run like $80. I'm not sure exactly how many drinks that breaks into, but I can guarantee ain't no place losing money on even the thirstiest customer.

It doesn't matter - this is about perception. Unlimited drinks don't really work in places were they're not already entrenched because the people perceive the business as headed for bankruptcy (and few people want to go to a place going out of business) or doing "shady stuff" (in this case, some vague conspiracy theory-like diluting or substitution of the promised drink for something cheaper). None of it is actually true, but the perception remains. The whole thing is more than a bit silly, but the bottom line is that businesses have no reason to try to implement it before anyone else does, and therefore none do.

TANSTAAFL and all that, really.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

It doesn't matter - this is about perception. Unlimited drinks don't really work in places were they're not already entrenched because the people perceive the business as headed for bankruptcy (and few people want to go to a place going out of business) or doing "shady stuff" (in this case, some vague conspiracy theory-like diluting or substitution of the promised drink for something cheaper). None of it is actually true, but the perception remains. The whole thing is more than a bit silly, but the bottom line is that businesses have no reason to try to implement it before anyone else does, and therefore none do.

TANSTAAFL and all that, really.

Grey Wolf

Oh, I figured it was perception. Especially since a component of that perception is that they may have to charge even more for drinks, and I know (or, at least, I'm pretty sure) that in Austria at least, soft drinks must be cheaper than beer by law. So the thought of having to pay more for beer in order to get free refills on coke probably also factors into it somewhat. I dunno. I don't live there.

[Keltest]

Not that I can exactly argue against "people aren't basing their actions on reality", but I am deeply curious as to why free refills = headed for bankruptcy. Do Europeans just not trust themselves to avoid drinking the place dry if given half a chance or something?

[Peelee]

Not that I can exactly argue against "people aren't basing their actions on reality", but I am deeply curious as to why free refills = headed for bankruptcy. Do Europeans just not trust themselves to avoid drinking the place dry if given half a chance or something?

Clearly, the restaurant can only not go under with free refills by paying the servers next to nothing and making the customers pay them.

...ya know, I was joking as I wrote that, but now I wonder how much truth there is to it, since both of those things are, if not uniquely American, very closely associated with us.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not that I can exactly argue against "people aren't basing their actions on reality", but I am deeply curious as to why free refills = headed for bankruptcy. Do Europeans just not trust themselves to avoid drinking the place dry if given half a chance or something?

I'd say they expect a very specific subtype of European to drink any such location dry: the dreaded Homo europeaniensis hooliganus

Spoiler: Seen here in its natural environment

Show

(link)

Yes, like elephants, they prefer alcoholic-laden drinks, but it is widely believed that if given half a chance, they will drink and eat a place empty of anything "free".

ETA: So I'll add that there might be also the perception that free refills will attract the wrong kind of clientèle.

I happened to be in Madrid when Spain won the semi-final of the (actual football) World Cup (I was thankfully out of there when a week later they also won the final), and I am not disinclined to believe the stereotypes myself.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I'd say they expect a very specific subtype of European to drink any such location dry: the dreaded Homo europeaniensis hooliganus

Spoiler: Seen here in its natural environment

Show

(link)

Yes, like elephants, they prefer alcoholic-laden drinks, but it is widely believed that if given half a chance, they will drink and eat a place empty of anything "free".

ETA: So I'll add that there might be also the perception that free refills will attract the wrong kind of clientèle.

I happened to be in Madrid when Spain won the semi-final of the (actual football) World Cup (I was thankfully out of there when a week later they also won the final), and I am not disinclined to believe the stereotypes myself.

Grey Wolf

The wrong kind of clientele huh? You mean like... Americans? Yeah, that makes sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The wrong kind of clientele huh? You mean like... Americans? Yeah, that makes sense.

No, I do not "mean" Americans, especially not when I mentioned who I mean literally in the preceding paragraph.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

GW

[Peelee]

The wrong kind of clientele huh? You mean like... Americans? Yeah, that makes sense.

I, for one, enjoyed that joke.

[Ron Miel]

That argument would hold more weight if people actually got ten refills (I typically get more refills than anyone else i eat with, and even that tops out at 4 or 5). And cokes are cheap. A BiB (big ol' bag of syrup for the fountains) run like $80. I'm not sure exactly how many drinks that breaks into, but I can guarantee ain't no place losing money on even the thirstiest customer.

But do they give free refills on Orange Juice?

[2D8HP]

Clearly, the restaurant can only not go under with free refills by paying the servers next to nothing and making the customers pay them.

...ya know, I was joking as I wrote that, but now I wonder how much truth there is to it, since both of those things are, if not uniquely American, very closely associated with us.

While normally a tip is a percentage of the bill, I do often have a minimum tip (usually a dollar) even when somethings given "gratis".

The article I linked to earlier, suggested that in the past, tipping was more common in Europe, than in the U.S.A.

I have no data, but I'd suspect that tipping became less common in Europe, as service staffs standard of living became higher without tips.

Tipping seems to me to be more common in expensive big cities, and less common in cheaper rural areas (though in my experience the restaurants outside of urban areas are more likely to be "fast food" places that tipping isn't customer in, or the wait staff are the owners, or a relative of the owners).

It would be nice if it was easier for the wait staff to make a living just from their wages, but given how many feel the need for additional "gigs", to pay they rent these days, it seems most need a raise, so maybe tipping should be more common?

In a lot of the world, outright bribery is much more common (such as of police officers), and it was more common in the early 20th century U.S.A. as well, I suspect, Canada, Western Europe and the mid to late 20th century USA, are simply historical aberrations by being relatively corruption free.

We'll see.

In OotS terms:

Gresky City = normal

Halls of the Dwarves = outliers

[Doug Lampert]

Huh.

To non-US people, large parties do usually have gratuities automatically added to their checks (though I'm surprised you got 15, it's always been 18% here). And honestly, I never even thought to wonder if it was legal or not.

I suspect if the policy is posted prominently it's legal. But my understanding is that you can tell them to take that tip off the check if you do not feel it's justified. I've got friends who report having done so at least once when the service was particularly bad.

I have no idea if the restaurant is required to remove such a charge by law on request.

I suspect the 18% for large parties is because large party tips are extremely erratic (both too high and too low), and so adding it in is considered fairer. (I've heard of cases of a big party leaving nothing, and I know of several cases where the tip was way over 50% due to no one wanting to bother splitting the check in detail and everyone overestimating their own cost.)

I should point out, that my friends in food service all report that a share of their tip income goes to the kitchen staff and maitre d', so if you're tipping mostly for good food that does have some return to the people actually making the food.

Similarly, at a place with a tip jar where I was usually served by the owner, I once an employee if the owner got a share of the tips, and was told that no, all the tips were split among the employees and the owner just got the business profits (if any).

[Keltest]

No, I do not "mean" Americans, especially not when I mentioned who I mean literally in the preceding paragraph.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

GW

I was attempting to be humorous.

[Peelee]

But do they give free refills on Orange Juice?

Nope. Just sodas, lemonades, and sweet teas. Juices and milks never fall into the free refill category (which saddens me on the rare occasion I go out for breakfast).

[2D8HP]

...DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

This is the Playground, we never "put words" in anyone's mouth.

We put words under their thumbs.

...Don't try to put words in my mouth (we need a new phrase for this, due to the fact I'm using mostly my thumbs for communication.... Don'the put words under my thumbs? Yeah, I like that)....

I'm not putting anything under your thumbs. (I like that expression by the way. ) .

coming together and creating "Don't put words under my thumbs" is an achievement for the ages!

[Keltest]

Nope. Just sodas, lemonades, and sweet teas. Juices and milks never fall into the free refill category (which saddens me on the rare occasion I go out for breakfast).

Storing sufficient quantities of those to make them available is problematic, to say the least. Its almost certainly not the will that's lacking, but the logistics.

[georgie_leech]

Storing sufficient quantities of those to make them available is problematic, to say the least. Its almost certainly not the will that's lacking, but the logistics.

Note that the previous can all be purchased in syrup cube/liquid form that can be added to water, whereas juice and milk are pretty much just juice and milk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was attempting to be humorous.

By suggesting I'm a xenophobe? Yes, absolutely hilarious, I'm sure.

How would you feel if I made a "joke" that suggests that you, Keltest, think all Chinese people are drunks?

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

By suggesting I'm a xenophobe? Yes, absolutely hilarious, I'm sure.

How would you feel if I made a "joke" that suggests that you, Keltest, think all Chinese people are drunks?

Grey Wolf

Trust me, speaking as an American? We deserve everything we get.

[The MunchKING]

Clearly, the restaurant can only not go under with free refills by paying the servers next to nothing and making the customers pay them.

...ya know, I was joking as I wrote that, but now I wonder how much truth there is to it, since both of those things are, if not uniquely American, very closely associated with us.

Nah, Free refills are also a fast food thing, and no one tips there.

How would you feel if I made a "joke" that suggests that you, Keltest, think all Chinese people are drunks?

Grey Wolf

I would make a joke about how much alcohol it would take to keep the world's most populous country drunk even most of the time.

[Peelee]

Nah, Free refills are also a fast food thing, and no one tips there.

Well, yeah, but they save money by serving "food."

Imean, I'll still eat it and all, but still.

[Erys]

“Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists’ antagonism toward the gold standard.”

*
*
*
Shame most men will turn on their principles if offered the right incentive... His words are true though, if you understand how the systems work.

Objection, you were arguing for a slightly better price earlier, and now you're arguing prices would literally halve. You are arguing the economy would be completely static by virtue of... I can't even tell at this point. Some mysterious power of gold coins that prevents prices from being raised.

I have always said it could be a better price down the road. As opposed to fiat currency which guarantees higher prices down the road and across the board (save a few niche exceptions), always.

Also, NOT static, stable. Big difference.

More importantly:
"Commodity money comes about in a natural and voluntary way and does not depend on governments or banks."

This little fact is important, and a worthy read. Especially to the fiat loyalist out there.

You mean magic. Mining can't extract gold forever, is unlikely to have a steady production, is even more unlikely to produce even roughly the amount you need, and does nothing to block outside gold from getting in and inside gold from getting out.
Even assuming the best, the only thing using gold does is loss of all control over your de facto fiat money, wich is now dictated by random chance and technological progress.
Eventualy we'll run out of new gold to dig, or doing so will stop being profitable, or we will find a new use for the material that negates its utility as money. Establishing a better standard by then is only common sense.

De facto fiat? Oy...

There is estimated that in the deep earth there is enough gold to cover the globe in over a foot of it.

If the economy is driven by gold, you better believe technology will exist to get it if/when needed.

Also, using America as an example, Congress regulates the money supply (well, its supposed too... they kind of gave that power to the private entity known as the federal reserve a while ago, but I digress) and is to coin money. So new 'outside' gold couldn't just be injected via third party- at least not without permission. If one year more gold is mined than needed, some gets held back to make up for a short fall another year, so on and so forth.

Common sense tells you that when you work, you should get something that truly represents your efforts. Gold and silver do because they themselves require work to obtain. Work for work, the ideal unit of exchange. A FRN, on the other hand, is simply a debt instrument- an IOU.

He seems to be under the belief that Gold's finiteness is a good thing, presumably not realizing that, while that DOES prevent inflation, it also puts a permanent cap on your economy's growth, one outside of your control, and things will only get worse as your population, and, thus, economy size increases.

As I said, intrinsic currencies mean slow and steady growth; as opposed to boom bust cycles and collapses fiat brings. (And, you do have some measure of control- like mentioned above the US Constitution has proper rules in place for such a thing).

Unfortunately, I doubt any poster here will change their minds from a forum thread about money...

After all, those who control certain aspects of the Country (for better or worse) generally control the schools that teach said aspects. I.e.: Those who profit most from Keynesian economics, teach it as the end all be all and that anyone who even suggest it is not the best thing ever is wrong. Or worse, a kook or conspiracy buff.

Years ago I had an interest in banking history, read a few books (some of which were not Keynesian orientated) and made my own opinion: Fiat money is the devil, it promotes big government, it destroys small business, and is a principle root cause of the wealth divide; all the while making life harder and harder on those who are the most vulnerable year after year.

No thanks.

[georgie_leech]

Common sense tells you that when you work, you should get something that truly represents your efforts. Gold and silver do because they themselves require work to obtain. Work for work, the ideal unit of exchange. A FRN, on the other hand, is simply a debt instrument- an IOU.

Because all the other things you buy with money take no work to produce? All you've done is declared the work needed to dig up gold as the baseline type of work.

And for the record, I can see little evidence that those 15 problems with fiat currency don't just apply to currency, full stop. As if Currency based on bits of metal is somehow immune to rich people getting richer, or rent seeking, or most egregiously, of having some intrinsic value that ensures it exists as a spoon instead of an idea.

EDIT: Something you might find interesting:

Current areas of research include precious metals (gold, silver and platinum group metals), strategic metals and minerals, such as copper, lithium and graphite, as well as oil, gas and coal, green energy, agriculture, rare earth element (REEs), uranium and more.

Bolding mine. That's an excerpt about Hera Research, LLC. That's the company the author of the article founded. I'm not saying that she can't be objective, but I can't help but notice that gold being seen as more valuable benefits her investment company.

[Erys]

Because all the other things you buy with money take no work to produce? All you've done is declared the work needed to dig up gold as the baseline type of work.

That is a core point of mine. Other items, goods, services all require work to create. Money should mirror that.

Work for work. Not work for an IOU.

And for the record, I can see little evidence that those 15 problems with fiat currency don't just apply to currency, full stop. As if Currency based on bits of metal is somehow immune to rich people getting richer, or rent seeking, or most egregiously, of having some intrinsic value that ensures it exists as a spoon instead of an idea.

EDIT: Something you might find interesting:



Bolding mine. That's an excerpt about Hera Research, LLC. That's the company the author of the article founded. I'm not saying that she can't be objective, but I can't help but notice that gold being seen as more valuable benefits her investment company.

I am sure there is some bias... or at least more of a desire to get the word out about intrinsic currency. But they are not wrong. I have read similar things from people who are not connected to the gold market at all.

If you can only create money so fast, and grow an economy so fast... many of those 15 things are, at the very least, much harder to do. Though there are other factors to consider. 100% gold currency means a bank can't manipulate money as it does with fiat... but if you allow fractional reserve banking it can still, even with gold as the base.

[The MunchKING]

That is a core point of mine. Other items, goods, services all require work to create. Money should mirror that.

Work for work. Not work for an IOU.

The National Mints will be very happy to know that their jobs don't actually require any work and that money just magically appears in the sacks ready to go every morning. And here they thought they needed giant machine, and plates and ink and fancy paper to prevent counterfieters and everything.

[georgie_leech]

That is a core point of mine. Other items, goods, services all require work to create. Money should mirror that.

Work for work. Not work for an IOU.

So how is a gold coin work? Because of the effort needed to produce it? Do you think dollar bills appear by magic? Or do all the resources, machines, and people needed to transport, orgqnise, and run everything not count when the end product is made out of paper or plastic?

[2D8HP]

...Shame most.....

Erys, I'm going to try to resist posting anymore on this "golden" topic, but the more you try to convince, the more I believe the opposite.

Ta ta!

[Erys]

The National Mints will be very happy to know that their jobs don't actually require any work and that money just magically appears in the sacks ready to go every morning. And here they thought they needed giant machine, and plates and ink and fancy paper to prevent counterfieters and everything.

I am confused...

Why would those not be in the equation. You don't mine a minted coin.

What are you saying here? Cause it has seemingly nothing related to anything discussed so far.

So how is a gold coin work? Because of the effort needed to produce it? Do you think dollar bills appear by magic? Or do all the resources, machines, and people needed to transport, orgqnise, and run everything not count when the end product is made out of paper or plastic?

How much effort does it take to make a sheet of one dollar bills? By contrast, how much effort does it take to make a sheet of 100 dollar bills? Answer: the same.

How much effort does it take to pull one ounce of gold from the earth, refine and mint it? How much effort does it take to do the same for 100 ounces gold? Answer: 100 times.

One represents the work we put into our every day lives; one does not.

Also, kind of an aside to the core discussion but, when you add fractional reserve banking (in any form) banks can and do literally create new money from nothing.

Erys, I'm going to try to resist posting anymore on this "golden" topic, but the more you try to convince, the more I believe the opposite.

Ta ta!

"Don't forget the best advice: everybody has got a price." -Steve Taylor.

It's sad, but true. Alan Greenspan is a great example in fact, and very apt.

But regardless, later.