Starting a D&D game at mid-level

[VoxRationis]

So I've been inspired to make an old-school dungeon crawl with old-school rules. I intend on running a one-shot adventure in AD&D 2e (the late 90s printing, in case it matters). However, since the central point of the adventure is the old "save the princess to marry her and get 1/2 the kingdom" trope*, it doesn't make a ton of sense for the players to be 1st-level chumps, and so I intend on starting it at around 6-8th level (I haven't made up my mind which one, but I'll give everyone an XP budget equal to what it would take to get a wizard to the level I choose). However, the DM's Guide is kind of taciturn about the concept of starting above 1st level. How much equipment should such characters get? Would henchmen be appropriate (maybe if they make a Charisma check on character creation)? How many spells should the party wizard start off with? Should anyone have magic items?


*Mixed with a little bit of It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World/Rat Race, since obviously only one person can marry the princess and claim half the kingdom...

[Magua]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...beyond-level-1

tldr: No official rules, wing it.

Give them a gold budget and let them spend it on equipment, henchmen, magic items, etc as needed. Say 10,000-15,000gp per player.

Wizards got some number of 1st level spells at level 1, and then gained an additional spell per level after that. I would just make them pay for more (50gp or 100gp * spell level). Note that there is a maximum number of spells per level that they can know, based on their Intelligence.

[hamlet]

You might also want to go through the magic items and maybe spell lists and specifically rule out anything you feel wouldn't be appropriate. Staff of the Magi, scrolls of Wish and all that.

For number of spells, I generally follow a rule that a wizard can have as many spells per level in their book as they can cast per day +1d6. Some variety, but not an insane amount and reflects the fact that they've been adventuring for a couple years now and have been able to dig out some spells.

[Lord Torath]

A DM I had let me pick magic items with an xp value equal to my starting XP (level 3 mage, 5000 xp), with a per-item max of 1500 xp. I also got my starting level x the maximum starting gold for my class for mundane gear.

For anther character, he gave me gold equal to 10% of my XP, and randomly-rolled 4 magic weapons and 4 misc. magic items (starting as a level 9 paladin).

[VoxRationis]

What rules do people think worked well? Magic item value equal to total XP seems a little much... Also, do people have rules for starting henchmen or hirelings?

[Lord Torath]

What rules do people think worked well? Magic item value equal to total XP seems a little much... Also, do people have rules for starting henchmen or hirelings?

To be fair, that was a pretty magic-rich campaign - one of the other players had the Thunderhammer triple-play, and I was making a character to join in the existing game (hint: magic Quarterstaffs and Special Daggers are very cheap XP-wise compared to other magic weapons).

I think the NPC-party-building rules in the Monstrous Manual are a good way to go.

[FreddyNoNose]

What rules do people think worked well? Magic item value equal to total XP seems a little much... Also, do people have rules for starting henchmen or hirelings?

A bad thing the DMs can do it to give out too much magic items. Remember that it is easier to give than to take away. Therefore it is much better to start them underpowered than overpowered. You can fix underpowered by giving more items but perhaps keeping them a bit underpowered is best!

You should only let into the game items/spells that you are ok with having in your game and that are appropriate to the setting.


A point system is the way to go rather than gold. Avoid using the xp/gold value in the dmg for this and make up your own system. I would make up lists by class/subclass. Fighters and sub-types get one, mages another, cleric/druids another, rogue/assassins another.

Think of a fighter and for 6 - 8 levels start with the following types of items: one weapon, one armor or shield, one misc magic item or jewelry and a some potions. Plus to weapons and armor/shield as follows: Levels 4-7 get +1, 8-11 get +2, 12-15 get +3

So a 6th to 8th level fighter might have 600 - 800 points to spend on a list like this:
Potions:
60 Extra Healing
40 Fire Resistance
50 Giant Strength
25 Healing
30 Heroism
40 Invulnerability
70 Super-Heroism

Melee Weapon: (obviously you can only buy one primary weapon. It means first weapon. Secondary means second weapon. So if you buy two +1 short swords, the cost is 75 (+1 primary) + 125 (+1 secondary).
75 +1 Primary Weapon (4th level+)
150 +2 Primary Weapon (8th level +)
125 +1 Secondary Weapon (4th level+)
250 +2 Secondary Weapon (8th level +)

Range/missile/throwing Weapon:
75 +1 Primary Weapon (4th level+)
150 +2 Primary Weapon (8th level +)
25 +1 arrows/bolts: count 20 (4th level+)
50 +2 arrows/bolts count 20 (8th level +)

Armor:
125 +1 chain mail (4th level+)
190 +1 plate mail (4th level+)
75 +1 shield (4th level+)
180 +2 chain mail (8th level +)
300 +2 plate mail (8th level +)
150 +2 shield (8th level +)

Jewelry:
200 Ring of Free Action
130 Ring of Protection +1
90 Ring of Swimming

Misc Magic:
300 Bag of Holding weight limit 500
250 Boots of Elvenkind
225 Dust of appearance (5 uses)
80 Horseshoes of speed
170 Horn of Blasting
150 Javelin of Lightning (quantity 3)
50 Javelin of Lightning (quantity 1)

I am not saying use these values or items. This is just an example and no doubt the costs are wacky. Just an idea.

[VoxRationis]

To be fair, that was a pretty magic-rich campaign - one of the other players had the Thunderhammer triple-play, and I was making a character to join in the existing game (hint: magic Quarterstaffs and Special Daggers are very cheap XP-wise compared to other magic weapons).

I think the NPC-party-building rules in the Monstrous Manual are a good way to go.

Hmm. Yet another reason to get my hands on the Monstrous Manual. Anyone know of a good way to get it cheap, or better, free?

*Edit: I have the Monster Manual II, but I think there are some rules differences, and it doesn't have any good explanations of how to use the monsters.

[Jay R]

In a 2e game you don't usually get to choose your items. I recommend that the DM roll up about 2-3 treasures from each level that they have already gone through. [Treasures of 2-3 monsters you'd send after a first level party, then 2-3 monsters you'd send after a 2nd level party, etc.] Then drop about 2/3 of the one-shot items and 1/3 of the limited use items, on the assumption that they would have already used them. Take the number of charges of the remaining limited-use items down a lot - but don't reduce much from the last few treasures rolled.

I'd make sure that there was at least one really good item for each player, and a good mix of one-shot items, wands and other charged items with few charges left, protective gear, and some weird ones you have no idea how they can use. [These last are the most fun, if they are creative.]

[hamlet]

Hmm. Yet another reason to get my hands on the Monstrous Manual. Anyone know of a good way to get it cheap, or better, free?

*Edit: I have the Monster Manual II, but I think there are some rules differences, and it doesn't have any good explanations of how to use the monsters.

WOTC has pdf's of the books for sale at, I think, $5 each out there. Cannot tell you where to get it for free, though.

[Lord Torath]

Hmm. Yet another reason to get my hands on the Monstrous Manual. Anyone know of a good way to get it cheap, or better, free?.

How cheap is cheap? eBay has it for $8+shipping.

[LibraryOgre]

I concur with using the NPC party building rules. It gives them a random selection of items, as you get in playing.

[VoxRationis]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

[VoxRationis]

More questions:
What are the favored methods of stat generation? 2e tends to be lower-power than later editions, I understand, but 3d6 in order for all stats still seems a trifle harsh. Or do people just do it by the book?

[Magua]

Depends what you're going for. If it's the old timey feel, 3d6 in order is where it's at. But such things like "wanting to play a wizard but rolled an 8 for intelligence" never seemed like the recipe for a good time.

Personally, I used "roll 6x 3d6, arrange as desired", but they could also try as many times as they wanted.

[Thrudd]

I think "4d6 drop lowest arrange as desired" has been the most popular for most of the groups I've seen, from 1e onward. In 2e it was further down the list of methods, but it's still there in the DMG.

For a certain type of game, I like rolling stats in order, but one set of 3d6 is a little harsh for AD&D. I would go with 3d6 choose the best of 2 or 3 for each stat, in order. The 1e method where you get 3d6 x6 for each stat creates very high scores, is probably too much.

I think the method that is a proto-point buy (I forget which number method it is, it's the last one in the DMG) is good for a game where you want the players to be able to choose their class and be pretty sure of qualifying for it. I only modify what's in the book by giving them an extra die or two, because I find that 7 dice tends to give scores a bit on the low side. The good thing for them is, everything starts at 8, so they are sure not to have any penalties if they don't want them. Everything starts at eight. You roll the seven (or eight or nine) dice. Then add the results of the dice to the various stats as you desire, with the only rule being you have to use the whole numbers and the max for all stats is 18.

[FreddyNoNose]

More questions:
What are the favored methods of stat generation? 2e tends to be lower-power than later editions, I understand, but 3d6 in order for all stats still seems a trifle harsh. Or do people just do it by the book?

I prefer 3d6 but use 4d6b3 in my 1st ed ad&d campaign. You don't get the place the stats. You roll for a given stat and keep it.

[hamlet]

I've always done 4d6k3, but when playing AD&D as DM asked players to put them in order rolled. Why? Because it tends to push folks into something unexpected and new. They might not get to play the mage they really wanted, but sometimes they get a different character that they fall in love with simply because it was so unexpected. I've only ever had one complaint, and that ended very swiftly when the player declared that he loved it and wouldn't dream of trying to rearrange his stats to taste.

Also tends to preserve just a little of the old school flavor, too.

[FreddyNoNose]

I've always done 4d6k3, but when playing AD&D as DM asked players to put them in order rolled. Why? Because it tends to push folks into something unexpected and new. They might not get to play the mage they really wanted, but sometimes they get a different character that they fall in love with simply because it was so unexpected. I've only ever had one complaint, and that ended very swiftly when the player declared that he loved it and wouldn't dream of trying to rearrange his stats to taste.

Also tends to preserve just a little of the old school flavor, too.

Or they could get the mage with a 12 Int, the cleric with a 13 wisdom, the fighter with the 14 strength, or the no paladin for you!

They also get more challenge or perhaps learn to rise up their playing level.

[Jay R]

I have had good luck using a hybrid. 3d6 in order, but with two options:
1. You can use them in either order. Strength is either the first one or the last one.
2. You can read either the tops or the bottoms of the dice. (This is equivalent to either using the rolls you got, or subtracting them all from 21 and using that.

The second option guarantees at least an average set of rolls, and the first one give some options about where they go. [In fact, a really poor set of rolls becomes excellent when you turn the dice over.]

For an example, I will roll six stats: 12, 12, 6, 13, 16, 7.

You can subtract them from 21, using 9, 9, 15, 8, 5, 14.

And/or you can reverse the order: 7, 16, 13, 6, 12, 12.

Doing both gives 14, 5, 8, 15, 9, 9.

So you can play any of the following:
STR 12, DEX 12, CON 6, INT 13, WIS 16, CHA 7. Reasonable wizard; good cleric.
STR 9, DEX 9, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 5, CHA 14. Possible bard
STR 7, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 6, WIS 12, CHA 12. Good thief
STR 14, DEX 5, CON 8, INT 15, WIS 9, CHA 9. Possible fighter. Good wizard.

It allows some flexibility while retaining the old-school approach that you don't play just anything you want.

[FreddyNoNose]

I have had good luck using a hybrid. 3d6 in order, but with two options:
1. You can use them in either order. Strength is either the first one or the last one.
2. You can read either the tops or the bottoms of the dice. (This is equivalent to either using the rolls you got, or subtracting them all from 21 and using that.

The second option guarantees at least an average set of rolls, and the first one give some options about where they go. [In fact, a really poor set of rolls becomes excellent when you turn the dice over.]

For an example, I will roll six stats: 12, 12, 6, 13, 16, 7.

You can subtract them from 21, using 9, 9, 15, 8, 5, 14.

And/or you can reverse the order: 7, 16, 13, 6, 12, 12.

Doing both gives 14, 5, 8, 15, 9, 9.

So you can play any of the following:
STR 12, DEX 12, CON 6, INT 13, WIS 16, CHA 7. Reasonable wizard; good cleric.
STR 9, DEX 9, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 5, CHA 14. Possible bard
STR 7, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 6, WIS 12, CHA 12. Good thief
STR 14, DEX 5, CON 8, INT 15, WIS 9, CHA 9. Possible fighter. Good wizard.

It allows some flexibility while retaining the old-school approach that you don't play just anything you want.

I don't like it. Might as well make it straight rolls on each stat no monkeying around with it.

[LibraryOgre]

One thing I have done (in C&C) was have folks roll 3d6, arrange to taste... but they can increase their Primes* to 15, then adjust for race. Do you put your good stats in your Primes, leaving you with some poor stats? Or do you put that 4 on a prime, and bump it up to a 15 automagically?

*Characters in C&C have 2 Primes; one is determined by your class, the other, you get to pick. Primes are a shorthand for skill training, good saves, and a bunch of other stuff. So, all fighters have Strength prime, all thieves Dexterity, etc.. Humans have the special ability of a 3rd prime.

[Jay R]

I don't like it. Might as well make it straight rolls on each stat no monkeying around with it.

Fine. Then don't play with it. We should all play in ways that we can enjoy, and we'll never agree what the One True Way to play should be.

My players enjoyed it, and that's all I needed.

[FreddyNoNose]

Fine. Then don't play with it. We should all play in ways that we can enjoy, and we'll never agree what the One True Way to play should be.

My players enjoyed it, and that's all I needed.

True that. Just saying I don't like it. Isn't a slam on anything. Don't take it personally.

[Tinkerer]

Ooh, I really like being able to take the tops or bottoms of the dice set. Leaves the "play what you roll" aspect of rolling 3d6 down the line but guarantees you at least an average person. Because let's face it, playing a character who is under 9 in all stats generally sucks. Favourite RPG discovery of the month right there. I wouldn't personally use the option of reversing the order on top of that but to each his own.

[hamlet]

Ooh, I really like being able to take the tops or bottoms of the dice set. Leaves the "play what you roll" aspect of rolling 3d6 down the line but guarantees you at least an average person. Because let's face it, playing a character who is under 9 in all stats generally sucks. Favourite RPG discovery of the month right there. I wouldn't personally use the option of reversing the order on top of that but to each his own.

Which is why, as I recall, it's actually in the rules that if you roll so low you should roll again since you don't qualify for any class.

In any case, my general rule is that folks can roll up sets of stats until they find one they're relatively happy with. Within reason. You want to roll 5 in a row? Go for it. After that or if you end up taking 30 or 40 minutes just to generate 6 numbers, as the DM I start to get irritated, and an irritated DM tends not to fudge the dice in your favor.

[LibraryOgre]

Something Hackmaster includes is the "Shopkeeper Rule"... if your stats are so bad (two stats under 5 or none above 13, IIRC), you can simply discard them. Roll a new set of 7. The game also provides a concrete advantage to keeping your stats as they're rolled, or making only a modest change, rather than arranging them to taste. It makes for some more unique characters with odd strengths and weaknesses.

[hifidelity2]

I have always used 4d6 best 3 place where you want

Yes it means the "Wizard" player always get the high INT for his Wizard etc but if that is what he likes playing then so be it

[Knaight]

Something Hackmaster includes is the "Shopkeeper Rule"... if your stats are so bad (two stats under 5 or none above 13, IIRC), you can simply discard them. Roll a new set of 7. The game also provides a concrete advantage to keeping your stats as they're rolled, or making only a modest change, rather than arranging them to taste. It makes for some more unique characters with odd strengths and weaknesses.

The question is, do you actually get to flesh out the failed character as Shopkeeper NPC and then hand that to the GM? If so, that rule suddenly sounds really fun.

[LibraryOgre]

The question is, do you actually get to flesh out the failed character as Shopkeeper NPC and then hand that to the GM? If so, that rule suddenly sounds really fun.

Nothing says you can't. ;-) Mostly, it's "These stats are too poor to be an adventurer. Roll a different set of stats."