Okay, what should Hurok have done, then? (Prequel spoilers)

[Finagle]

I see so many people saying Hurok was an idiot for sending Durkon away. What would you have done? You've got a prophecy, straight from the top. From Odin to the High Priest of Odin. From a deity known for his foresight and avoiding the inevitable doom as long as possible. It is credible and will happen.

Should you let Durkon return home and the doom will come to the dwarves right away? Remember, it's a real prophecy. If Durkon returns home that same day, who knows what shape the doom will take? Maybe there's a vampire lurking in his quarters who possesses him and uses him to take over the Temple of Thor. Maybe Durkon's weight pushes a fault line ever so much more and a major earthquake occurs. Who can say? All that's known is the doom is 100% certain when Durkon returns home. It's something that's going to happen.

So, the position seems to be that Hurok is an utter idiot for exiling Durkon and thus ensuring that the doom will come in the shape of Durkula. He made it happen, seems to be the idea. I assert that this is incorrect, the doom was coming regardless, and Hurok successfully put it off for seventeen(?) years, ensuring seventeen years of life the dwarves would otherwise have not had. An act of foresight postponing doom, a move worthy of Father Odin himself.

So, what would you have done? Allowed Durkon to go back home, thus ensuring doom for them all without delay? Told Durkon the reason for his exile, ensuring that the doom will come another way? Give him a one-way ticket to the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing?

[hroþila]

The prophecy already took into account Hurak's actions. That's the beauty of prophecies - they're ironically self-fulfilling (which, incidentally, Hurak knew). In other words, nothing Hurak did or didn't do could prevent the prophecy from coming true. If I had been High Priest, or if Hurak hadn't been inclined to exile Durkon, then there wouldn't have been a prophecy at all, and thus neither me nor Hurak would have had to deal with it in the first place.

When people hear a prophecy, sometimes they're inclined to believe the conditions ARE the prophecy, and that it can come true in a number of (possibly less damaging) ways if you manipulate the conditions. I don't think that's the case: Durkon was going to bring Death and Destruction to them all because he was always going to be kicked out, become a vampire and THEN return and bring Death and Destruction. No putting it off. Of course, this is only clear a posteriori, but it should be enough for anyone not to bother messing with a prophecy.

So, I guess I would have told Durkon and discussed the best course of action with him AND the High Priest of Odin, and I suspect exile might have been my decision too (so scratch what I said in my first paragraph, I guess?).

[Kish]

I'm not going to address the actual question the OP asked (so feel free to skip the rest of this post), because the thread-starting post, and other posts like it in the main discussion thread, seem to sweep the cruelty of Hurok's method under the rug. Kind of like when people were defending the racist elf commander's expressed genocidal racism because, somehow, the only alternative to killing someone in a particularly sadistic way and announcing loudly that good goblins were dead goblins was to "trust the obvious spy!"

If you want to understand why people disapprove of Hurak, I can only suggest you try to find a perspective from which there's an actual, worth-mentioning difference between telling Durkon, "You have to leave, there's been a prophecy that the next time you return home you'll bring death and destruction for us all. You can't go home to say goodbye to your mother, for obvious reasons, but I can get her to come here before you leave..." and telling him "I'm sending you on a mission to the human lands. You have no time to pack because immediately doesn't mean later today. No, you can't say goodbye to anyone, because I said so" and literally throwing him out in the snow and throwing his armor and hammer at him.

Because both Durkon and the monster controlling his body see a difference.

[factotum]

The problem is, if I lived in a world where prophecy existed, then I'd be hosed in this case--because prophecies always come true. The only thing I can do is to delay it as long as possible. However, kicking Durkon out in the snow with no reason given is not the right way to go about that. As Roy says, you just tell Durkon the unvarnished truth about the prophecy and what it says, and let him make the decision to leave on his own--which he will do, because he's that kind of a person. Arrange for him to have a last meeting with his mother (but not at home, for obvious reasons), then he walks out into the snow, hopefully never to be seen again.

Of course, the situation plays out pretty much identically to how it does in the existing story timeline--Durkon is eventually vamped by Malack and the evil spirit driving his corpse then forces his return to his homeland, whatever Durkon himself may think--but at least Durkon was given a chance to make his peace with his family and leave of his own volition.

One other thing to note: I don't believe that what Hurak did was actually Evil, as many seem to. According to his lights he was just saving dwarven lives, and his lack of empathy about what Durkon himself would feel doesn't make him evil. If he'd kicked Durkon out because he wanted to see him suffer, and the prophecy was just a convenient excuse, then *that* would be an evil act.

[B. Dandelion]

I think Kish already cut to the heart of what I wanted to say, but at the risk of reiterating: it's less that Hurak was an idiot and more that he was a jerk. He could have chosen the exact same course of action with a little more compassion and it would have made a huge difference. That seems to be the exact point 1096 makes -- Vaarsuvius, the person with the highest Intelligence score in the group, says that Hurak's decision to banish Durkon makes a certain amount of logical sense, and the also-highly-intelligent Roy concurs. But he then goes on to add that what gets him is that Hurak never told Durkon, not only because he deserved to know but because Durkon would only have hastened to follow Hurak's directives if he'd known the true motives behind them. There's no in-strip justification for the cruelty of the way the banishment was carried out, and the strong implication there is because there wasn't one. Hurak panicked, he behaved badly towards Durkon as a result, and he's being judged for it.

That's not to say it was necessarily evil or an offense warranting of eternal torture. A firing offense I think for sure -- he fell down on the job there big time. But mostly he acted badly out of fear.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's not to say it was necessarily evil or an offense warranting of eternal torture. A firing offense I think for sure -- he fell down on the job there big time. But mostly he acted badly out of fear.

And what happens to dwarves that act out of fear instead of with honor and bravery?

That's right, they end up in Hel. Which sucks for a dwarf who lives his life honorably and then dies due to a freak accident. But that Hurak deserves, even if I suspect he got away with it, the bastard.

Unless, of course, Hurak's actions were not a one-off, but a pattern of spineless cowardice, in which case he might have gone on to end up (down?) in Hel regardless. Oh well, I live and hope.

Grey Wolf

[Finagle]

Sacrificing one dwarf to save the whole race? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sacrificing one dwarf to save the whole race? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

I see you continue to miss the point. I therefore predict you will continue to not understand what makes Hurak's actions wrong.

GW

[Zyzzyva]

And what happens to dwarves that act out of fear instead of with honor and bravery?

That's right, they end up in Hel. Which sucks for a dwarf who lives his life honorably and then dies due to a freak accident. But that Hurak deserves, even if I suspect he got away with it, the bastard.

Unless, of course, Hurak's actions were not a one-off, but a pattern of spineless cowardice, in which case he might have gone on to end up (down?) in Hel regardless. Oh well, I live and hope.

Grey Wolf

I never got the impression that that's how the dwarven afterlife system works. I think that it's like the human/lizardfolk/hobgoblin/everybody else one, in that you go to whatever plane your alignment suggests, except that there's an extra step at the beginning involving dying with honour. Nothing to do with living with honour and which, as has been noted, the dwarves have already heavily structured their society around.

So Hurak's a colossal jackass. Maybe this was a one-off, maybe it wasn't; maybe he's LG, or TN, or, hell, NE. But as long as he died from being mauled by the polar bear he feebly but deliberately challenged to personal combat at the age of 194, Hel doesn't come into it.

[jidasfire]

A recurring theme in OOTS seems to be that the mistakes of the past will be paid for in the present. In the case of Hurak, he made a snap decision to protect his people based on the rather grim and vague information he had at the time. Was it the right decision in retrospect? Obviously not. Was it handled in the moment as well as it could have been? Obviously not. Is it going to bite the dwarven people in the backside? Obviously so. Does it make Hurak an irredeemably bad person? Eh, that's less obvious. It's easy to say what we would or wouldn't have done from the outside, and while I'm not saying Hurak was right by any metric, it's easy to see how a leader could make the decision to sacrifice one for the sake of all others. If the prophecy is false and you act on it anyway, you've ruined one life unjustly. If, however, the prophecy is true and you don't act on it, you've ruined everyone's lives for an abstract sense of fairness. Given that time could very well have been a factor, Hurak made a choice.

So for all this, I'm not saying I agree which unceremoniously chucking Durkon out into the cold. Roy was right: Durkon would have gone willingly if he knew the truth. I'm just saying this new forum thinking that Hurak is as evil as the actual villains is probably misplaced sentiment.

[alwaysbebatman]

Huh. I went into this thread expecting it to already be answered, seeing as several people gave the correct answer in the comic reaction thread. A prophecy is like unexploded ordnance-- you can't just get rid of it, you can't defuse it, it will go off and there's no telling when.

Flinging the prophecy away for it to boomerang back on you at an unknown time when nobody will be prepared and telling nobody is the worst possible option. Some have theorized that Hurak understood that and was acting out of pure selfishness: that he hoped to merely delay the prophecy until he lived out his natural life. But his words in OTOOPCs belie that theory-- he clearly believes Durkon will genuinely never return, and simply has a poor grasp on how prophecies work. The prophecy says "when" Durkon returns, not "if". (It wouldn't be much of a prophecy if it had an "if" in it...)

Others have pointed out, that even if Hurak had been right about his strategy preventing the prophecy, he could have handled the situation with greater kindness and empathy. But that's not what you're asking: what should he have done?

I would have told Durkon the prophecy, explained that, no, just going out to get honorably killed to prevent it isn't an option (because that's the first thing Durkon would have suggested) because the prophecy says "when" whatever we do to prevent it will backfire. Send him out on a five-year mission with a group of clerics and warriors (no need for him to be alone) to level up and stockpile diamonds and Resurrect spells and Mend spells.

The bomb can't be defused and can't be thrown far away indefinitely, but it can be set off intentionally when everyone is as prepared as possible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I never got the impression that that's how the dwarven afterlife system works. I think that it's like the human/lizardfolk/hobgoblin/everybody else one, in that you go to whatever plane your alignment suggests, except that there's an extra step at the beginning involving dying with honour. Nothing to do with living with honour and which, as has been noted, the dwarves have already heavily structured their society around.

The Giant disagrees with your assessment about the need to constantly live with honor

I'm just saying this new forum thinking that Hurak is as evil as the actual villains is probably misplaced sentiment.

[citation needed]

Really, do find a single person categorically stating that "Hurak is as evil as the actual villains".

GW

[Zyzzyva]

The Giant disagrees with your assessment about the need to constantly live with honor

Had not seen that post! Thanks.

[Kardwill]

Sacrificing one dwarf to save the whole race? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Okay, imagine your boss comes into your office, and tells you "you've been chosen to open a branch of the company in Syria (or wherever your own personal definition of a dangerous hellhole is). Congratulation! No, don't bother going home to tell your family, we'll warn them. No, you don't get to prepare for the trip either, and we won't help you do that difficult job, you'll be on your own. Here is a plane ticket, 100$ and a sandwich. Those security guards will escort you to the plane. Good luck, and don't ever come back again. Maybe we'll phone to you in 10 years to let you know if you're allowed to have your life back"

Do you
a - obey, and never come back again
b - say "screw that job" and get into the first plane back home

The way Hurak did this was not only heartless (Exiling him like a murderer, under the pretense of what looked like a useless, stupid and suicidal mission without any good reason? not letting him hug Sigdi one last time, seriously?), but also incredibly stupid : Durkon had every reason to come back, and very good motives for vengeance. Even a devout priest like him would get his faith seriously challenge in such circunstances.

Look at the banishment flashback : Durkon does not believe it was Thor that banished him, he's convinced it's an act of cruelty from his church. Hurok was very lucky Durkon was just THAT lawful and didn't simply come back with the first caravan, saying "to Hel with these fools!"

Hurok made a very, very bad decision while under pressure. It's kinda normal, but now, his whole civilisation faces apocalypse because of it, so he's getting judged for it.

Oh, and bonus point : He's a priest who heard the Word of God (well, Word of God's Dad in his case), and tried to brush the problem under the rug (banish the vector of the prophecy and then forget about it) rather than prepare for it. So yeah, he's got aggravating circumstances.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Had not seen that post! Thanks.

You may want to read the other posts by the Giant in that thread. They are all beautifully written and informative and in one case heart breaking.

GW

[alwaysbebatman]

The Giant disagrees with your assessment about the need to constantly live with honor

Reading what Mr. Burlew said there, I don't see how he is saying that a dwarf must live with honor in order to avoid Hel. Just that they DO live with honor ("honor" meaning "taking deadly risks at every available opportunity" it seems like) because that optimizes the likelihood that when they do happen to die, it will have been with honor...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Reading what Mr. Burlew said there, I don't see how he is saying that a dwarf must live with honor in order to avoid Hel. Just that they DO live with honor ("honor" meaning "taking deadly risks at every available opportunity" it seems like) because that optimizes the likelihood that when they do happen to die, it will have been with honor...

I fail to see the difference between the two. The dwarves, by and large, live with honour to prevent ending in Hel.

GW

[alwaysbebatman]

I fail to see the difference between the two. The dwarves, by and large, live with honour to prevent ending in Hel.

GW

The difference is, Zzyzzyva's post was exactly correct, and Hurak would not go to Hel if he lived his life without honor, dying with honor is all that matters. Regardless of what 99.9% of dwarfs actually do.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The difference is, Zzyzzyva's post was exactly correct, and Hurak would not go to Hel if he lived his life without honor, dying with honor is all that matters. Regardless of what 99.9% of dwarfs actually do.

Which was also acknowledged in my post, so huzzah! we were all right, and I fail to see what you think you are attempting to address.

GW

[alwaysbebatman]

So, you said "The Giant disagrees" even though we all agree? All right then, we all agree. Rock on.

[Cizak]

Sacrificing one dwarf to save the whole race? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Bull. Hurak didn't save anyone. The prophecy is being fulfilled, and he didn't do a damned thing in order to prevent it. What he did was stuff the ticking time bomb under the floor boards and then not tell anyone that it could go off at any time. No further precautions, no notes to his successors, and oh yeah; no explanation to the dwarf he abruptly and cruelly threw out to die in the snow without getting to save goodbye to his family. Besides being cruel it was also just stupid. Even without magical domination, a common thing in the OotS world, people change alignment all the time. It's nothing but sheer luck on Hurak's part that Durkon is still Lawful Good.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, you said "The Giant disagrees" even though we all agree? All right then, we all agree. Rock on.

Nothing to do with living with honour

the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably."

This space left intentionally blank

[Insipid Moniker]

IMO everyone is accepting the premise that banishing Durkon is a logical response to the prophecy. Ethics aside, if Durkon is in the city and a prophecy says Durkon's return TO the city will bring destruction, banishing him is fulfilling part of the prophecy, not preventing it. Better logic would be to ensure Durkon never leaves the city--you can't return someplace you never leave. Imprisoning or killing Durkon would make more sense, again ethics/morals aside.

And on a separate note, didn't the high priest lift the banishment in a letter to Durkon, which he never received?

[Keltest]

Given that Rich has also gone on to say that living honorably does squat for you if you, say, go out choking on a chicken bone at dinner, I don't think your point is as strong as you think it is.

[citation needed]

Really, do find a single person categorically stating that "Hurak is as evil as the actual villains".

GW

Also, its not explicit, but you better darn well think somebody is particularly evil before you wish them an eternity of torment at Hel's hands.

[alwaysbebatman]

@GW: So, are you saying that we DO disagree? Are you contrasting those quotes because they are supposed to contradict each other?

They really don't: Zzyzzyva is talking about what happens to a dwarf soul if they live without honor but die with honor. Mr. Burlew is talking about what dwarfs generally do and what their mores are. There is no contradiction.

I thought we had already agreed on that, but maybe I misunderstood?

[Kardwill]

IMO everyone is accepting the premise that banishing Durkon is a logical response to the prophecy. Ethics aside, if Durkon is in the city and a prophecy says Durkon's return TO the city will bring destruction, banishing him is fulfilling part of the prophecy, not preventing it. Better logic would be to ensure Durkon never leaves the city--you can't return someplace you never leave. Imprisoning or killing Durkon would make more sense, again ethics/morals aside.

Too many meanings for "Home" for that to work. You'd spring the curse when he goes home to his mother's house, when his corpse goes to the family crypt, when his vengeful ghost ends up in Valhalla, when he finds peace and companionship in his prison, when he goes back to save his mom when the city is getting evacuated...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

IMO everyone is accepting the premise that banishing Durkon is a logical response to the prophecy. Ethics aside, if Durkon is in the city and a prophecy says Durkon's return TO the city will bring destruction, banishing him is fulfilling part of the prophecy, not preventing it. Better logic would be to ensure Durkon never leaves the city--you can't return someplace you never leave. Imprisoning or killing Durkon would make more sense, again ethics/morals aside.

It would be better logic, but impossible to put into practice for a (at least supposedly) Good priest. I doubt the laws and ordinances of Firmament would have allowed Hurak to kill or permanently imprison Durkon "because of a prophecy". Exiling him before he could return home was a logical way to kick the problem down the road. It was also despicable and cowardly. Edit: It was done in a very despicable and cowardly way.

And on a separate note, didn't the high priest lift the banishment in a letter to Durkon, which he never received?

No, that was the new High Priest of Thor.

@GW: So, are you saying that we DO disagree?

"We"? I don't have a horse in the race, and I'm still quite fuzzy on what your position on this is.

Are you contrasting those quotes because they are supposed to contradict each other?

Zyzzyva concluded that Hel's bet had "Nothing to do with living with honour". The Giant informed us that Hel's bet had everything to do with the dwarves living with honour. Therefore, they disagree(d). Note that I don't have a position here. I accept that in OotSverse, Hel's bet lead to the dwarven lifestyle, because I take the Giant at his word, since I am not a Death-of-the-author person. Nothing more, nothing less.

Grey Wolf

[Vinyadan]

He should have told Durkon the situation, asked for the advice of others, and maybe summoned some divine being to get a third opinion.

Personally, I would have asked Durkon to live an ascetic life, and to make it his vow never, ever, ever to leave the lands. Then I would have given him a 24-person bodyguard to rotate during the day and never leave him alone. It would have been bad, but I don't think it would have been outright evil.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hurok's game plan (and prophecy being a thing, there should be a preplanned game plan for several situations) should run something like this.

1. Tell Durkon about the prophecy. Exact wording and everything (the 'when' clause). Make him swear to keep it secret no matter what.
2. Give Durkon an "assignment" to go out into the human lands to live his life with as much honor as possible, and for as long as possible.
3. Invite his family to come to the temple to say good bye (and bring his stuff). Maybe have a ceremony to bless him for his "assignment". Make sure Durkon leaves behind a lock of his beard 'just in case'.
4. Make sure Sigdi knows she'll be receiving Discounted Health Care from the temple to compensate for Durkon not being there to give her free health care (arranging for a Restoration/Regeneration spell might be a useful sweetener as well).
5. Make arrangements to pass this information on to the next HPoT; say, swear Firuk Blackore to keep the secret from everyone except the HPoT--if there's a new HP, he is already cleared to talk about it.
6. Try to figure out what preparatory steps are needed for the day the prophecy comes true.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Vinyadan & Rogar's approaches are both workable. They might have failed regardless (because prophecy), but they are both much better than what Hurok did. I want this clearly stated so that my nitpicking doesn't get itself nitpicked by third parties.

Make him swear to keep it secret no matter what.

Why the need for secrecy, though? I mean, I'm not suggesting to shout it from the rafters since that can cause a mass panic, but not sure what is gained from swearing it into secrecy.

And I do agree that, after Durkon & other wise people had decided and agreed on a course of action for Durkon, the next step should be to have those same wise minds figure out what they'd do to oppose and ameliorate the D&D when it did come, since it was a case of when and not if. This, IMnpHO, is possibly the most crucial step

Grey Wolf