The Orville

[Olinser]

I have to assume that Olinser was equally outraged when Kirk stole the Enterprise and then blew it up, and instead of a court martial, he was made captain of a new, better ship.

Not as much, but it was also pretty stupid then, as well.

First, the ship they stole was actually going to be decommissioned (i.e. scrapped), and they explicitly said they were going to be court-martialed for stealing the ship. They only got out of it because of the next stupid Save The Whales movie and them saving Earth. Kirk faced 'consequences', in that he was demoted back to Captain and given command of a ship, which is what he wanted anyway. And apparently the ship they gave him was a piece of crap, as we found out in the next movie.

And I said it was a stupid resolution to the plot when it happened, almost all of movie Trek after Wrath of Khan is REALLY bad.

At least with Kirk, not once does he attempt to tell Starfleet that he shouldn't be punished for what he did, he knew the consequences and was 100% prepared to face them because he thought it was worth it to save his friend (YMMV on whether he was right). But of course the crew wanted more movies so they DXMed their way out of it so they could make more movies.

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Discovery, on the other hand, she has NO justifiable reason for her actions that passes even a basic logic test (if she is incapable of dealing rationally with Klingons that's even a further mark against her being anywhere near command), and I don't think even once actually admits it was wrong.

At the end of the day, Kirk stole a scrapheap ship so he could rescue his friend, knew what he was doing was wrong, and was prepared to face the consequences. Burnham staged a mutiny and attempted to fire on the ship of a foreign power - somehow ludicrously believing that firing first on Klingons was going to STOP a war?!?!? If she'd actually succeeded in firing first T'Kuvma would have instantly destroyed them and used their attack on him as legitimate justification to start attacking the Federation. When Burnham was being sentenced she gave no indication that she ever thought what she did was wrong, and in fact makes a speech about how she still thought what she did was right.

[JadedDM]

First, the ship they stole was actually going to be decommissioned (i.e. scrapped)

So Kirk stealing Federation property and then destroying it isn't as big a deal, because it was going to be destroyed anyway?

Spoiler: Discovery Spoilers

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In that case, Burnham's actions aren't that big a deal, because the Klingons wanted to start a war anyway. A war was going to happen regardless of whether they fired first or not.

I don't see any difference here. It's the exact same logic.

When Burnham was being sentenced she gave no indication that she ever thought what she did was wrong,

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So why did she plead guilty on all counts?

[Olinser]

So Kirk stealing Federation property and then destroying it isn't as big a deal, because it was going to be destroyed anyway?

Spoiler: Discovery Spoilers

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In that case, Burnham's actions aren't that big a deal, because the Klingons wanted to start a war anyway. A war was going to happen regardless of whether they fired first or not.

I don't see any difference here. It's the exact same logic.

Spoiler: Discovery Spoilers

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So why did she plead guilty on all counts?

No, its still a big deal, but Kirk at least had somewhat logical reasons. The movie SHOULD have ended with him being offered the option of court-martial or 'retiring' to spare Starfleet from having to publicly court-martial one of their most famous officers. Then DS9 should have done a time travel episode that established that in retirement Kirk and Spock used a pen name and secretly co-wrote Vulcan Love Slave.

But as I said, they had basically written themselves into a corner and wanted to do more TOS movies, so they had to get Kirk back as the Captain somehow. Stupid reason, but they did it.

And seriously? Not a big deal?

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You don't see a difference between firing first on a fanatic that is TRYING to provoke a war, and being attacked and defending yourselves? Because that's a HUGE difference, especially when we're talking about encounters between large states.

Burnham's logic is ludicrous. She wants to prevent a war with the Klingons.... by firing on a Klingon ship explicitly trying to provoke a war. The Federation firing first was EXACTLY what T'Kuvma was hoping for, and the reason he waited so long before attacking them. With T'Kuvma firing first the Federation was defending themselves against an aggressive fanatic that didn't have the backing of the Klingon Council. If the Federation had opened fire first and killed him the Klingons would have invaded the next day.

And the way she did it was even worse. She physically assaulted her captain and outright lied to the crew about what they were doing. Kirk was totally upfront with the crew about what he was doing and the expected consequences of their actions.

And yeah. She pled guilty because there was overwhelming, unambiguous evidence that she did exactly what they said she did, and there is no legal defense she can mount against the charges. So a trial was pointless, she was guilty of the charges and everybody knew it.

The idea that any other captain would accept her serving under them as an officer at all, much less as their 2nd in command, is ridiculous.

[Maelstrom]

Since we know her punishment is waived immediately so she can be assigned to the Discovery as its XO, yes, she has no consequences.

You must be joking.

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Yeah. Life imprisonment! Never mind, no need to actually do that. Now go be the 2nd in command of a starship and we'll just forget about it.

Seriously i wouldn't trust her peeling potatoes in the kitchen, much less as an XO.

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1. We do not know the time period between her trial and the events in the teaser trailer. != Immediately waived punishment
2. We do not know the events leading up to her being transferred to the Discovery. There may be a valid reason to commute/alter the sentence.
3. Watching the teaser trailer, She is never made out to be the XO, quite the opposite, in every scene she is out of official uniform, save one where she is wearing silver,
rather than gold (not command staff). NOTE: As there is no timeline, we still do not know what order the events are in, this scene, where she is in silver, could very well be a flashback.
4. I do agree, she is definitely not XO material as her decisions show in the "2-part TV movie prologue". As shown, there is no reasonable justification for her to lose her shizbit as portrayed and she comes off as a loose canon, quite possibly valuable to a mission, but no the rock steady counterpart needed as an executive officer (one that she was made out to be in the first 10 minutes of the show);

I've not seen the script, and I doubt any of us have, limiting our ability to judge the series in it's entirety. In my opinion, it's still entertaining TV (ST: DSC), despite several issues I may have with it. Time will tell and it's certainly paid off for other series where the pilot episode was less than stellar.

EDIT: On topic. Watched the first two episodes of Orville and am not yet convinced. It's interesting, but not? I cannot quite put my finger on it quite yet. I can say that I have a *really* hard time taking Seth McFarland serious, that may be part of the issue. On to episode 3 to see if I can firm up my opinions...

[Rogar Demonblud]

The studio has explicitly stated that Burnham will be the XO of the Discovery. So the only question now is 'do you trust the studio to know what they're talking about?'. Since they seem to think they have the first black lead in Star Trek history here, I don't trust these people with the concept of 'fire is hot'.

What consequences will we see? She pleads guilty in episode 2, reports to new ship next week. Yes, they can say she went to prison. They also said she's a professional, well-trained officer. But they keep showing us the opposite.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

And I said it was a stupid resolution to the plot when it happened, almost all of movie Trek after Wrath of Khan is REALLY bad.

To be fair though, absolutely all of movie Trek before Wrath of Khan is really bad as well.

Plus the best movie is of course First Contact. I will fight anyone over that, just not with holographic bullets set to deadly.

[Maelstrom]

The studio has explicitly stated that Burnham will be the XO of the Discovery. So the only question now is 'do you trust the studio to know what they're talking about?'. Since they seem to think they have the first black lead in Star Trek history here, I don't trust these people with the concept of 'fire is hot'.

What consequences will we see? She pleads guilty in episode 2, reports to new ship next week. Yes, they can say she went to prison. They also said she's a professional, well-trained officer. But they keep showing us the opposite.

Looking around, I can find no direct reference to her as XO of the USS Discovery. Plenty of references to her as the XO of the Shenzhou, to her being cast as the XO on Star Trek: Discovery (not of THE Discovery), etc etc, but none explicitly as the XO beyond the first two episodes. IF that does happen, I'll be right there with you; I can see no reason she'd be put back in that position (OK, Kirk got plenty of leeway, Paris, etc -- hated that they did that too!).

I'll keep looking around a bit, but just in case, do you have a link directly from the studio?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I've watched the first two episodes of The Orville, I hereby accept is as part of the Star trek lineup, similar in status to Galaxy Quest.

[Palanan]

I just watched the third episode of Orville, and loved it.

This is somewhat qualified, because I don't like the blue-collar crudity that seems to be an undercurrent in this show; I especially didn't appreciate the scene with the giant amoeba and the doctor. That's not my style of humor, and it's the main thing I don't like so far.

But fortunately, there's plenty else to laugh at--from the perfectly timed tumbleweed to the dancing bandito, as well as the near-constant back-and-forth between Mercer and his XO. (Ex-wife XO? XWFO?) The show is goofy and I love it.

And yet, the third episode goes out on a limb, and does something that previous incarnations of Trek often tried: to make a meaningful, relevant story about a comtemporary topic, packaged in science fiction format. Not only did Orville do a decent job of it (within their rather goofy parameters) but they pulled it off better than some episodes of actual Trek.

Spoiler: The Quotable Moclan

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That said, it was obvious as soon as the Great Author was mentioned that he would turn out to be female. But the actual reveal was very nicely done.

As for Seth McFarlane, I had barely heard of him before this show, and I still don't have much sense of what else he's done. But he clicks for me as Ed Mercer. Like the admiral said in the pilot, he isn't anyone's first choice, but he putters through as best as he can.

Is this grand, soaring science fiction? Hardly; but it's not meant to be. It's meant to be fun, and so far I'm enjoying it.

[Chen]

I might have missed something but how did they actually find the author? The captain sent out parameters to scan for, so were those just parameters for female Moclans? And it just happened that the only one on the planet was their most famous author?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Chen
I might have missed something but how did they actually find the author? The captain sent out parameters to scan for, so were those just parameters for female Moclans? And it just happened that the only one on the planet was their most famous author?

I don’t think they were scanning for the author per se, just female Moclans. The fact that the female they found happened to be the author was just icing.

And my impression was that they found a number of females. Not sure why they chose the one who turned out to be the author; my only guess is that she was the nearest to the trial.

Originally Posted by Palanan, p. 6 of Discovery thread
…lying, physical assault and usurpation of command….

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II, p. 4 of Orville thread
…lying, physical assault and usurpation of command….

I suppose I’m flattered.

[Mando Knight]

As for Seth McFarlane, I had barely heard of him before this show, and I still don't have much sense of what else he's done. But he clicks for me as Ed Mercer. Like the admiral said in the pilot, he isn't anyone's first choice, but he putters through as best as he can.

He's most famous for being the creator of Family Guy and American Dad!, as well as one of the recurring voice actors on Robot Chicken (such as Palpatine in the Robot Chicken Star Wars specials).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mando Knight
He's most famous for being the creator of Family Guy and American Dad….

I’ve seen commercials for the first one, and the DVDs from when Sam’s Club used to carry those.

Wasn’t there a Family Guy Star Wars special or something?

Originally Posted by Mando Knight
…Palpatine in the Robot Chicken Star Wars specials….

Now there’s a credit I can respect.

[Tyndmyr]

I might have missed something but how did they actually find the author? The captain sent out parameters to scan for, so were those just parameters for female Moclans? And it just happened that the only one on the planet was their most famous author?

Seemed to be female, yes. It was a very convenient revelation for our protaganists, but...I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

[Chen]

Seemed to be female, yes. It was a very convenient revelation for our protaganists, but...I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

It's just that the coincidence was the ONLY part of bringing in a female Moclan that even could have convinced any of them. I do agree in the end it made no difference, but it feels shoddy to begin with.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

Originally Posted by Chen
It's just that the coincidence was the ONLY part of bringing in a female Moclan that even could have convinced any of them. I do agree in the end it made no difference, but it feels shoddy to begin with.

I think they wanted to show just how deeply rooted the conviction was in Moclan society. Remember, every individual on the jury was male, and not everyone puts a high value on literary figures.

The coincidence was very dramatic (and a little predictable) but I doubt if it was the only coincidence that would have convinced the jury. The Moclans are apparently hardcore industrialists and arms merchants, so if their top weapons designer was revealed as secretly being female, that might have had a little more of an impact. But that's pure speculation.

Also, as far as some of the discussions of Moclan biology earlier in this thread—if there are natural females, it makes no sense for the males to be effectively androgynous, since there would be no reason for natural males to have all of the extremely complex structures and hormonal pathways required to gestate an egg.

I’m thinking the only reason that makes sense is some hardcore genetic engineering in their past—probably from males who wanted to improve the species by cutting out the weak females altogether. Since they’ve run roughshod over their planet in the service of the military-industrial complex, it would follow that they’d be just as willing to steamroll their own genome in the service of some uber-masculine ideal.

[Pex]

Seemed to be female, yes. It was a very convenient revelation for our protaganists, but...I think it was interesting that ultimately, the stroke of luck didn't win the day. So, it doesn't really end up being a deus ex machina, despite being very coincidental.

Yeah, it would have been easy to keep the baby female. I was half-expecting at the end of the show they would reveal that the child remained female, fooling the planet, and have her pretend to be male when necessary in the future until an opportune time to reveal the truth. I'm almost glad they didn't go through with it out of spite. I was getting a bit annoyed with everyone trying to convince Bortus not to do it.

I'll be interested in how the crew reacts when they inevitably encounter a female-dominated planet where males are enslaved, killed after procreation, and/or eaten. How accepting will they be of that planet's culture?

[Chen]

I'll be interested in how the crew reacts when they inevitably encounter a female-dominated planet where males are enslaved, killed after procreation, and/or eaten. How accepting will they be of that planet's culture?

Probably the same as in this episode? That is, not accepting at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

A planet of preying mantises? Definitely interesting, in a 'watch from the next planet over' way.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, it would have been easy to keep the baby female. I was half-expecting at the end of the show they would reveal that the child remained female, fooling the planet, and have her pretend to be male when necessary in the future until an opportune time to reveal the truth. I'm almost glad they didn't go through with it out of spite. I was getting a bit annoyed with everyone trying to convince Bortus not to do it.

I'll be interested in how the crew reacts when they inevitably encounter a female-dominated planet where males are enslaved, killed after procreation, and/or eaten. How accepting will they be of that planet's culture?

You were getting annoyed with advocating basic sapient rights?

[Pex]

You were getting annoyed with advocating basic sapient rights?

Annoyed with their righteousness. I was ok with the Captain and the Doctor declining the request. It was the insistence of the crew's manipulation that was a little grating. I felt Bortus convinced to change his mind by Rudolph was script writer arbitrariness rather than character development. I needed someone in the crew to defend the planet's culture for the operation even if he/she disagreed, and either Bortus or his mate to have been against the procedure from the beginning.

[Renegade Paladin]

The point is that Moclan culture, at least in this regard, is objectively bad. The show's been rubbing our faces in the fact that the wider Union knows little to nothing about Moclan society and biology. This is what's probably only the first instance of that coming around to bite them. A non-Moclan crewmember offering a defense of forcing the procedure on an infant would say more about that member of the crew than about the defensibility of the Moclan practice.

[Kislath]

Okay, tonight's episode was pretty good, although a near-direct ripoff of the classic Trek episode "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky." It was better than the original, so I'm happy to forgive it.

So, giant spaceship, adrift for thousands of years, populated by people who have forgotten they're on a ship. So far so good.

( I myself once tried to run a PbP D&D game here in the Playground using the same premise, with the characters living on a giant bio-ship and gradually noticing as they leveled up that things were somehow off a bit. I haven't given up on that. )

The religious theocracy part was a bit irksome, but it worked.

It's plain to see now that the Union doesn't have a Prime Directive. LOL! I wonder how many, er, Doranians? went crazy when they opened up the moon-roof.

[SuperPanda]

Got a chance to see episode 4 and even as someone who has had a hard time getting behind the pevious episodes this one felt solidly good. The moments which are suppose to be jokes still feel stupid and tacked on - they also seem to be happening less. The Awkward character humor works very well (even if it feels like retreading Data and Word jokes - they still work well in the show).

This was a solid episode. pretty much the only character who still seems to have no redeeming element for me is the best-friend helmsman. Everyone else has times where they annoy (the Captain more than not), times when they are amusing (the robot more than not) and times when they are convincingly real (the Doctor more than not).

This is the first episode that felt like a real Trek episode rather than a LARP using a Trek-like setting. I legitimately liked this one.

[Bowerbird]

I wonder how many, er, Doranians? went crazy when they opened up the moon-roof.

I'll admit, a part of me wanted the immediate reaction of the ship-people, beyond sheer surprise, to be terror and violent riots, and just have it ruin the moment. Also evidently Liam Neeson owed McFarlane a favour? How long do you think before we get Patrick Stewart in a cameo?

[Renegade Paladin]

This episode was intense. The subplot with Bortus and Klyden is still on, but the main plot of the episode... wow.

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Alara just getting shot out of hand. And the execution by crowd of that poor guy was BRUTAL. I'm honestly surprised they did it.

[BannedInSchool]

Huh, surprisingly good old school SF in the latest episode. Abbreviated at the end and missing developing the guest aliens' reaction to events, but overall acceptable. Most of the story was just wondering what was going to happen next as there wasn't a lot of tension between known possible outcomes, but in the moment it was engaging enough.

[The New Bruceski]

Looking at the episode numbers, this one was second. I assume they shifted them around because they wanted to show reviewers the one from last week with the kid's trial and were only releasing the "first three". That explains some of the clunkiness like how their marital relations are strained but that isn't addressed at all later (patched in from a later episode) and the doctor's relationship with the blob; the two scenes we saw of it were in reverse order so it feels odd that he was explicit and then just asking her out.

[Renegade Paladin]

Looking at the episode numbers, this one was second. I assume they shifted them around because they wanted to show reviewers the one from last week with the kid's trial and were only releasing the "first three". That explains some of the clunkiness like how their marital relations are strained but that isn't addressed at all later (patched in from a later episode) and the doctor's relationship with the blob; the two scenes we saw of it were in reverse order so it feels odd that he was explicit and then just asking her out.

This one HAS to be the fourth one, because the baby is in a bassinet at the foot of their bed in the opening scene, so it has to be post-baby. The baby was hatched at the very end of the second episode, and the third opens with the rest of the crew going gaga over her immediately post-birth. This one was most definitely the fourth; the existence of the kid solidifies the chronology.

[SuperPanda]

Not only that but the Jello's conversation has a lot more heart in it this time - before it was immature bravado. Here it was an immature request for companionship and a mature awareness of depression resulting from a feeling of isolation and loneliness.

If the show goes the next step to having the Jello give up on pursing the physical side of things and actually seeking a meaningful emotional connection Inwill be pleasantly surprised.