SEMIFINALS!! Favorite Character Tourney: #3 O-CHUL vs #2 REDCLOAK

[alwaysbebatman]

Also re: dire situation: Redcloak now casts Fortunate Fate on himself every day, most likely, as well as some other decent buffs that there's no indication he was doing back when he played Civic Leader.

Fortunate Fate is good for 10 mins per level, it would be pointless to cast it first thing in the morning. More like on the way into the dungeon...

The fact that they buff themselves with buffs that wear out and use a lot of their offensive spells as well as heal/harm in the tomb every day gives our stake-out paladins an ideal time to ambush if that should become necessary.

[Chei]

Fortunate Fate is good for 10 mins per level, it would be pointless to cast it first thing in the morning. More like on the way into the dungeon...

The fact that they buff themselves with buffs that wear out and use a lot of their offensive spells as well as heal/harm in the tomb every day gives our stake-out paladins an ideal time to ambush if that should become necessary.

Extended Fortunate Fate, at Redcloak's estimated level, is good for about six hours, as are the other buffs he cast (with some being off-panel). It was one of the first things he cast upon regaining spells, so it is indeed for the dungeon. That said, it's not entirely certain he wouldn't still have it long enough to get back to the village, where an ambush is certainly no longer in the cards.

But all that is mostly academic. The thing that really makes Redcloak more dangerous now is that he's got his eyes on the prize and isn't, as Xykon said, putzing around, keeping high-level paladins as unsupervised prisoners in his tower while he rearranges the furniture in a ruined city.

[goodpeople25]

Re: citation Redcloak is now using his backup holy symbol as his main symbol, and carries Xykon's phylactery on his person. I'm not saying he'd bust it out willy-nilly, but it's an option for him.
Also re: dire situation: Redcloak now casts Fortunate Fate on himself every day, most likely, as well as some other decent buffs that there's no indication he was doing back when he played Civic Leader.

There's some sense to that, but I don't think it's the only possibility. Also isn't the design back to the original in recent strips?

Anyway while it's a factor I would be careful of overselling the whole back in the game thing.

[Sylian]

And in-print at FLGS won (barely) over Kickstarter PDF's.

I wonder what it would have looked like if the O-Chul story were available on Gumshoe. I think he would've won then.

Still, Redcloak is a worthy winner and (in my opinion) easily a top 3 character in the story.

[alwaysbebatman]

Extended Fortunate Fate, at Redcloak's estimated level, is good for about six hours, as are the other buffs he cast (with some being off-panel). It was one of the first things he cast upon regaining spells, so it is indeed for the dungeon. That said, it's not entirely certain he wouldn't still have it long enough to get back to the village, where an ambush is certainly no longer in the cards.

Ah, "Extended," I should have checked the source before commenting. Thanks for clarifying.

But all that is mostly academic. The thing that really makes Redcloak more dangerous now is that he's got his eyes on the prize and isn't, as Xykon said, putzing around, keeping high-level paladins as unsupervised prisoners in his tower while he rearranges the furniture in a ruined city.

I think that trusting what Xykon says about Redcloak and vice versa is pretty fraught, as they have a lot of secret agendas from one another. And I think a lot more of the blame for O-Chul goes to Xykon, anyhow. Redcloak, after all, isn't the one who showed a prisoner his entire spellbook "one saving throw at a time."

[2D8HP]

I wonder what it would have looked like if the O-Chul story were available on Gumshoe. I think he would've won then....

Gumshoe???

[LadyEowyn]

Gumroad.

And if - as some people have claimed - O-Chul is even better in the Kickstarter story than he is in the strip, I find it easy to think he could have won if that one was available for purchase to everyone.

I want that story even more now than I did before, and I've been wishing I could buy it ever since it was released.

[Chei]

I think that trusting what Xykon says about Redcloak and vice versa is pretty fraught, as they have a lot of secret agendas from one another. And I think a lot more of the blame for O-Chul goes to Xykon, anyhow. Redcloak, after all, isn't the one who showed a prisoner his entire spellbook "one saving throw at a time."

I tend to give it some credit because we saw the changes in behavior from Redcloak himself. He lost an eye and gained perspective, etc. etc. Imprisoning O-Chul long past the point of his usefulness was Redcloak's fault, not Xykon's. It is one of the stupid risks that Redcloak now acknowledges are stupid. Xykon being dumb enough to play with the prisoner is one more way that backfired, but it's ultimately a subordinate issue to Redcloak's passivity.

He has, from that point, been far more proactive in dealing with Xykon and his enemies, and his new level 9 spell slot(s) are practically just the icing on that character development cake.

[2D8HP]

...I want that story even more now than I did before, and I've been wishing I could buy it ever since it was released.

Me too. And all the content that hasn't been printed yet (I'm sure that those who are partial to other mediums would like the print extras as well).

[B. Dandelion]

he thing that really makes Redcloak more dangerous now is that he's got his eyes on the prize and isn't, as Xykon said, putzing around, keeping high-level paladins as unsupervised prisoners in his tower while he rearranges the furniture in a ruined city.

I tend to give it some credit because we saw the changes in behavior from Redcloak himself. He lost an eye and gained perspective, etc. etc. Imprisoning O-Chul long past the point of his usefulness was Redcloak's fault, not Xykon's. It is one of the stupid risks that Redcloak now acknowledges are stupid. Xykon being dumb enough to play with the prisoner is one more way that backfired, but it's ultimately a subordinate issue to Redcloak's passivity.

Wait, so are you arguing that Redcloak has learned it was a mistake to build Gobbotopia? He stuck around in Azure City because he feared without alliances, the hobgoblins couldn't truly hold the city for long at all. In order to do that he needed to lie to Xykon about the reasons for staying put, which was where O-Chul came in as he had a plausible line of argument that O-Chul had useful information about the next Gate. He's never suggested there was maybe a different way to go about doing it, and I honestly don't think establishing Gobbotopia is among his regrets.

He does cite O-Chul as his reasoning for no longer taking "stupid risks," but I don't think that necessarily means he's come around to the same perspective as Xykon about "rearranging furniture". That wasn't what he was doing. The "stupid risk" he later took a pass on was more along the lines of "rising to the bait".

(Also, Xykon's final dialogue here seems to suggest the constant deathtraps he put O-Chul through was increasing his level, which was basically all but confirmed by Hinjo later when he noted Lien and O-Chul had both gained levels. If O-Chul had been at a slightly lower level, maybe Redcloak wouldn't have gone down with such embarrassing ease.)

[alwaysbebatman]

Hmm. He kept O-Chul past the point of usefulness to whom? O-Chul was very useful at convincing Xykon to let him take the time to start building a nation.

I think any denigration of the time it took to found Gobbotopia is either coming from Xykon, or stuff Redcloak says to mislead Xykon about how he actually feels, and besides which is clearly under duress: "the going rate would be half an eye."

When Xykon isn't around he expresses great pride in his nation building effort. The only thing he says that indicates a change in perspective is when he tells Ho Thanh that he no longer can be taunted into taking a stupid risk.

ETA: Or, y'know, what the Dandelion said.

[Peelee]

If O-Chul had been at a slightly lower level, maybe Redcloak wouldn't have gone down with such embarrassing ease.)

Fully refreshed and armored vs. naked guy with a broken bar, and already a level discrepancy in the goblin's favor.

Yeah, I'm gonna say that anything O-Chul may have gained didn't help in that fight.

[Chei]

I'm not suggesting that Redcloak regrets establishing Gobbotopia. I'm not saying Gobbotopia was a stupid risk. Imprisoning a paladin and keeping him in the tower, though, does seem to have been a stupid risk. Otherwise I'm not sure how to parse the statement "But you have one of your brothers to thank for its futility now." As a response to Thanh's goading, the logic of that statement is "I learned not to take stupid risks from a paladin."

Redcloak had a point when he said that Gobbotopia needed allies and recognition. Did Redcloak personally need to make those negotiations, though? O-Chul was kept as a prisoner so that Redcloak could personally stick around and oversee the birth of that nation, but he was ultimately able to pass on leadership smoothly to Jirix, kill the Resistance, and crush Tsukiko inside of what, a week or two?

Like, Redcloak definitely got a benefit out of keeping O-Chul; I should have just said that the reason O-Chul was kept so long was for Redcloak's personal sake, not that he was useless. Did that benefit outweigh the price, though? I think the fiasco turned out badly enough for Redcloak that he could call it a stupid risk.

[alwaysbebatman]

Absolutely he considers it to have been a stupid risk. Maybe he has different ideas in his he would have handled it in retrospect.

But "rearranging furniture" and "eyes on the prize"? Those are Xykon's words reflecting Xykon's perspective and Xykon's priorities. Just because Redcloak pretends to share them, don't make the mistake of taking that at face value.

[Chei]

Absolutely he considers it to have been a stupid risk. Maybe he has different ideas in his he would have handled it in retrospect.

But "rearranging furniture" and "eyes on the prize"? Those are Xykon's words reflecting Xykon's perspective and Xykon's priorities. Just because Redcloak pretends to share them, don't make the mistake of taking that at face value.

Did Xykon even say "eyes on the prize"? That might have just been me. And while I acknowledge that I maybe presented the argument in an unfavorable light to you, I don't think I really suggested Redcloak was suddenly a disciple of Xykon's. He's become more cautious and focused in his own methodical way.

[Dr.Zero]

The stupid risk, maybe, was not checking if the prison was solid enough.
And not putting a couple of guards (aside the MITD) to control what the paladin was doing the whole day.
In short: underestimating the enemy (which happened to be a high level character, even if prisoner).

(And not having a simple "antilife shell" or some other quick defensive spell ready to be casted and resorting to a disintegrate).

[Goblin_Priest]

The stupid risk, maybe, was not checking if the prison was solid enough.
And not putting a couple of guards (aside the MITD) to control what the paladin was doing the whole day.
In short: underestimating the enemy (which happened to be a high level character, even if prisoner).

(And not having a simple "antilife shell" or some other quick defensive spell ready to be casted and resorting to a disintegrate).

Yea, I'll go with this. Gobbotopia needed Redcloak. I have no idea what level Jyrix is, but by the way everyone acts, I suspect he's much lower leveled than Redcloak.

Redcloak was not just idling around. He was moping up the resistance. He pretty much single-handedly defeated them and retrieved the phylactery (once he had its position), all of these monsters that fought seemed to have been his summons.

Redcloak was caught flat-footed and unprepared. O'Chul is definately badass, but I'd think it silly to expect Redcloak to be defeated so easily once again. And besides: O'Chul failed to kill Redcloak. Being able to get away to fight again, all on your own, is an important ability. Without TMitD, O'Chul would be dead now. All of his gear wouldn't have changed that.

[martianmister]

The stupid risk, maybe, was not checking if the prison was solid enough.
And not putting a couple of guards (aside the MITD) to control what the paladin was doing the whole day.
In short: underestimating the enemy (which happened to be a high level character, even if prisoner).

This. They all (including Xykon) underestimated O-Chul and paid the price.

[Chei]

Redcloak was not just idling around. He was moping up the resistance. He pretty much single-handedly defeated them and retrieved the phylactery (once he had its position), all of these monsters that fought seemed to have been his summons.

See, that's the thing. He did all of that after he came down with a bad case of Smite-Evil-In-Eye. Before that, he was effectively idling around. That's what I've been trying to say is the difference brought on by the risk of taking O-Chul prisoner for so long to stick around. Crushing the Resistance and Tsukiko are absolutely things Jirix wouldn't be capable of due to his level, but is a negotiation with Cliffport? Overseeing the nation on the day-to-day? These things do not require combat ability.

[B. Dandelion]

Fully refreshed and armored vs. naked guy with a broken bar, and already a level discrepancy in the goblin's favor.

Yeah, I'm gonna say that anything O-Chul may have gained didn't help in that fight.

Or the fight after? Having a few extra levels and HP might have helped survive some of those Meteor Swarms, or provided a helpful will save bonus to help shake off the Hold Person. Xykon immediately assigned all of the blame for that debacle on Redcloak, but he may have made the situation worse himself.

See, that's the thing. He did all of that after he came down with a bad case of Smite-Evil-In-Eye. Before that, he was effectively idling around. That's what I've been trying to say is the difference brought on by the risk of taking O-Chul prisoner for so long to stick around. Crushing the Resistance and Tsukiko are absolutely things Jirix wouldn't be capable of due to his level, but is a negotiation with Cliffport? Overseeing the nation on the day-to-day? These things do not require combat ability.

Am I odd for thinking that the task of nation-building was probably a pretty immense one, and that Redcloak is likely to have lot of ranks in Knowledge and Diplomacy and the like that would be helpful in things like setting up infrastructure and negotiations? Moreover that the process of doing all of those things takes time, and having an epic-level lich squatting in their territory would be an excellent deterrent to forces who might wish to quash the nation while it was still vulnerable and being established? This scenario where he wasn't needed, knew or should have known he wasn't needed, but stuck around anyway, delaying the Plan and lying to Xykon while also keeping alive a high-level paladin, all for completely nebulous reasons... to me it sounds very strange and inexplicably out-of-character. He underestimated O-Chul and paid a price for it, but I really think you're trying to stretch one line of dialogue into the shape of a completely different planet.

[Peelee]

Or the fight after? Having a few extra levels and HP might have helped survive some of those Meteor Swarms, or provided a helpful will save bonus to help shake off the Hold Person.

...no? O-Chul vs Xykon would be a curbstomp on O-Chul. I love the man, but I'm not blind to his limitations.

[Chei]

Am I odd for thinking that the task of nation-building was probably a pretty immense one, and that Redcloak is likely to have lot of ranks in Knowledge and Diplomacy and the like that would be helpful in things like setting up infrastructure and negotiations? Moreover that the process of doing all of those things takes time, and having an epic-level lich squatting in their territory would be an excellent deterrent to forces who might wish to quash the nation while it was still vulnerable and being established? This scenario where he wasn't needed, knew or should have known he wasn't needed, but stuck around anyway, delaying the Plan and lying to Xykon while also keeping alive a high-level paladin, all for completely nebulous reasons... to me it sounds very strange and inexplicably out-of-character. He underestimated O-Chul and paid a price for it, but I really think you're trying to stretch one line of dialogue into the shape of a completely different planet.

Is Redcloak the only goblin with Knowledge and Diplomacy? He shouldn't be. The hobgoblin civilization is very large and should have its own ruling class. They certainly still had an army of 20,000, twice the standing army of the city they just conquered, as a deterrent. Nation-building is certainly an immense task, but I feel that you're making the same mistake a PC would make - writing off the wider population as helpless kittens blinking in the sunlight.

Regardless, I don't believe I said he was never needed. I believe he overstayed. Could he, just theoretically, have executed O-Chul, crushed the Resistance, and found a plausible reason to murder Tsukiko a month earlier, handing over the reigns to Jirix on his way out? Gobbotopia was already recognized by other nations (unless he got 17 nations to recognize it in a month) at the time. Jirix referred to himself as a peacetime leader once he took over. Could he have achieved the same if Redcloak left the city even just half a year earlier?

I don't feel that I'm making too extreme a statement here, but you definitely seem to be inflating it.

[StLordeth]

Aw damn I missed this one, both of these are top 5 characters for me, but Redcloak is a fair winner. Best villain by far imo.

[alwaysbebatman]

Chei, I think the real question is: did the incident with O-Chul taking his eye and Xykon not permitting him to regenerate change his priorities and that led to him taking steps to move on from Gobbotopia, and murdering Tsukiko, and destroying the resistance single handed? Or were those all things he would have done at that point anyway?

I don't think there is anything that points to Redcloak changing his priorities due to Vaarsuvius and O-Chul's attack. As opposed to simply moving on to a new stage of his plans as planned. Or in Tsukiko's case, taking action because his hand was forced.

Do you see any examples of things he had planned to do, but then didn't because of changed priorities? The only example I see of Team Evil not doing something because it might be a time wasting distraction from their ultimate goals was when they didn't take the time to mop up the Order at Girard's Pyramid, and Redcloak argued strenuously against that course of action.

[Jasdoif]

Fully refreshed and armored vs. naked guy with a broken bar, and already a level discrepancy in the goblin's favor.

Yeah, I'm gonna say that anything O-Chul may have gained didn't help in that fight.

Improvised weapon vs armored target sounds like exactly when you should appreciate every single point of base attack bonus you have.

[Peelee]

Improvised weapon vs armored target sounds like exactly when you should appreciate every single point of base attack bonus you have.

Look, this was a perfectly fine debate before you started coming in here with your good points and reasonable arguments.

[Ruck]

Redcloak had a point when he said that Gobbotopia needed allies and recognition. Did Redcloak personally need to make those negotiations, though? O-Chul was kept as a prisoner so that Redcloak could personally stick around and oversee the birth of that nation, but he was ultimately able to pass on leadership smoothly to Jirix, kill the Resistance, and crush Tsukiko inside of what, a week or two?

I mean, he did all those things in a relatively short amount of time, but it took him nearly a year to build Gobbotopia to the point where he was comfortable handing it off. And Redcloak, at least, does seem to believe it was necessary for him to personally stay and oversee it. (Indeed, Jirix didn't even seem to know what exactly the nation-building effort would entail; I doubt any goblins or hobgoblins lower on the totem pole would.)

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't believe there's evidence to say that Redcloak was *idling* when off-panel. Just because he was *stalling* his leave doesn't mean he was doing nothing.

Does he have other people who could do nation-building? Maybe... but then again... all those hobgoblins were already there before he arrived, and they seemingly didn't do it. If Redcloak is lvl 17+, and Jyrix is lvl 6-12, there can be a large discrepancy in pertinent skill checks. Redcloak can not only afford a lot more ranks, but also likely has higher mental stats to begin with, plus better magic items to boost them, possibly more feats like Skill Focus, and possibly buffs and enchantments that can help.

I think that Redcloak was vital to the creation of Gobbotopia as we know it, and not just by organizing its conquest. Jyrix sounds like he would do a fine job at maintaining whatever Redcloak hands over to him, but not like he would have been able to improve upon it. Redcloak left once he was no longer necessary.

Also, how long do you figure Jyrix would have lasted without the epic cloister effect? Something tells me the elven (and resistance) magical aptitudes are far greater than the hobgoblins'. Though civilization as a whole stops making any sense when D&D magic is considered, consolidating their hold on Azure City with such magical disadvantage would not seem feasible.

[Bobb]

Gumroad.

And if - as some people have claimed - O-Chul is even better in the Kickstarter story than he is in the strip, I find it easy to think he could have won if that one was available for purchase to everyone.

I want that story even more now than I did before, and I've been wishing I could buy it ever since it was released.

Considering a good handful of redcloak voters both mentioned being torn on where to cast their vote and apologized for not having read said work, I agree on both counts.