OOTS #1098 - The Discussion Thread

[Ironsmith]

True.
Elan's the heart, Roy's the brain...
Durkon is more like the stuff that keeps the whole mess together.
What's it called...
The keel.

Or you could go with the allegorical construct of a heart being multi-chambered, and thus, two or more people could technically do the job.

Really, though, I think at this point it's pretty clear the Order is a clear-cut case of True Companions, and that it'd be impossible to remove one of them without some functionality in the group being lost. Hell, I'm pretty sure even Belkar's going to be mourned if something happens to him (sorry, "when", not "if"). They all contribute on an intellectual level (Roy being the one that ultimately makes the judgement calls, Haley being the cunning, Elan and Durkon being different aspects of a moral compass, V being cold logic and Belkar occasionally chipping in with malicious-but-effective solutions), on a physical level (no shortage of analyses there), and an emotional level (they ALL contribute to holding the group together: Durkon's being showcased now, but in Elan's case, everyone was willing to go back for him; Haley brings strong emotional support to both Elan and Roy; V seems to be particularly influenced by Elan and Haley, and in turn, has strong ties to them both; Belkar's been very good for Roy lately, as well as supporting Elan and, in his own vitriolic way, Vaarsuvius; and as the leader, Roy's steadily developed into the type of person who takes "keep the group functioning coherently" as both his day job and a few hobbies.)

Here is another angle to consider:

What if Odin gave the prophecy knowing Hels gambit- and he wanted to give as many Dwarves as possible an honorable death before the world gets unmade.

Dundundun~!

I could see this being an aspect of it, but not the whole reason. Something to bear in mind is that, in the OotS universe (and Dungeons & Dragons in general), death isn't the end of a character's existence or even their influence on the mortal world. If the world does get unmade, it would make sense that Odin would want to make sure as few dwarves as possible died dishonorable deaths before the plug was pulled, especially when total oblivion is the other option... and even that might be done with the intent of putting them back after the whole issue gets resolved (instead of leaving it at Hel's discretion).

But that's assuming the world does get unmade. It's possible that he's intentionally bringing about honorable deaths to dwarves who would have otherwise gone to Hel, and setting events in motion to make Hel's scheme ultimately fail.

[Katrover_Swatroad]

"He didn't blame me." Awww, I could almost like Belkar for that...almost.

More character development! Come to think of it, that was the turning point, wasn't it? That was when Belkar really started thinking about others besides himself (and his cat).

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

[alwaysbebatman]

Miko thwarted Xykon in Azure City.

No. A million times no. Miko does not get credit for "thwarting" Xykon when she in fact prevented Xykon from being defeated by Soon.

[Gift Jeraff]

No. A million times no. Miko does not get credit for "thwarting" Xykon when she in fact prevented Xykon from being defeated by Soon.

The truth known to the readers doesn't matter in context to Roy's line. The Order thinks Xykon defeated or was about to defeat Soon's ghost and a living paladin made the call to destroy the Gate.

[2D8HP]

Yep, he's slowly growing a conscience...like a tumor.

It's NAHT A TUMUHR!

Well done.

Stuff like that is ultimately why I read the threads!

[goodpeople25]

The OOTS only thwarted Xykon twice (Dungeon of Dorukan and Girard's Pyramid). Miko thwarted Xykon in Azure City, although the OOTS believes it was O-Chul.

Okay. Anyway, while yeah the OOTS were pretty much just involved in the surrounding events and didn't take a direct active role with the thwarting they did still participate on the Azure city side of the battle and I don't think it's meant quite in a credit/glory sense. It's still a huge stretch to say on it's own but I think in context it works okay, as it's tied in with two others that were more direct and there is the affiliation with Azure city.

As for who did the thwarting I'll just say I disagree and confirm that that was the part that threw me off.
Edit: With your next post I guess I'll need to ask for re clarification. As the O Chul part you edited in contradicts the "what the order thinks happened" angle for me.

[FireJustice]

Lame.
LAME.
LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME.

It could be cute. It could be awesome.

But, the entire point in this comic is

A entire prophecy to make a party "to believe in themselves".

Yeah, sure.
Only Durkon, if you say so.

on with the plot already, this arc is giving me cramps

[Anymage]

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

Less than a year of being slightly less than a humongous jerk does not negate his entire life before that point. I really don't think Belks will have a proper alignment shift.

Then again, when he does go, there are two main options. Either his soul will be lost in some way that leaves him outside the normal cycle of getting shuffled off to the outer planes, or he'll be one happy little sexy shoeless god of war in a plane where everybody works out their aggression by stabbing everybody else. If anything, the plane of "everybody stabs everybody else" (especially when he's one of the better stabbers) sounds more up his alley than the plane of "pure elemental chaos and giant frogs".

[Mandor]

Not an unexpected discussion, but well written. And I love Belkar's grudging minimum-possible-volume concession.

[Kish]

As for who did the thwarting I'll just say I disagree and confirm that that was the part that threw me off.
Edit: With your next post I guess I'll need to ask for re clarification. As the O Chul part you edited in contradicts the "what the order thinks happened" angle for me.

Soon thwarted Xykon in Azure City.

If one ignored Soon's existence and gave credit for thwarting Xykon to the one who destroyed the Gate, that would fit "Miko actually did it but the Order thinks O-Chul did."

But...that would make no sense.

[Jasdoif]

Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

Why is Roy stealing credit for Miko's heroics?
EDIT: Or what they think were O-Chul's heroics.

Maybe he's just confused?

[Deepbluediver]

Maybe he's just confused?

The OotS was at the battle, and Xykon didn't gain control of the gate. That's what really matters.

Edit: I believe they significantly bolstered the defenses. As Redcloak said, the plan was for Xykon to invis past the wall, kill some soldiers, zombify them, and open up a second front inside enemy lines. But he stepped in a big heaping pile of adventurers and that went right out the window.

[yldenfrei]

Well...we've already thwarted Xykon's plans three times, right?

Why is Roy stealing credit for Miko's heroics?
EDIT: Or what they think were O-Chul's heroics.

Maybe he's just confused?

Or maybe, just maybe, Roy's "we" is meant to include the OotS as well as the Azurites, since they're currently working together to stop Xykon. O-chul & Lien are still at Kraagor's Tomb watching Team Evil, right?

Re: the whole prophecy thing - I'm inclined to agree with Roy's view that it has already been fulfilled up to this point. Durkon's vampirification and subsequent subservience to Hel has already put into motion events that would chuck all dwarves to... well, Hel. That and physically coming back to his homeland and killing people too. Doesn't mean that he has to be successful or he won't be stopped. Just that he's the one bringing it about.

As for Odin's gambit, I'd like to think he also wanted to flush out Hel's plan, which requires Hel to be able to attend the Godsmoot in the first place. What I'm really curious about this is that it requires Odin to have kept tabs over the Order (or at the very least knew about Roy's Blood Oath towards Xykon, to ensure that they'll keep going after him) to be able to orchestrate this all.

[JoeyTheNeko]

he didn't blame me.
as someone with friends and family who have to deal with blame issues being hoisted on them unfairly that line cut pretty damn deep.

[alwaysbebatman]

Not an unexpected discussion, but well written. And I love Belkar's grudging minimum-possible-volume concession.

Less "grudging concession" more "denial-evading confession"...

[skaddix]

OOTS and the Azurites are on the same team at this point.

[Centaur]

And we all know that heart is the 5th element, right?

Nope, that would be boron.

[Laurana]

This was an absolutely brilliant strip. I especially loved the He didn't blame me part.

[Manty5]

More character development! Come to think of it, that was the turning point, wasn't it? That was when Belkar really started thinking about others besides himself (and his cat).

I think when Belkar finally dies, he won't be pure Chaotic Evil. Probably Chaotic Neutral (with Evil Tendencies).

People don't just change who they are in an instant. It doesn't work like that. It takes time, so you don't even know that you're changing. Until one day, you're just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened.

Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone.

Let's not forget that Rich is the only person with a vote on how Belkar ends up, and he's dropped more than a few hints toward salvation. Perhaps posthumously... but still.

[ManuelSacha]

Aaaand Belkar made me tear up a bit.
How do these stick figures manage to keep doing that?

[Sinewmire]

....waiiiiit. wait.

"Bring Death and Destruction to us all". What if they mean Cleric domains?

What if the prophecy means that Durkon (as oppsed to Durkon*) will join the party as a Vampire cleric of Thor, but with the Death and Destruction domains? If there's no clerics of Hel about it might be there's been nobody in the Dwarven lands with those domains, and they are powerful.

Could that work?

[Manty5]

We had the domain discussion last strip.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe he's just confused?

We live inside a dream.

[Quebbster]

We had the domain discussion last strip.

I Think that particular discussion has been going on ever since it was revealed Hel was Greg's patron deity. It has come into the spotlight a lot more now that the prophecy is front and center though.

[Unoriginal]

That'll do. What are Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius in this metaphor? Skin, muscle, and gut respectively? With Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy being the glands?

Nah, Beklar is the skin (easily irritated, often bruised, but still gets in the way of what could damage the rest).

[Casimir-Ivanova]

If there was only the skeleton maintainig brain and heart together, we'd be pretty boned.


Joke aside, skeleton is a nice metaphor for Durkon's role. I was about to say "bones" the first time, but I thought talking of blood system was funnier. Y'know, since it's what the vampire targeted.

Booooooooo! Boooooooo!
I need my "goddamit Barb" gif for this forum.

Also, given the amount of blood Durkon has kept in for the entire team through healing, cardiovascular system does seem quite appropriate for the dwarf.

[Goblin_Priest]

I Think that particular discussion has been going on ever since it was revealed Hel was Greg's patron deity. It has come into the spotlight a lot more now that the prophecy is front and center though.

If those are his domains (they are Nergal's, are they not? Seemed like some foreshadowing when Malack talked about it to Durkon), then it can indeed be said that, as Roy said, the prophecy is already fulfilled. For killing a bunch of Dwarves, maybe, or maybe just because he brought those domains (because otherwise, honestly, not much destruction was had). It's a somewhat ridiculously literal interpretation, but... prophecies are good for that. If Odin just wanted Durkon to be exiled, he did not "technically" lie to his cleric. He just made it sound really spooky.

But we don't really know what Durkon* is doing either. He isn't defeated yet.

[Hamste]

Nope, that would be boron.

I don't think the heart being the 5th element is that boring.

[Floret]

I don't think the heart being the 5th element is that boring.

I think this is a reference to "The Gamers 2", where the Monk in his "philosophical" rambling makes that comment.
Which, in turn, is a reference to the periodic table.

Funnily enough, it is also the name of the god of death and sleep from the German "The Dark Eye" TRPG.

[newcresty]

There is a lot of speculation about the powers of the Gods regarding what they can foresee and V's prophecy is usuallt taken as a reference point, "Why would Tiamat give tha tprophecy if it leads to the destruction of so many dragons", but we should also consider that is was the same Tiamat's oracle who gave the Ancient Black Dragon Momma the way to find V, and in that case it would be a lot easier to foresee 'if you go after V, he will kill you and everyone related to you', so i'm sticking with the thought that gods have limited power regarding prophecies, or at least Tiamat does.

That, or the oracle's power are exclusive to the question asked, as in, he can instantly see the specific event that someone is asking for, or that he wants to see (thus explaining stuff he predicts without noone asking) but it's not like he sees the whole picture, just a frame of specific event he wants to see, and imagine what it would be to check in every client whole future just in case he wipes hundred of dragons, he does check if the client is going to kill him though