What mythos have the West produced in the past 1000 years?

[Thrudd]

Lied. It's Nibelungenlied.
Although Leid fits pretty well too all things considered...

Ha. typos that turn out to be true.

[Kantaki]

Ha. typos that turn out to be true.

Those are the best kind.

And this one is especially fitting seeing that the end makes the Red Wedding look like a childrens' birthday.

No really, G.R.R. Martin has to try much harder if he wants to match that.

I really shouldn't have written that.
He might take it as a challenge.

[Anonymouswizard]

In terms of how the rest of the thread is likely to react, or what? Historically the way these things go is that a bunch of really bad thinly veiled white supremacist arguments get brought out, the rest of the posters swat them down, and eventually the thread gets locked.

Ah good, I was worried there might be more of them on the forum.

[Donnadogsoth]

I have one: Clive Barker's Hellraiser.

[Donnadogsoth]

Are we talking capital-M Mythology, Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung-style? I could name several, but they're a bit too closely related to politics and religion. The general idea of powerful people conspiring against the general population is one that's a bit safer to mention (though it does intersect with politics a lot, particularly early to mid 20th century). It crops up everywhere in literature and pop culture, from "1984" to X Files to half the "politician villains" in Marvel/DC.

If there is a Jungian/Campbellian exegesis for these various mythos I'd like to read about that, too. Are there any mythos that don't fit into the Jungian mould? Does the Pokémon mythos express anything archetypal or is it, as my superficial knowledge of it suggests, just a kiddified version of a normal menagerie run through the mill of postmodern product design?

Another sort of mythology that I've been noticing very recently is one that takes a very different form from previous myth. I'm not sure what else to call it, other than the "Coming Out" story. (Not necessarily as gay, though it can be that). It doesn't really have the structure of the classic Hero's Journey. It's not quite the same thing as a Bildungsroman or coming-of-age theme, either, though it does seem to have some superficial similarities. The main character is fighting against themselves and society (rather than an external monster like most Hero's Journeys). After a trial, both the protagonist and the society comes to accept who they are. There aren't necessarily any gurus or magical teachers to help. The main character is often on their own, or in the company of only a few others in similar straits.

Wouldn't you call that "the origin story"?

[Fawkes]

As somebody not experienced with his posts, as someone who believes in 'modern high culture' how quickly should I flee from this thread and is it a good idea to take my 'racial and cultural mixing is good' beliefs with me? Or is this more of a Darth Ultron's Railroading situation?

Last time, after some doomsaying about how we were living in a new dark age, hand-wringing about the "denial of universal principles of art, science, statecraft, and morality" and how our current cultural artifacts are "substitutes for a real culture, like existed in the Middle Ages", and a coded warning about the collapse of our 'majority identity', he ended up recommending we destroy the rocky mountains to flood Nevada or something, so that was a fun thread.

In a previous thread, he said that the world was being ruined by porn, divorce and people being gay. He really is not a fan of pornography and homosexuality. Or women dressing themselves. Then there was some anti-semitic conspiracy theory stuff and a manifesto about how he admired Russia's authoritarianism. That was not a fun thread.

Also, he double posts constantly.

[Lethologica]

I have one: Clive Barker's Hellraiser.

If that qualifies, then nearly every piece of popular fiction, literature, culture, etc. from the last two centuries does as well. I'm not saying it doesn't, but it seems like this question is very easy to answer at that point (if very difficult to answer comprehensively due to the sheer volume of relevant material).

[Telonius]

If there is a Jungian/Campbellian exegesis for these various mythos I'd like to read about that, too. Are there any mythos that don't fit into the Jungian mould? Does the Pokémon mythos express anything archetypal or is it, as my superficial knowledge of it suggests, just a kiddified version of a normal menagerie run through the mill of postmodern product design?



Wouldn't you call that "the origin story"?

Well, the Jungian mold is (by nature) pretty all-encompassing. It works extremely well to describe a lot of stories. The reason why it does, is a matter of a lot of debate. On the one hand Jung and Campbell think that it's because of a pre-existing idea or archetype that most of the culture shares, that manifests itself in stories. Other analysts consider that to be kind of pushing it, and think it's more about transmission of similar stories, and structures within the stories that are easiest to remember being the ones that get passed on.

Personally I think Campbell was onto something with his examination of shamanistic versus cyclical myths; these are the seriously, seriously old ones that we only have access to through oral traditions and the very earliest written stories. Basically, when a culture has a complete change in circumstance in which their primary way of getting energy (literally through food or more metaphorically) that event is accompanied by a new form of myth. This was evident when people moved from hunter-gatherer societies to agrarian societies. Their energy no longer came from the hunt, it came from the land and the crop. Trying to remember this without the book in front of me, so I might get this wrong; but rebirth myths were almost nonexistent in the nomadic shamanistic cultures. They only started happening when people settled down and planted crops. That's when you get things like the Osiris myth.

My own suspicion is that we've recently had a similar sort of a shift. In the modern world we have no connection to the cycle of rebirth and seasons, at least not as far as it relates to how we get our food and energy. For most people living in cities, as far as they're concerned grain and meat come from a grocery store or a restaurant. So the day-to-day struggles we have bear extremely little resemblance to the circumstances that gave rise to rebirth myths. They're less meaningful to people, so they connect less to them. Something like the "coming-out" story might be the next wave of mythology. (I like Origin Story as well; though in comic books they don't necessarily get accepted by society afterwards).

EDIT: Speaking of, had to run to the grocery store...

Anyway, I have seen a few examples of this sort of story. Something like Disney's Frozen is a particularly interesting case for me, since it has two different kinds of myth going on simultaneously. Anna goes through the more typical Hero's Journey story, while Elsa is absolutely in a Coming-Out story. As far as when these started, I really don't know the exact date, but two big ones happened in the early 1960s. X-Men's first issue was 1963, and the general plot line follows that structure. (Individual heroes might or might not qualify). The very next year (and a lot less seriously), another one that pretty much everybody recognizes was made: Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Well, it really depends on how you define mythos, is like asking examples of poiuytrewq in western civilization without telling us what poiuytrewq, besides the fact that words seem to have different meaning for you makes this really hard.

The dictionary says:

mythos
[mith-os, mahy-thos]

1.
the underlying system of beliefs, especially those dealing with supernatural forces, characteristic of a particular cultural group.
2.
myth (def 1).
3.
mythology (def 1).

But you said not to do with religion so i take it could be two things.

1- An epic story with characters overwhelming odds and recognizable archetypes, if that’s the case we have tons from "To kill a mocking bird" to "War and peace" basically almost any piece of literature qualifies.

Or

2- A story with supernatural elements such as Gods, other dimensions, deities and monsters, if that's the case we still have tons, here are some examples from the top of my head:

Spoiler: My list of mythos form the top of my head

Show

-Stephen king mythos.


-Song Of ice and fire mythos.


-Pathfinder mythos.


-Forgoten realms( They gave us iconic mythological creatures such as Liches and Beholders).




-Middle earth mythos.


-Narnia mythos.


-Demon's souls.


-Hyborian mythos.



-Adventure time.


-Alice mythos.



-Creepypastas.


-Alan moore mythos.



-Sandman mythos(The endless)



-Vertigo in general.


-BlackHorse.



-Dark souls.


-Jack kirby's cosmic side of Marvel and DC.




-Pan's labyrinth




-Dark universe.


-Doctor who.



-Discworld mythos.


-Lankhmar mythos(Fritz leiber).





-Dracula.

-Star wars.

-Star trek.

-Alien.

-Ufology.


-Warhammer.




-Diablo.

And that's all I could think for now, is that good enougth for your tastes? ;p

[Donnadogsoth]

mythos
[mith-os, mahy-thos]

1.
the underlying system of beliefs, especially those dealing with supernatural forces, characteristic of a particular cultural group.
2.
myth (def 1).
3.
mythology (def 1).

But you said not to do with religion so i take it could be two things.

1- An epic story with characters overwhelming odds and recognizable archetypes, if that’s the case we have tons from "To kill a mocking bird" to "War and peace" basically almost any piece of literature qualifies.

Or

2- A story with supernatural elements such as Gods, other dimensions, deities and monsters, if that's the case we still have tons, here are some examples from the top of my head:
...
And that's all I could think for now, is that good enougth for your tastes? ;p

I'm thinking in terms of the Cthulhu Mythos. They're not the basis for an established real-life religion, though they contain a fictional religion. There are celestial beings, immortal things, cultists, literature, it's got some heft to it. Similar the Marvel Comics Universe would apply, as would I imagine the others you've colourfully listed.

Do you have any thoughts on if any of these mythos apply to what Telonius has mentioned, the lack of a modern myth cycle that would apply to the post-agrarian age?

The modern age is mythically defined by television, handheld screens, soon AR glasses. That's where we get our energy from, we can literally even order food from them thus dispensing with the need to actually physically set foot in a grocery store. But the myth cycles that have come are not singular, as this thread has shown, but multifarious. Are there any commonalities that can be attained to, maybe to a new archetype or archetypes?

[2D8HP]

Limited to past 1000. So as much as I'd like to bring in Norse Mythology, Beowulf and such and such. I'll keep it to Medieval and later.

Well the stories are probably older, but since the

Poetic

and

Prose Eddas

were probably written down in the 13th century, I'd say you can include them.

..how quickly should I flee from this thread...

Good question, I waited a couple of days to post myself, in this case I advise limiting responses to the first post, the ones in response to it (advice that I obviously broke by responding to you. Comme ci comme ça).




Anyway, off the top of my head:

The Anansesem
(Ghana - also known as the "Br'er Rabbit" tales in the USA)


The Táin Bó Cúailnge
(Ireland)

The Mabinogion
(Wales)

Kalevala
(Finland)

and

The Silmarillion
(England)

[Hazyshade]

Last time, after some doomsaying about how we were living in a new dark age, hand-wringing about the "denial of universal principles of art, science, statecraft, and morality" and how our current cultural artifacts are "substitutes for a real culture, like existed in the Middle Ages", and a coded warning about the collapse of our 'majority identity', he ended up recommending we destroy the rocky mountains to flood Nevada or something, so that was a fun thread.

In a previous thread, he said that the world was being ruined by porn, divorce and people being gay. He really is not a fan of pornography and homosexuality. Or women dressing themselves. Then there was some anti-semitic conspiracy theory stuff and a manifesto about how he admired Russia's authoritarianism. That was not a fun thread.

Also, he double posts constantly.

It depends what you believe the point of arguing with people on the interwebz is. If your enemy doesn't have the option of behaving in the present any differently from the way they've behaved in the past, then it's the definition of futile.

Then again when I tried playing D&D I got told I wasn't doing it right because I used to check that individual kobolds wanted to kill us before attacking them, because Geneva Convention.

[SaintRidley]

In terms of how the rest of the thread is likely to react, or what? Historically the way these things go is that a bunch of really bad thinly veiled white supremacist arguments get brought out, the rest of the posters swat them down, and eventually the thread gets locked.

And through the power of dogwhistles, donnadogsoth always manages to escape without a ban.

Must be great to politicize the Middle Ages in the service of a racist agenda. As a medievalist, it sickens me to see that happen here and in the real world where white supremacists love to co-opt medieval iconography in order to lay claim to a past that was nothing like what they imagine it to be.

[Hazyshade]

As a medievalist, it sickens me to see that happen here and in the real world where white supremacists love to co-opt medieval iconography in order to lay claim to a past that was nothing like what they imagine it to be.

It sickens me to see white supremacists claim legitimacy however they do it, but I feel that criticising white supremacism for being historically inaccurate is a dangerous game to play. A white supremacist wouldn't be making their white supremacism any better by making it more historically accurate. Or even by providing conclusive proof that they were right about the past and we were wrong. Maybe white supremacism worked out just peachy in 1380 - that wouldn't make it any more the right answer when we consider it on its own terms in 2017.

[kraftcheese]

It sickens me to see white supremacists claim legitimacy however they do it, but I feel that criticising white supremacism for being historically inaccurate is a dangerous game to play. A white supremacist wouldn't be making their white supremacism any better by making it more historically accurate. Or even by providing conclusive proof that they were right about the past and we were wrong. Maybe white supremacism worked out just peachy in 1380 - that wouldn't make it any more the right answer when we consider it on its own terms in 2017.

We're skating very close to politics here, but I'd say I'm happy to use any tool to discredit reactionary ideologies like white supremacy; I'll use scientific evidence, sociology, history, philosophy, morality, whatever I can.

I guess the useful thing about using evidence-based things like history, science, etc. is that they can't be turned aside by someone with different views as easily as subjective stuff like morality.

[Hazyshade]

We're skating very close to politics here, but I'd say I'm happy to use any tool to discredit reactionary ideologies like white supremacy; I'll use scientific evidence, sociology, history, philosophy, morality, whatever I can.

I guess the useful thing about using evidence-based things like history, science, etc. is that they can't be turned aside by someone with different views as easily as subjective stuff like morality.

I find the exact opposite. You can hide in a science fortress - or a holy-book fortress or any other "objective" fortress - and declare that you've kept the subjective stuff out, but the very act of hiding in that fortress will have been a moral decision. You said yourself that science is just a tool in the quest you've made a moral decision to take on, which is discrediting white supremacy.

The only fortress that can keep the subjective stuff out is a fortress that's built of the same subjective stuff. White supremacy is bad because I take the equality of all humans to be a fundamental value. I don't care whether science and history are on my side, or on the white supremacists' side, or neutral. For me to smugly quote scientific and historical evidence as though the absence of that evidence would affect my moral decision in any way, would just be cowardly and dishonest.

[2D8HP]

...But the myth cycles that have come are not singular, as this thread has shown, but multifarious. Are there any commonalities that can be attained to, maybe to a new archetype or archetypes?

I grand unifying cultural myth?

Done.

In the middle of the 20th century a historic event was quickly mythologized and turned to story

You must have films featuring a common man Band of Brothers often multi-ethnic and multi-national, in a squad fighting a great evil.

You can include "Resistance" tales as well, making it an even more international "mythos", and besides Hollywood, many novels, films of many nations, and television shows tell the same tale.


When I was a child and youth an often broadcast example on television was:



Hogan's Heroes

..which has the squad as Trickster Heroes an archtype often used, such as.in the Anansi tales of west Africa.


I believe that "ticks all the boxes".

Your welcome.

[Donnadogsoth]

I grand unifying cultural myth?

Done.

In the middle of the 20th century a historic event was quickly mythologized and turned to story

You must have films featuring a common man Band of Brothers often multi-ethnic and multi-national, in a squad fighting a great evil.

You can include "Resistance" tales as well, making it an even more international "mythos", and besides Hollywood, many novels, films of many nations, and television shows tell the same tale.


When I was a child and youth an often broadcast example on television was:



Hogan's Heroes

..which has the squad as Trickster Heroes an archtype often used, such as.in the Anansi tales of west Africa.


I believe that "ticks all the boxes".

Your welcome.

Good idea, thanks. It certainly is the capital event, and it supplies origin, valuation, and the sacred all at once, supplanting all others and echoing down the decades, at least for the West. Non-Western cultures certainly don't care.

[Knaight]

Good idea, thanks. It certainly is the capital event, and it supplies origin, valuation, and the sacred all at once, supplanting all others and echoing down the decades, at least for the West. Non-Western cultures certainly don't care.

Putting aside how the dramatic events of the 20th century to have worldwide implications or even be worldwide, and how the example is set in WWII specifically which as "world" in the description for a reason: Where exactly are you getting the idea that the idea of an extremely close brotherhood fighting a great power is some sort of uniquely Western idea? Putting aside the extremely obvious counter examples (e.g. the entire genre of wuxia, starting with Water Margin) in literature, does the term "colonialism" mean anything to you? Did it even occur to you that the idea of a small band pushing back against some sort of grandiose occupying force might have an extra appeal in places where colonial powers ruled during living memory?

[Thrudd]

Good idea, thanks. It certainly is the capital event, and it supplies origin, valuation, and the sacred all at once, supplanting all others and echoing down the decades, at least for the West. Non-Western cultures certainly don't care.

Non western cultures don't care about WWII? Unless you're just talking about fascism and the European fronts, people of the Pacific and East Asia were involved as well, with huge repercussions for all. You could argue that THE defining event of the war, the thing most capable of being mythologized, took place in the Pacific, not Europe.

[Knaight]

Non western cultures don't care about WWII? Unless you're just talking about fascism and the European fronts, people of the Pacific and East Asia were involved as well, with huge repercussions for all. You could argue that THE defining event of the war, the thing most capable of being mythologized, took place in the Pacific, not Europe.

Yeah, but why would anyone in, say, Nanking or Hiroshima possibly feel like WWII was relevant to them?

[Fawkes]

Now taking bets on how many pages it'll be before Donnadogsoth quotes white supremacist rhetoric. Again.

It certainly is the capital event, and it supplies origin, valuation, and the sacred all at once, supplanting all others and echoing down the decades, at least for the West. Non-Western cultures certainly don't care.

Ooh here it comes...

[Donnadogsoth]

Putting aside how the dramatic events of the 20th century to have worldwide implications or even be worldwide, and how the example is set in WWII specifically which as "world" in the description for a reason: Where exactly are you getting the idea that the idea of an extremely close brotherhood fighting a great power is some sort of uniquely Western idea? Putting aside the extremely obvious counter examples (e.g. the entire genre of wuxia, starting with Water Margin) in literature, does the term "colonialism" mean anything to you? Did it even occur to you that the idea of a small band pushing back against some sort of grandiose occupying force might have an extra appeal in places where colonial powers ruled during living memory?

I was referring to the fact that to my knowledge non-Western cultures generally don't care about WWII [European Theater]. I could be wrong and would like counterexamples. Does Malaysia care about WWII [European Theater]? I tend to think these other countries and cultures have their own history to think about, not some European fratricide from seventy years ago.

The WWII foundation myth is foundational to the West. Nowhere did I argue that that kind of myth is unique to the West, though, of course, if anyone can name a similar myth that is comparably negative in its essence I'd certainly care to read it. Indeed this entire thread aids my search for mythos that are unique to the West. If such could be found, then the obvious juxtaposition would be with the WWII foundation myth, with possibly interesting outcomes.

[Donnadogsoth]

Non western cultures don't care about WWII? Unless you're just talking about fascism and the European fronts, people of the Pacific and East Asia were involved as well, with huge repercussions for all. You could argue that THE defining event of the war, the thing most capable of being mythologized, took place in the Pacific, not Europe.

Yes, of course I'm talking about the European Theater. That's where the Holocaust happened, which aside from the birth of _____ ______ was the most important event in all of Western history. I'm sorry if I misled you or anyone else, I recognise that there was something going on with regards to Japan and its colonial ambitions at about the same time.

EDIT: Just in case anyone attempts to misconstrue and/or libel me for my past few posts, let me distinguish between "foundation myth" as in a collection of stories, narratives, symbols, and understandings which act as a basis for a civilisation to operate on, and the Holocaust as an historical event. My use of the phrase "foundation myth" should NOT be construed as indicating that I think the Holocaust was a myth. I am quite aware that there was an historical event commonly called the Holocaust, and it is not my intention to cast doubt on its veracity.

[Knaight]

Yes, of course I'm talking about the European Theater. That's where the Holocaust happened, which aside from the birth of _____ ______ was the most important event in all of Western history. I'm sorry if I misled you or anyone else, I recognise that there was something going on with regards to Japan and its colonial ambitions at about the same time.

Yes, if you specifically define "world war two" to only include the parts that didn't involve a particular group fighting in it then that group is likely to care less. As just one example, a lot of very specific events can get referred to in passing as "something going on with regards to Japan and its colonial ambitions at about the same time".

[Fawkes]

Remember, kids. It's only libel if it isn't true.

[Lethologica]

I was referring to the fact that to my knowledge non-Western cultures generally don't care about WWII [European Theater]. I could be wrong and would like counterexamples. Does Malaysia care about WWII [European Theater]? I tend to think these other countries and cultures have their own history to think about, not some European fratricide from seventy years ago.

The WWII foundation myth is foundational to the West. Nowhere did I argue that that kind of myth is unique to the West, though, of course, if anyone can name a similar myth that is comparably negative in its essence I'd certainly care to read it. Indeed this entire thread aids my search for mythos that are unique to the West. If such could be found, then the obvious juxtaposition would be with the WWII foundation myth, with possibly interesting outcomes.

You really don't have to look very far for comparatively negative myths in other cultures (insofar as this qualifies as a 'myth' in the first place). The 'century of humiliation' (which includes some really awful s*** from WWII) is a foundational myth for modern China. The atom bomb is a foundational myth for modern Japan. The privation of post-Cold-War Russia is a foundational myth for present-day Russia. Etc.

If you're looking for myths that are unique to the West, that's a very different ask than what was originally stated.

[Hazyshade]

Good idea, thanks. It certainly is the capital event, and it supplies origin, valuation, and the sacred all at once, supplanting all others and echoing down the decades, at least for the West. Non-Western cultures certainly don't care.

Are we actually seriously entertaining this idea?

That the Second World War "supplies origin, valuation and the sacred" is all very nice, but it fails utterly to fall into the category "mythos produced by the West in the past 1000 years" because it is not a myth. Or even a mytho. You can't "mythologize" something that is a verifiable historical fact. That's simply not what that word means. You can tell stories that use WW2 as a setting, but a basic requirement of a myth is that the purported historical facts are capable of flexing to meet the requirements of the narrative, and that is very, very clearly not the case with WW2.

[Lethologica]

Are we actually seriously entertaining this idea?

That the Second World War "supplies origin, valuation and the sacred" is all very nice, but it fails utterly to fall into the category "mythos produced by the West in the past 1000 years" because it is not a myth. Or even a mytho. You can't "mythologize" something that is a verifiable historical fact. That's simply not what that word means. You can tell stories that use WW2 as a setting, but a basic requirement of a myth is that the purported historical facts are capable of flexing to meet the requirements of the narrative, and that is very, very clearly not the case with WW2.

Huh. To me it seems very, very clearly the case that the historical facts of WWII can be and have been flexed to meet mythical narrative requirements. The myth about the supreme virtue of American military might, for example. The merits of the myth itself are debatable, but that it's partly rooted in a particular reading of WWII seems undeniable.

[Donnadogsoth]

Are we actually seriously entertaining this idea?

That the Second World War "supplies origin, valuation and the sacred" is all very nice, but it fails utterly to fall into the category "mythos produced by the West in the past 1000 years" because it is not a myth. Or even a mytho. You can't "mythologize" something that is a verifiable historical fact. That's simply not what that word means. You can tell stories that use WW2 as a setting, but a basic requirement of a myth is that the purported historical facts are capable of flexing to meet the requirements of the narrative, and that is very, very clearly not the case with WW2.

If so, then we need to add a new definition to allow for a "foundation myth" as for example the United State's revolutionary war, and later the Civil War, which were effectively bases for mythology, having the same emotional effect as mythology. See also the examples Lethologica gives above.