OotS Evil Afterlife: Humans and Non-Humans

[Peelee]

In this universe I don't think that reasoning is as sound as he thinks it is. Just ask Malack.

I don't think Malack was in the sharing mood. It's perfectly reasonable that Xykon didn't understand how an undeath different than his worked.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think Malack was in the sharing mood. It's perfectly reasonable that Xykon didn't understand how an undeath different than his worked.

I meant that Malack, despite being undead and thus having the potential to never die, died.

[Keltest]

I meant that Malack, despite undead and having the potential to never die, died.

Indeed, Greg points out that undead of any significant power level tend to become adventurer fodder one way or another.

[Peelee]

Indeed, Greg points out that undead of any significant power level tend to become adventurer fodder one way or another.

To be fair, nothing in D&D is truly immortal; they just keep going until they're destroyed, one way or another.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, nothing in D&D is truly immortal; they just keep going until they're destroyed, one way or another.

Which means that (un)living status tells you squat about the threat posed by the individual.

[Peelee]

Which means that (un)living status tells you squat about the threat posed by the individual.

Not at all. A level X class character turned vampire is significantly more of a threat than a level X class character. Same for lich, or various other undead.

[Fyraltari]

Not at all. A level X class character turned vampire is significantly more of a threat than a level X class character. Same for lich, or various other undead.

Fine : the fact that the person in front of you has been to hell or similar is not a valid indicator of their threat level. Happier ?

[Peelee]

Fine : the fact that the person in front of you has been to hell or similar is not a valid indicator of their threat level. Happier ?

Well, yes, but that's mostly because I've decided to make an Alfredo sauce tonight.

If they've been to hell and are still in front of me, I'm going to assume a higher threat level than I would if they had not been to hell. Either they got back by themselves or have powerful friends, and neither scenario tends to scream "weak person."

[Psyren]

Well, some people definitely prefer to be in charge, rather than just watching the show. So, I suspect it depends on the kind of evil person. I suspect Xykon prefers lichdom for this reason, but yeah, depending on your goals, either's valid.

Oh undoubtedly they'd prefer total agency - but if the choice is being a voice in a vampire's head until merging, or eternal torture, they'd probably pick the former, is all I'm saying.

I reckon a sufficiently evil person just surrenders to the vampiric spirit faster and they sorta meld together
the vampire's impulses and tendencies are the main driving forces, but host's personality is still there, it is still aware of its continued existence and gets to enjoy atrocities committed.
I.e. you retain awareness and are in charge as long as your goals, values and actions align with you vampiric self
Good souls are instead absorbed and dissolved as almost nothing in them is compatible with vampiric spirit's agenda. Even then, what aligns stays, so Greg's wish to hurt other dwarfs becomes sincere as he absorbs Durkon's rage at being cast out.

Indeed.

That does not mean he is more powerful than the other souls down there, he never actually defeated the subcontractors, he just forced V to let them go. Should he fight with Jephton the Unholy in the Big Fire Below, I am not 100% sure the fight would go his way.

He might not be as strong as they were in life, but he's still "in the game" (and can keep getting stronger - as we saw at Kraagor's Gate) while they've already lost. So his contempt for them is understandable.

[Goblin_Priest]

Not at all. A level X class character turned vampire is significantly more of a threat than a level X class character. Same for lich, or various other undead.

Sure, but this all kind of wanes as a character gains levels. The advantages of being a lich are far greater at lvl 11 than at lvl 25. If one allows epic rules, one might even consider any template with an LA to be a serious handicap, because it drastically increases what's needed in order to gain more epic perks. Lich is a +4 LA! Takes the same xp for a human to get to level 24 than for a human lich to get to level 20... The XP required to go from 20 to 24 is the same as is required to go from 1 to 14, basically.

So while, sure, in a way, between a human sorcerer and a human lich sorcerer, one might assume the lich has an advantage, but on the other hand, given how rare and hard grinding to and past epic is, between an epic human sorcerer and an epic human lich sorcerer, odds are the non-lich would actually be tougher, if one assumes the world doesn't have any (or many) level 25+ (or equivalent LA) characters running around.

[thereaper]

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

The Lower Planes are punitive because of the sorts of things that inhabit it. These include Archfiends (infinite numbers of them, actually) and deities, the latter of which are definitely above Xykon's level.