Spell scrolls and "spells known" classes; esp sorcerer

[visitor]

I have not been all that interested in the sorcerer class, but was just recently making one up as an npc. I was struck how small their spell list is (especially at low levels).

But then I thought: the description of spell scrolls says if the spell (on the scroll) is on your spell list, you may use the scroll.

So those classes with only a handful of "spells known" have a way to mitigate this somewhat: with spell scrolls of spells available to them even if not "known". Also, it looks like the sorcerer may use his meta magic on spell scrolls, along with staves and wands too.

Is this correct? I figure it's old news around here.



On a somewhat similar note, to create a first level spell scroll, the DMG recommends 100 gp (and 4 days) and only requires the creator be 3rd level.

Do you find those guidlines to be fairly balanced with respect the expected gold your players have?

Actually, just cracking open the PH now the gold cost seems silly. I wouldn't mind my players buying a dozen lousy PH basic poisons but a dozen magic missles is another thing.

[Kane0]

How did I not notice that?

I mean, it could easily be interpreted either way but there's nothing expressly forbidding a Sorc from MMing spells cast from items, it just says 'spells you cast'.

Neat trick.

Edit: For an NPC caster you won't want more than a handful of spells to choose from anyways, just look at casters like the Archmage in the monster manual.
You might also want to have a look at the downtime UA if you're looking for alternate ways to obtain scrolls. I use an adapted version of those.

Spoiler: Item crafting during downtime

Show

Crafting an Item
Requires appropriate tools and proficiency in order to make the item in question, plus access to materials worth half the price of the item to be created. Make a check using your tools each week to determine how much progress is made:
1-5: 25gp that week
6-10: 50gp that week
11-15: 100gp that week
16-20: 200gp that week
21+: 500gp that week

Magic items also require a successful arcana check in order to make progress and add to the base cost of the item:
Common magic item: DC 10 Arcana & 100gp
Uncommon magic item: DC 15 Arcana & 1,000gp
Rare magic item: DC 20 Arcana & 10,000gp
Very Rare magic item: DC 25 Arcana & 100,000gp
Scrolls are 2/3 the standard cost and the relevant tool proficiency is the scribing/calligraphy kit
Potions are 1/3 the standard cost and the relevant tool proficiency is either the alchemy or herbalism kit

[SharkForce]

yes, if a thing allows you to cast a spell, you can (RAW at least) use metamagic on it.

do note that this only applies to items where you cast a spell using the item though. for example, a staff of thunder and lightning may have an effect quite similar to a lightning bolt spell, but it isn't casting a spell so you can't use metamagic. and a potion of speed is giving the effects of a haste spell, but it isn't being cast by the person who is using it so again, no metamagic; you cannot twin a potion of speed.

as far as creating scrolls, i would be disinclined to allow someone to create a scroll of a spell that they cannot themselves cast. how do you put a spell into a scroll when you don't have that spell "in" yourself?

[visitor]

yes, if a thing allows you to cast a spell, you can (RAW at least) use metamagic on it.

do note that this only applies to items where you cast a spell using the item though. for example, a staff of thunder and lightning may have an effect quite similar to a lightning bolt spell, but it isn't casting a spell so you can't use metamagic. and a potion of speed is giving the effects of a haste spell, but it isn't being cast by the person who is using it so again, no metamagic; you cannot twin a potion of speed.

as far as creating scrolls, i would be disinclined to allow someone to create a scroll of a spell that they cannot themselves cast. how do you put a spell into a scroll when you don't have that spell "in" yourself?

Yes, those were slightly different points I was bringing up.

First, a sorcerer could cast a spell he didn't know from a spell scroll (assuming it was on the sorcerer spell list).

And then, creating a spell scroll seemed pretty cheap and easy. Even if you could only make the scrolls of spells you can cast (that is pointed out as a requirement), you could make a nice stockpile. Too cheap and easy, I'm thinking now.

Sorry I was confusing

[SharkForce]

Yes, those were slightly different points I was bringing up.

First, a sorcerer could cast a spell he didn't know from a spell scroll (assuming it was on the sorcerer spell list).

And then, creating a spell scroll seemed pretty cheap and easy. Even if you could only make the scrolls of spells you can cast (that is pointed out as a requirement), you could make a nice stockpile. Too cheap and easy, I'm thinking now.

Sorry I was confusing

well, the time cost is relevant as well, and you won't have a ton of gold until later levels, when spare magic missiles in reserve is rather less exciting... but yeah, that is fairly affordable.

on the other hand, it's not likely to stay super relevant for all that long, and non-casters still have ways to spend their money on power to keep things in line.

where i think it gets much more valuable to be able to craft is when you can craft some scrolls of spells you want to have in reserve, but not necessarily to spam, which i think is more of a wizard thing. you don't often want protection from evil, so having 2-3 scrolls of it is a lot like having an extra spell known. same for something like feather fall, comprehend languages, or identify. or for a cleric or druid being able to stockpile emergency heals or similar.

on the other hand, technically you need a formula to be able to make a magic item if you're going by the DMG.

[visitor]

well, the time cost is relevant as well, and you won't have a ton of gold until later levels, when spare magic missiles in reserve is rather less exciting... but yeah, that is fairly affordable.

on the other hand, it's not likely to stay super relevant for all that long, and non-casters still have ways to spend their money on power to keep things in line.

where i think it gets much more valuable to be able to craft is when you can craft some scrolls of spells you want to have in reserve, but not necessarily to spam, which i think is more of a wizard thing. you don't often want protection from evil, so having 2-3 scrolls of it is a lot like having an extra spell known. same for something like feather fall, comprehend languages, or identify. or for a cleric or druid being able to stockpile emergency heals or similar.

on the other hand, technically you need a formula to be able to make a magic item if you're going by the DMG.

I figured like everything else it would be DM dependent, but I see now where they specified a formula also.


I don't worry too much about high level parties making some low level utility spell scrolls, I was thinking more along the lines of level 3-6 where spell slots are limited and used sparingly during an adventure. And now having mulled it over, I think any magic item crafting would have to be pretty limited to avoid really unbalancing the game. Having a pocketful of blur, scorching ray or shield scrolls for every encounter at those levels is significant. (or allowing a paladin (since he's a spell caster) make spell scrolls so he can reserve all his spell slots for divine smites).


What I was interested in asking though, is what you were thinking that a non-caster could spend gold on for a comparable power boost? A group of hirelings? I suppose, but kind of a headache for a dungeon dive. I can't think of much that would compare...a good thing, as like I said, it's too much.

[SharkForce]

I figured like everything else it would be DM dependent, but I see now where they specified a formula also.


I don't worry too much about high level parties making some low level utility spell scrolls, I was thinking more along the lines of level 3-6 where spell slots are limited and used sparingly during an adventure. And now having mulled it over, I think any magic item crafting would have to be pretty limited to avoid really unbalancing the game. Having a pocketful of blur, scorching ray or shield scrolls for every encounter at those levels is significant. (or allowing a paladin (since he's a spell caster) make spell scrolls so he can reserve all his spell slots for divine smites).


What I was interested in asking though, is what you were thinking that a non-caster could spend gold on for a comparable power boost? A group of hirelings? I suppose, but kind of a headache for a dungeon dive. I can't think of much that would compare...a good thing, as like I said, it's too much.

at high levels, there isn't really much a non-caster could spend their gold on to get remotely comparable value except buying magic items made by other spellcasters to save some crafting time :P

(they could also spend their money on poison. that can give some very impressive benefits for a handful of attacks. note: not fights. attacks).

it is worth noting that the very powerful stuff will likely take longer than the lifespan of some party members to craft.

in any event, the sad fact is that there's already a divide on who can transform gold and downtime into relatively easy-to-use power. a high level wizard can planar bind various extraplanar beings to their service, for up to 6 months of a CR 8 creature for free (higher CR is possible free, but you'll have to deal with the creature constantly trying to twist your words which is non-ideal to say the least), or a year for 1,000 gold. or up to 6 months of a CR 9 creature for 1,000 gold. or rebind a creature for up to a year for 1,000 gold (or up to 6 months for free). and they can bind another one every day. each day, they can also make up to 2 permanently controlled zombies, set up some glyphs of useful spells for later use, fabricate raw materials into valuable objects to generate more wealth to pay for expensive material components, and so forth.

so i mean, if you're looking at really high levels... that divide is already somewhat there. a fighter can get a small army of mercenaries, few if any of which will be above CR 2 or have special abilities, and being mercenaries are going to have some pretty significant limits to their loyalty. a spellcaster can get a small army of creatures with an assortment of powers potentially including flight, healing, magical attacks that bypass immunity to normal weapons, possibly some immunities, etc, guaranteed to be loyal for the duration of the binding spell that holds them...