My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

[Coidzor]

RE: talking to your players.

I'd be careful about this.
You've been presented with many in game solutions to this particular problem. I would hope your friends aren't the sort to get butthurt because you (finally) found a way to trivialise their cheese strategy. (even if they are, the onus is now on them to talk to you about it).
Talking to them implies a problem not inherent to the game itself, but to the relationships you have with these people.

Basically you're saying:
"Guys, you're powergaming this and I can't handle it."
I suppose this has some merit and will help you in the long run, it's just an entirely different kettle of fish.
My worry here is that: powergamers are the competitive sort. By admitting you can't cope with it, you're signalling weakness (or an inability to compete, take your pick) and ultimately will never be respected as the DM as the others are now all pulling their punches.

But, again, you know you, you know your friends, take whichever course fits best.

It's not getting "butthurt" to recognize when the DM is overreacting and going out of his way to be a ****, like many of the suggestions upthread entail.

Talking to them like they're all reasonable facsimiles of adults or the better class of teenager is infinitely preferable to petty behavior that begets petty behavior.

[sithlordnergal]

Perspective A: You are anoyed because your CR needs to be re-calculated etc.

Perspective B: Player has found a creative way to use his spells. Wile RAW may have some implications that disallow choosing the creature summoned or something, I find this rule stupid, as everyone bothering to summon something wants to choose the thing (yes, I'm saying that as a DM, not a player).

How I'd handle it: Either have a bunsh of things capable to give a bunsh of T-Rexes a tough time (Enlarged Red Half-Dragon Dragonborn Warlock/Paladin of Tiamat makes for a nice and thematic Kaiju Fight at lower Levels, wile at higher levels you can just throw them the real thing, an actual Chromatic Dragon), or just have lots of casters with Counterspell/Dispel Magic for the Summon, making it an occasional thing. Include areas were a T-Rex won't fit in like inside dungeon corridors.

I generally don't like robbing players of their abilities, but instead giving them realistic situations were doing so would not work. If 4/10 times they can pull their trick, I won't mind, and consider it their default strategy. However, if they are for example on a boat and someone has the damned idea to turn into a T-Rex, fight or not, the ship will sink due to overweight, and I won't be to blame. :)

I like this fix. Since you already gave the player the ability to summon pixies, he'll notice if he stops summoning pixies all of the sudden. What I would do is set up encounters in places where a T-Rex won't work at well. For example, T-Rex's do not have darkvision. So if you attack them at night with beings who can see in the dark, the T-Rex will have disadvantage on all their attacks. Or force them into areas smaller then a 15 ft. cube, now there isn't enough room for a single T-Rex. Or attack with ranged weapons. A T-Rex has no ranged options. If you set up some archers out of reach, now the T-Rex won't work.

Don't get me wrong, the T-Rex is a powerful tool, but only in melee with enough room for a T-Rex to fit.

[StoicLeaf]

It's not getting "butthurt" to recognize when the DM is overreacting and going out of his way to be a ****, like many of the suggestions upthread entail.

Talking to them like they're all reasonable facsimiles of adults or the better class of teenager is infinitely preferable to petty behavior that begets petty behavior.

It has nothing to do with overreacting or petty behaviour and if you interpret it as such then trying to talk to you like an adult isn't going to go anywhere.
Players opt for strategy A. Strategy A proves to be very effective. The world and anyone else desiring to challenge the players will have to make plans to counter strategy A.
Strategy A countered (with magic missiles. I wouldn't call that elaborate or "going out of the way"). Players will now have to come up with something new.

By butthurt I meant the sort of childish player who basks in their own self-righteousness and now that their "great idea" has been shut down it's time to throw a hissy fit because how dare the DM make me feel less cool and important.

I don't think this a topic worth an out of game discussion. I'd perhaps inform them that it wasn't going to work anymore (for a variety of reasons) before letting them run into danger.
But once again, the OP knows best which idea will lead to success. I definitely want to know how this turns out!

[Azgeroth]

if i might,

the problem seems to be, you have okayed a strategy, to later find it is ruining the game (at least for you)

options,

talk to the player(s) voice your concerns, give them options with reasons.

- your walking the encounters, so im going to have seriously up the difficulty to keep pace, be warned.

-your using the same tactic, and gaining notoriety, if you continue, which you can, be aware your going to have encounters built specifically to counter that tactic, because your foe's are intelligent.

-your abuse of my fiat has forced me to ret-con that decision, im sorry, but from now on i decide the summons.

-the tactics your using are awesome, but you are not RP'ing the T-rex's correctly, in short, meta gaming. here is how T-Rex's should be played, im going to police this more closely.

other options

teach them the hard way,

do one of multiples of the above without discussion.. not cool, but up to you.

tactics!

-as mentioned, put them in buildings/dungeons where a T-Rex simply will not fit.

-as mentioned, make the terrain as such a T-Rex is a liability, not a boon.

-have the area warded against conjuration magic (no summons, no teleports)

-give them an encounter against pixies, who track the party down for constantly summoning them into fights they have no stock in, and then the polymorph each other into T-Rex's

-make every encounter in the open (where the tactic can work) so easy its a waste of spell slots.


IMHO

talk to them, explain whats going on, give fair warning of consequences of continuing, DO NOT outlaw the tactic wholesale.

[Citan]

if i might,

the problem seems to be, you have okayed a strategy, to later find it is ruining the game (at least for you)

options,

talk to the player(s) voice your concerns, give them options with reasons.

- your walking the encounters, so im going to have seriously up the difficulty to keep pace, be warned.

-your using the same tactic, and gaining notoriety, if you continue, which you can, be aware your going to have encounters built specifically to counter that tactic, because your foe's are intelligent.

-your abuse of my fiat has forced me to ret-con that decision, im sorry, but from now on i decide the summons.

-the tactics your using are awesome, but you are not RP'ing the T-rex's correctly, in short, meta gaming. here is how T-Rex's should be played, im going to police this more closely.

Seconding this. Whatever you choose to do in the end, it's better to inform the players about beforehand, and help you choose the best method. After that, whatever everyone as a whole prefer...

Although the bolded one feels the most natural to me:
a) It allows you to keep the same line as before ("I let you choose summons, even Pixies"), so you avoid any breach of trust on players part by suddenly changing rules (even if your decision would be legitimate, that is still a fact).

b) It is totally intuitive for players to understand (at least if they want to play a roleplaying game and not a video game) so it may even give them some emergent ideas (either thinking about new tactics or ways to safeguard this one, or devising ways to hide their true identity while wreaking havoc, or even -for evil players- strategizing fights to ensure nobody survives to tell things about them elsewhere).

c) And it also gives you some ideas to dig into for deciding how the world evolves during downtime...
- The players plan to use the T-REX tactic to waste a bandit's hideout lair, that was part of a bigger faction? Make some of them try to flee when things start going hairy, warning players about it: either they let them flee and can expect counter-measures later, or switch priorities to catch them first.
- The infamous group has been tasked with putting a Wizard away? Wizard will certainly have ways to spy them and get how they work so he will prepare adequate spells to deal with it: Magic Missile, Levitate, Enlarge -for closed areas-, Phantasmal Force (good luck breaking THAT), Slow, etc... Or maybe he will hire guys, or lay traps. Give several chances for players to learn about this (rumors, allies spying, capturing a hireling, etc) and ask them how they want to react to this during their own downtime: it may be "let's rush right now", "let's hire guys ourselves", "devise another tactic", "prepare a set up and try to lure Wizard into it", whatever)...
So Wizard will be more or less prepared when the confrontation happens for real.

---
With that said, to guys basically saying that a DM would automatically be an ass for debunking pixies with direct tactics such as Magic Missile or focusing attacks on the Druid etc... This feels like a powergamer's childish defensive reaction. When players are level 5+, it's totally expectable to meet foes with a minimum smartness and magic.

Warning them beforehand that you will up the game is a courtesy to be sure to avoid no hard feelings, so recommended in case those players are newcomers or a bit sensitive about how their gaming reflect their real-life value (which is inept but hey, it can happen to everyone at times). Or if there would really be no in-world reason to have intelligent / magically adept creatures.

But in any credible, evolving world in a tightly or loosely 5E-based setting, these "organic reactions" to disable a dangerous, repeated tactic would happen soon or late (and rather sooner than later). Especially since they trample everything so they would get infamous quick.
If I was playing with experienced gamers, I probably wouldn't even bother with any warning unless I know some of them are currently in a specific mindstate that would make them get hurt from this. Experienced gamers perfectly know when they are pushing it too hard imx.

[pwykersotz]

I like this fix. Since you already gave the player the ability to summon pixies, he'll notice if he stops summoning pixies all of the sudden. What I would do is set up encounters in places where a T-Rex won't work at well. For example, T-Rex's do not have darkvision. So if you attack them at night with beings who can see in the dark, the T-Rex will have disadvantage on all their attacks. Or force them into areas smaller then a 15 ft. cube, now there isn't enough room for a single T-Rex. Or attack with ranged weapons. A T-Rex has no ranged options. If you set up some archers out of reach, now the T-Rex won't work.

Don't get me wrong, the T-Rex is a powerful tool, but only in melee with enough room for a T-Rex to fit.

This was suggested on the 3.5 forums as a way to fix encounter balance issues.

There is a reason that despite my love of 3.5, I have fled to 5e. This is almost entirely that reason. To the best of my ability to understand my fellow GM's over the internet, this is exactly the kind of fix that goes over poorly. Having to plan around the party to this degree is frustrating, time consuming, and leads to GM burnout. At least for me it did.

In short, it's one thing to have the party be strong in an area and to use their special skills. It's another entirely when they become unstoppable in that area. The GM should not have to write his campaign around mechanical abilities to that degree.

[Throne12]

We're in the rules does it say the DM choose the creatures summon?

[Abakus]

Another option would be to find an ingame reason why the trick would no longer work, instead of starting an arms race by countering it directly.

After each summon, the pixies start to complain more and more, not wanting to do boring work for mortals (always the same routine of summoning -> polymorph). They might even start to vary the effect of their spells while still following the letter (polymorphing a part of the party in baby T-Rexes or even eggs). This way they still get some benefit for their spell, but are warned to not abuse it.

Should the party not get these hints, the Mother Pixie might come along during the next summons and send the players a quest or two, if they wish to stay on her good side (a time during which they have no access to any pixies from summoning).

[Byke]

This argument come up many times. Nowhere does it state in the spell that you need to know the creature. But I will stay away from RAW and just talk about the game and actually having fun. If everyone including the DM is having fun that's all that matters. Some of the most memorable encounters in my game where with polymorph. My players still talk about that time when they polied into a giant ape and fought a treant or the time when the turned into a T-Rex and the Warlock rode his back shooting lasers.

There are many ways of getting around polymorph.

1) Concentration - hit the caster and he will eventually fail his check
2) Smarter enemies. The poly trick may work on the first or second encounter, but enemies will learn and start using tactic. Like fighting in small corridors. prepping the battle field with trap ect..ect..
3) if you player have access to poly then why can't the enemies have access to fly/dispel/counterspell ect..ect...or hey why can't they poly? Don't use this every encounter but in the ones that matter.
4) Build tougher encounters. (Or use waves of enemies who learn from the previous wave)

As a DM you need to understand the limits of your players and challenge them. You should not penalize you players for not being able to deal with a spell.

For newer DMs the game is easier to manged sub 6th level. But once you start getting into higher levels it becomes a lot more difficult and you need to learn and adapt to your players creativity or you and your players who will not have fun.

Edit as for the pixie thing - many work around as well.

[JPicasso]

Who says every pixie has polymorph?

[Byke]

Having to plan around the party to this degree is frustrating, time consuming, and leads to GM burnout. At least for me it did.

In short, it's one thing to have the party be strong in an area and to use their special skills. It's another entirely when they become unstoppable in that area. The GM should not have to write his campaign around mechanical abilities to that degree.

As a DM, I feel that it's my job to bring forward creative and interesting encounters that the players need to complete. If they are solving every encounter with summoning pixies and polymorph, then I'm not being creative enough. Yes it alot of work (sometimes) but for me that is part of the fun of being a DM, thinking up challenges that cannot always be solve the same way.

[Citan]

As a DM, I feel that it's my job to bring forward creative and interesting encounters that the players need to complete. If they are solving every encounter with summoning pixies and polymorph, then I'm not being creative enough. Yes it alot of work (sometimes) but for me that is part of the fun of being a DM, thinking up challenges that cannot always be solve the same way.

I agree with this. The Pixie > T-Rex is not even that creative either, it's basically substituting a set of abilities by another.
With the whole party like that, I'd even argue that it makes them easier to manage once you start targeting the weaknesses of that tactic (like very bad mental stats or huge size as has been illustrated by others).
T-Rex is "just" a huge meat bag that is good at running and biting.
It makes them much more predictible than if each player tried to actually use all his potential, especially casters with all their nasty control tricks.

[Twizzly513]

If it were me I would punish them for abusing the rules, but not in any out of game way, or even an obvious in game one. Put them against an encounter with some archers on a ledge. They have to either shoot/cast back or find a way to close the distance. T-rexes can do neither. Pit them against some intelligent beings who understand what's happening and have them target the pixies. I'd also like to share a story which I think can apply in some way.

So there was this DM I read about online, and he was doing a game at a convention. One player rolls up to the scene with his lowest level about 3 above the rest of the party. Long story short, he got in anyway. (I believe it was some level 5s and the 8) Throughout the dungeon, he would demolish monsters and overshadow the rest of the party. The DM got tired of it, and put a mysterious doorway. One player (not the 8) opens door. "[player name] opens the door, screams, and slams it shut." The level 8 immediately runs through the door being cocky, and falls into an extradimensional portal. He dies.

The real moral of the story isn't super big on what's happening here, but the point is that if your characters think they can solve all their problems by turning themselves into a bunch of T-rexes, give them a reason otherwise. Archers and such might only work as a gimmick once or twice, but you can also do things like have them fight in enclosed spaces (forest, perhaps) where movement becomes difficult if you're bigger than medium sized. It may also be a little cheap, but if they come across a spellcaster, Counterspell is there for you. Not sure what spell level Conjure Woodland Beings is off the top of my head, though. You could also give them more encounters that are more stealth-based. For instance, they could try and fight their way into the orc/giant/goblin/generally-angry-humanoid-with-exaggerated-features war camp as some T-rexes, or they could try a more subtle approach.

In conclusion: Punish them for using a flaw in the rules, reward them for being creative.

[Sigreid]

You don't really need to stop them from ever doing it again. IMO you just need to make it naturally apparent that even when it's a good trick, being a one trick pony has problems.

[Tanarii]

All this building encounters around 8 pixies stuff seems awfully complicated to just adjudicating the spell. Tell the player something like '8 pixies is unbalanced in my judgement, you can get two max. Pick 6 of something else.'

It's not changing RAW (which doesn't specify player picks), it's RAI (see Sage Advice), and it's a ruling for the sake of your game.

I would recommend telling them outside of a game session if you have the kind of players that are going to argue with you.

[Rhedyn]

We're in the rules does it say the DM choose the creatures summon?

The rules don't but the devs did because they are bad at their jobs.

The root of the problem is that polymorph is poorly designed and that throws off the CR calculation.

[tieren]

Polymorph doesn't let you keep your brain the way wildshape does.

T-rex can't concentrate on spells. If pixie polymorphs druid, conjure woodland beings ends and so does their polymorphs.

[Unoriginal]

Polymorph doesn't let you keep your brain the way wildshape does.

T-rex can't concentrate on spells. If pixie polymorphs druid, conjure woodland beings ends and so does their polymorphs.

Indeed.

It seems I've misunderstood OP, I thought the Druid stayed untransformed.

[Biggstick]

Polymorph doesn't let you keep your brain the way wildshape does.

T-rex can't concentrate on spells. If pixie polymorphs druid, conjure woodland beings ends and so does their polymorphs.

That would make the Transmutation Wizard's level 10 ability pretty worthless then.

Shapechanger. At 10th level, you add the Polymorph spell to your spellbook, if it is not there already. You can cast Polymorph without expending a spell slot. When you do so, you can target only yourself and transform into a beast whose challenge rating is 1 or lower. Once you cast Polymorph in this way, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest, though you can still cast it normally using an available spell slot.

You can still concentrate on spells while you're Polymorphed.

[Temperjoke]

To be honest, I don't think that it's the whole pixies/T-Rex thing that's the real problem here. This player is looking for a way to trivialize any combat situation. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does make things boring. And if it wasn't via this method, then it would have been some other method. You need to have a conversation with the player, and explain that you're not trying to be a jerk, but it's getting boring with them doing the same thing, and you are contemplating ways that will counter it that the player probably would like less.

If you can't have this sort of conversation with your players, then why are you playing with them?

[Unoriginal]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.

[tieren]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.

Indeed, if I polymorph the enemy caster into a snail I would expect him to break concentration on any spells he was holding.

[jaappleton]

You're about to get pissed when you find out that there's a new Titanosaurus.

Yes. Titanosaurus.

CR7
AC 17
HP 201
Gargantuan size
+13 to hit, 45 damage

And it's AL legal. Part of the Guild Artisans stuff.

Oh, and it has Legendary Actions.

[Biggstick]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.

Indeed, if I polymorph the enemy caster into a snail I would expect him to break concentration on any spells he was holding.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/22...concentration/

It would appear you can maintain concentration on a spell if you've cast it before being Polymorphed. This would in my mind include when you Polymorph yourself.

[SharkForce]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/22...concentration/

It would appear you can maintain concentration on a spell if you've cast it before being Polymorphed. This would in my mind include when you Polymorph yourself.

as noted, the transmuter literally gets a polymorph ability that can only be used on themselves. there's no question of it. it doesn't even remotely suggest in the rules anywhere that you can't concentrate when you're polymorphed. nothing ever remotely states that concentration is an ability that only a person with the spellcasting feature has. anyone can concentrate.

but seriously, doing a ton of ridiculous stuff because something is broken is silly. pixies are the wrong CR. polymorph is overpowered. you should still talk to the players about fixing those things (to explain *why* you're fixing those things), but you should also fix those things, because they shouldn't be in the game, and no, you shouldn't have to give the players input on it. tweaking the game rules as needed is part of the DM's job. they already agreed to you doing this kind of thing when they agreed on you being the DM.

[StorytellerHero]

PIXIE #1: What's a "T-Rex"?

PIXIE #2: Oooooh I know! It's a type of underwear that the big people use to cover their crotchies.

PIXIE #3: Shaped like a "T"!

PIXIE #4: Okay then! Everyone turns into T-Rexes! Underwear for all!

PIXIES #1-3: YAAAAAAAAAAY!

DRUID: No, wait! W-

[imanidiot]

So, I have this Druid in my game. And he chose polymorph for one of his fourth level spells, which is fine. But the thing is, his favorite thing to do now is to transform either himself or one of the other party members into a T-Rex because of their hit points and high damage attacks. At first it was funny, and then it got sort of annoying, but now I think he found a cheat code that is really ridiculous.

He casts conjure woodland beings and summons a whole bunch of pixies, and then he commands them to use their own polymorph spell on all of the party members so EVERYONE is a T-Rex...

And I can't find a rule or anything that would disallow that, but he's using it like every encounter. So now I just have a pack of T-Rexs as a party.

What do I do as a DM?

Make them fight a druid that does the same thing. If they're doing it every battle it's obviously a common tactic in your world among those who are capable of it.

[jaappleton]

I'm sure word has spread of the parties tactics if they're doing it EVERY battle. Its not every day that 5 T-Rex's are seen in your world, is it?

Surely, enemies would begin using Counterspell and Dispel Magic?

[Zanthy1]

RAW it is legit. Remember you as the DM decide what woodland creatures show up. If pixies are summoned however, simply have them taken out via magic missile or something. They are low HP and magic missile doesn't miss.

[Unoriginal]

I'm sure word has spread of the parties tactics if they're doing it EVERY battle. Its not every day that 5 T-Rex's are seen in your world, is it?

Surely, enemies would begin using Counterspell and Dispel Magic?

Don't even need counter-magic. Even enemies who are at borderline Stone Age level just have to set up a few traps and ambushes, like pits with sharpened sticks at the bottom, huge logs tied to ropes up in trees, or ropes to get in the dino's legs and making them fall.

And that's saying nothing of more technologically advanced people. Bear traps, harpoons with chains, poisoned or fire arrows, etc.

And then there are the war engines, for added punch.