OOTS #1101 - The Discussion Thread

[alwaysbebatman]

I don't think Rich is going to rule that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is as broken as making it equivalent to Animate Dead. I suspect it'll be a little harder to create vampire spawn than skeletons, and that not needing material components will also raise the level of the spell.

It is harder to speed vampires-- they have more HD. The fact that a vampire is tougher, HD for HD, than a skeleton is balanced by the fact that Animate Dead gives the caster the power to create undead, while Rapid Vamp only makes a power you already have to create vampires more convenient and effective.

Pretty sure that Mr. Burlew doesn't show material component use regularly.

I'm gonna guess with enthusiastic optimism that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is level 3 or 4 and works on one target at a time; and that therefore, Team Fangface has paid a significant price in spell slots available for the coming battle with OotS in order to create this horde.

Don't forget that dusk passed, so they had two days of spells to work with. They could spam this spell before dusk, then stock up on combat useful spells. Or if they crunched the numbers and decided vamps were more valuable than spells, they could spam this spell times two, then rely on vampiric abilities.

[alowe]

Sometimes OOTS has the power to cancel all the bad in the world, if for but a moment.

[Shining Wrath]

The battle of the Temple happened "a little before dusk". Greg & co. have refreshed their spell slots since they turned all these into vampires. But if it really is one vampire per slot, I don't think they had enough slots between the whole lot of them to raise this many, plus the other spells we have seen them cast, plus whatever spells they needed for the fight.

GW

So it's perhaps some sort of compromise - multiple vampire spawn per casting, but only one vampire proper?

It is harder to speed vampires-- they have more HD. The fact that a vampire is tougher, HD for HD, than a skeleton is balanced by the fact that Animate Dead gives the caster the power to create undead, while Rapid Vamp only makes a power you already have to create vampires more convenient and effective.

Pretty sure that Mr. Burlew doesn't show material component use regularly.



Don't forget that dusk passed, so they had two days of spells to work with. They could spam this spell before dusk, then stock up on combat useful spells. Or if they crunched the numbers and decided vamps were more valuable than spells, they could spam this spell times two, then rely on vampiric abilities.

Point conceded regarding material components not always being shown. Counter-point: unless there were stockpiles of onyx gems on the Mechane (why?), or in the Temple atop Mount Zenith (freshly created for the occasion, that's why Gontor et al were low on spells), Durkula has had no opportunity to stock up on the necessary material components - if Malack's Vampire Accelerator is that similar to Animate Dead.

We really don't know if Rich has bothered to write out a formal Malack's Vampire Accelerator spell at all; more likely, it works the way the story needs it to work. Our best way to guess how it works is therefore meta-analysis rather than the 3.5 rules-lawyership we're all so fond of.

From a meta-perspective, it seems best to me, story-wise, that Team Fangface paid a significant cost in resources of some sort to create this horde.
First, if this is easy, there is no way to stop them. Game over, they win. If it only requires them to kill a few dozen people and spend 3 mid level spell slots to create a horde like this, OotS is going to have to fight through 5 or 10 hordes to even reach the final battle.
Second, why would Malack bother to place a 3rd level spell requiring no components into his staff? He didn't create "children" often, it would have been easy to prepare the spell once per day as part of his normal load-out.

Either the horde requires significant spell slots, or the horde requires scarce resources. Otherwise, it's "broken", from a story perspective and from a D&D rules perspective.

Freely admitting that I'm guessing, I think this is *not* something Team Fangface can do casually.

[kenlund]

Now those words that everyone playing D&D waits to hear....
Roll for initiative!!
I wonder if the vampires will get a surprise round on some of the the Order?

[Fincher]

Who's that in the bottom-right of the last panel, below Elan? It kind-of looks like Durkon - is it Durkula, or just another Vampire dwarf that's risen up behind them?

If you look at the first panel on the third row, there's three vampires lying on the ground. All three of them are standing at the bottom of the last panel.

[Finagle]

I'm revisiting strips 1086 and 1087, and I have the feeling that there is an implicit hiatus between them in which Greg's underlings did in fact cast the "hasten vampire awakening" spell on the victims. ("Everything's ready, Master", "Excellent. Thank you")

It's worse than that - in 1088 the vampires discuss resting and regaining spells. So all those spells they cast to animate the vampires? They'll be at full strength when they meet OOTS before the dwarven council vote.

[Jasdoif]

We really don't know if Rich has bothered to write out a formal Malack's Vampire Accelerator spell at all

I would guess probably not.

Second, why would Malack bother to place a 3rd level spell requiring no components into his staff? He didn't create "children" often, it would have been easy to prepare the spell once per day as part of his normal load-out.

A spell you like having available but won't come up often enough to justify having the slot occupied "just in case" sounds like exactly the kind of thing to have in magic item form, to me.

Either the horde requires significant spell slots, or the horde requires scarce resources.

Or the actual impact of the horde as a whole will be negligible enough that it isn't worth worrying about the specifics, like what happened to its cousin horde.

[Keltest]

I would guess probably not.

I suspect that Rich will, at the very least, probably throw a dart on a board to pick out a spell level, just so he has a sort of general idea of how much power Greg loses when he prepares that particular spell, should he ever actually decide that Greg is preparing it some more. Given that Greg's lifespan can probably be measured in hours now, I doubt he will prepare it again, but hey, plot twists happen.

[Peelee]

Sun bears are among the smallest bears, but "this cuddly teddy bear is also a nightlight that blocks negative energy and repels some undead" seemed more amusing/appropriate.

Ah. I've heard of water bears, but not sun bears.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would guess probably not.

On the other paw, Rich did eyeball the level of the Mass Death Ward.

GW

[Ganbatte]

Sure, speeding up the process is huge (the "several days before transformation" is there because of the source material, but also because it offers a time frame where you can "save" someone from turning into a monster, and to avoid the "vampire strikes in a market, city is doomed" kind of attacks we see here), and kinda cheap.

Yeah "cheap" is the definition I think of it too. Hopefully there'll be some tradeoff or equivalent exchange that had to be paid to counterbalance the OP.

Again drama happens when things are difficult for the heroes and easier for the villains.
If it requires a bit of rule-tweaking on the side so be it. Did you not listen to Tarquin on 821 ?

I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I always enjoyed more those kind of stories where the villains get things done by their own worth and craftiness and tricking the heroes by themselves rather than "rule-tweaking on the side" and asspulls. A villain that's dangerous because he's good at what he does always feels more compelling than one with luck and a GM by his side.
Giving the villains an edge to make the heroes' victory greater is always good and nice but you have to keep restraint in mind, otherwise the story will get that feeling of "cheesiness" when things go just a little bit too well too often "on just one side".
I suppose it's a matter of personal standards in appreciating storytelling.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That was a pun?

It's the ursine equivalent of an ankle biter.

But what's the thing vampires hate more than anything? Hint--rhymes with pun.

[Yendor]

On the other paw, Rich did eyeball the level of the Mass Death Ward.

It is a little more plot-critical, though.

But what's the thing vampires hate more than anything? Hint--rhymes with pun.

Fun?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah "cheap" is the definition I think of it too. Hopefully there'll be some tradeoff or equivalent exchange that had to be paid to counterbalance the OP.

And why is it cheap for vampires when it is not for shadows, spectres, wraiths or wights?

As to a trade-off, there has been none, nor will there be for this group. Whatever spells they used are replenished, and this idea it would cost XP to accelerate soemthing that would happen anyway is unsupported by any other spell I can think of. Teleport accelerates going from A to B, and no-one pays XP for it, even if it does save them 3 days of walking.

It is a little more plot-critical, though.

Not really. I'd say they're about equally relevant, given that both were used by or on Durkon. In fact, I'd say the ability of the vampires to skip the wait has been far more plot critical than Durkon's failed spell (although the door is open for it to be relevant down the line)

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

I would guess probably not.

A spell you like having available but won't come up often enough to justify having the slot occupied "just in case" sounds like exactly the kind of thing to have in magic item form, to me.

Or the actual impact of the horde as a whole will be negligible enough that it isn't worth worrying about the specifics, like what happened to its cousin horde.

Uh ... that horde ran into the most powerful assembly of clerics in the region of the Northern Pantheon. That's not healthy for vampires.

There is a non-negligible cost associated with making a staff and loading a spell into it. Malack said his staff had "many obscure spells". If Malack's Vampire Accelerator is of level L, and is cast at the minimum possible level of the greater of CL=(8 or L*2-1), the cost is 187.5*L*CL, assuming it's not one of the top two spells. For level 3, that's 4500. For level 4, 6000. It's twice that cost if Malack's Vampire Accelerator is the highest level spell in the staff. If it isn't, though, the requirement for the caster level to be the same for all spells in the staff kicks in; if there's even one spell that Malack wanted at CL 10, Malack's Vampire Accelerator is also CL 10 and 25% more expensive.

Making a wand of only a single spell costs 5,625 GP for level 3, 10,500 for level 4.

Making a scroll costs 187.5 GP for level 3, 350 GP for level 4.

If he's only going to cast it once in a while, why not a scroll?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Uh ... that horde ran into the most powerful assembly of clerics in the region of the Northern Pantheon. That's not healthy for vampires.

Half of which were defending the vampires, not attacking them, and proved to be very healthy for the vampires, in the form of healing, bolstering and protection from various energy sources.

If he's only going to cast it once in a while, why not a scroll?

Because he can easily afford all those really rather minimal costs, given that he has the resources of an entire country at his disposal? You really think he can't afford to gift himself a 20k GP staff? And of course a staff with all the minor spells he might need in a rare case is better than hauling a large amount of scrolls. Also, staffs can be crafted to be rechargeable. When you expect to unlive forever, a staff becomes economical quickly. How many times could he have cast the Protection from Sun from scrolls before it became more expensive than to do it from a rechargeable staff?

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

The Vampire spawn were a surprise-- both to the audience and to the party. But they shouldn't have been. The clues to realize Durkon* would do this were there if we had seen them. That's excellent misdirection, not cheese.

Durkon* didn't get that spell as a sudden deus ex gift. He learned a spell we had every reason to suspect how powerful it would be, and every reason to realize he had the opportunity to learn it.

We saw Malack create an army of mummies. We saw vampire spawn taken out in one or two hits at Godsmoot, from which we can conclude they aren't individually strong enough that an army of them is particularly different from an army of mummies. We saw Durkon* sequestered in his cabin doing eldritch things to Malack's staff.

Durkon* planned, deceived, and worked for this reveal. It seemed sudden to us and to the protagonists, but it was not sudden, it was not unearned cheese. It only seemed sudden to us because Mr. Burlew did a great job at his shell game-- and to the protagonists because Durkon* succeeded at his shell game likewise.

[Yendor]

Not really. I'd say they're about equally relevant, given that both were used by or on Durkon. In fact, I'd say the ability of the vampires to skip the wait has been far more plot critical than Durkon's failed spell (although the door is open for it to be relevant down the line)

I meant, compared to Tsukiko's spell.

[alwaysbebatman]

I meant, compared to Tsukiko's spell.

You mean you had Mass Death Ward confused with Tsukiko's spell? If so: fair enough.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I meant, compared to Tsukiko's spell.

OK, that one I can grant was not particularly plot-critical, but then I'm a bit lost as to what your point is. If Rich only bothers to eyeball plot-critical spells, he'd still would've eyeballed the level of the quicken Vampire one, wouldn't he?

GW

[Fyraltari]

I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I always enjoyed more those kind of stories where the villains get things done by their own worth and craftiness and tricking the heroes by themselves rather than "rule-tweaking on the side" and asspulls. A villain that's dangerous because he's good at what he does always feels more compelling than one with luck and a GM by his side.
Giving the villains an edge to make the heroes' victory greater is always good and nice but you have to keep restraint in mind, otherwise the story will get that feeling of "cheesiness" when things go just a little bit too well too often "on just one side".
I suppose it's a matter of personal standards in appreciating storytelling.

That guy is not crafty enough for you ? He has the Order and the reader dancing to his tune like he was Mozart reborn ! He manipuled the Order into bringing him to a secret meeting he should not have known existed without it being suspicious despite a GOD trying to warn them, he spawned a horde of cleric-vampires when he saw an opportunity and hijacked Roy's plan on the off-chance a demi-god would change his mind, he spawned a SECOND horde as part of Odin knows what other preparations he has and he almost killed Roy in one-on-one combat.
And he had no time to prepare that !

This is in no way an ass-pull, the spell's existence was explained before and he already used it in the exact same way !

RC and Xykon getting a thousand-strong army out of nowhere that was an ass-pull. This is not.

Yes that spell is convienient but it is not the magically-able-to-resist-any-of-the-heroes-power convienient that you see in some other (inferior) stories.

[Jasdoif]

Uh ... that horde ran into the most powerful assembly of clerics in the region of the Northern Pantheon. That's not healthy for vampires.

Exactly. Story-wise, the horde covered the escape of HPoH and three other vampires. Soaking fire was the extent of its significance, and that doesn't need a dedicated explanation.

There is a non-negligible cost associated with making a staff and loading a spell into it. Malack said his staff had "many obscure spells". If Malack's Vampire Accelerator is of level L, and is cast at the minimum possible level of the greater of CL=(8 or L*2-1), the cost is 187.5*L*CL, assuming it's not one of the top two spells. For level 3, that's 4500. For level 4, 6000. It's twice that cost if Malack's Vampire Accelerator is the highest level spell in the staff. If it isn't, though, the requirement for the caster level to be the same for all spells in the staff kicks in; if there's even one spell that Malack wanted at CL 10, Malack's Vampire Accelerator is also CL 10 and 25% more expensive.

The primary feature of a staff is that you use your own caster level (and save DC) instead of the staff's, if it's higher. If you've got multiple obscure spells for esoteric scenarios, that have dependencies on caster level and/or saves; you can get a lot of mileage out of loading up a staff so the option is there if a call for it comes up, and you don't need to rebuild every time you gain a caster level (to say nothing of saves, which are the minimum possible when cast from a typical magic item).

Making a wand of only a single spell costs 5,625 GP for level 3, 10,500 for level 4.

Making a scroll costs 187.5 GP for level 3, 350 GP for level 4.

If he's only going to cast it once in a while, why not a scroll?

Overlooking the "why isn't a character in Order of the Stick playing optimally" angle....I don't think he was expecting to cast it once a while. I don't think he was expecting to want to cast it again at all, until he was in the situation, but there was no point in throwing out the staff just because of that.

[alwaysbebatman]

That guy is not crafty enough for you ? He has the Order and the reader dancing to his tune like he was Mozart reborn !

[Ganbatte]

This is in no way an ass-pull, the spell's existence was explained before and he already used it in the exact same way!

Except he didn't. He used the staff there, whose creation cost and limited charges offset the powerful effect its use had.
Being able to now achieve the same results basically at will totally changes that balance into "cheesy" territory.

[alwaysbebatman]

The creation cost of a staff is in GP, so was basically nothing for Malack who had the resources of an empire behind him.

The creation cost of a staff is even MORE irrelevant when you didn't create the staff at all, but yoinked it from your deceased creator's ashes.

ETA: Also, the number of charges on the staff were limited only in theory. It was never established how many charges the staff had, so it was limited only by plot.

Contrariwise, Durkon's use of this spell has a hard daily limit, and he has to use spell slots that he then can't use for other spells.

(Now, if we're right that it's a third level spell and quickness caster level * 2 HD of Vamps per casting, that limit is REALLY high, if he knows he won't need his slots for anything else before dusk.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except he didn't. He used the staff there, whose creation cost and limited charges offset the powerful effect its use had.
Being able to now achieve the same results basically at will totally changes that balance into "cheesy" territory.

No it doesn't. Anything that can be done by a staff created by a level 12 character (Malack) should be easily reproducible by a level 15 character.

There are endless examples of powerful magic that V can do practically at will. They even won a fight on that basis alone. There is literally no reason for your complain. We knew it could be done, we had seen it in action, and we saw Greg take steps to learn the ability. Nothing in this sequence of events requires this to cost XP, or to use levels of magic that weren't available to Malack. Accelerating the vampire resurrection, therefore, is not as expensive as you are asserting is must be.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Half of which were defending the vampires, not attacking them, and proved to be very healthy for the vampires, in the form of healing, bolstering and protection from various energy sources.



Because he can easily afford all those really rather minimal costs, given that he has the resources of an entire country at his disposal? You really think he can't afford to gift himself a 20k GP staff? And of course a staff with all the minor spells he might need in a rare case is better than hauling a large amount of scrolls. Also, staffs can be crafted to be rechargeable. When you expect to unlive forever, a staff becomes economical quickly. How many times could he have cast the Protection from Sun from scrolls before it became more expensive than to do it from a rechargeable staff?

Grey Wolf

Maybe some ... but Sunna's cleric, among others, seems to have switched sides. And my sense is that the bodyguards on the balcony were pretty much united in their desire to rain death upon the insufficiently dead.

The cost to Malack also includes 1 day per 1,000 GP of the spell - and while he expects to live forever, that doesn't mean he wants to spend a week, more or less, loading a spell into the staff that he could simply and easily prepare as part of the ~35 spells prepared daily?

Malack never expected to encounter an enemy without warning, which is why Nale's attack worked. His daily preparations didn't need to be combat-optimal.

[Ganbatte]

It's funny because you keep throwing around technicalities and nitpicks that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

[alwaysbebatman]

Nobody knows what you're talking about, because your arguments don't hold up at all.... and you are the one nitpicking.

[Ganbatte]

Ah yes, more passive-aggressive assertions and implying that I'm dumb. For a second I forgot on which forum I was.