Reading Heir to the Empire

[Fyraltari]

Sigh. It's stuff like this that makes Thrawn uncompelling. The book refuses to allow him to be wrong, even to the point of just dropping the Rebel plans into his mind without any information to draw the conclusion. People with actual precognition and mind reading powers in this setting have to work harder than that to discern their enemies' intentions. There are other ways he could have learned this if it's necessary for him to discover the feint.

I disagree, he is completely wrong about the Noghri.
And really he knows what the Republic needs and he knows where those things are so the question is "Are the people whose every move have been predicted so far going to take the safe but predictable route or the risky but improbable one?"

Those are the people that destroyed a Death Star with 30 fighters. Don't need to be a genius to figure that one out.

[Cikomyr]

Groups of ysalamiri reinforce each other, creating larger bubbles. Luke doesn't get his Force-senses back until they are in orbit over Myrkr.

This would suggest that the vornskrs are always in ysalamir fields (hence Luke being unable to use the Force while fighting the vornskrs that are drawn to him).

Hence my conclusion that the field does not suppress a vornskr's Force senses as much as it does a Jedi's - the co-evolution has meant that the vornskrs are able to overcome the field, at least partially.

Not necessarily. Assuming Myrk has a size similar to Earth, Luke could be in considered "in orbit" as early as 160 km in altitude. So the antimagic sphere only extend that much, leaving a large area of the planet unobscured to the Force, and plenty of place for the Vorksns to use their magical hunting powers.

[hamishspence]

If it extends in all directions, there are ysalamiri throughout the forest, and the vornskrs only hunt in the forest, then it's reasonable to conclude that the vornskrs can cope with the fields, rather than that they only hunt in "non-field areas".

Especially given that they keep on attacking Luke and Mara throughout their journey.

[Sapphire Guard]

I wonder why vornskyrs are aggressive towards Force sensitives, then, rather than just lifeforms? Unless ysalamiri negate the Force through the Force, but what would distinguish that from the sense of another vornskyr using the Force to hunt? How does a Force sensitive that is cut off from the Force trip their alarm bells but not a non Force sensitive? Hmm.

This is not a criticism, I'm just interested.

I disagree, he is completely wrong about the Noghri.]

Less 'wrong', than 'can't possibly know'. He knew something was up with Khabarakh, but had no reason to possibly know Leia and Chewbacca were in the village. He is aware that something is wrong with the Noghri, but has no information to conclude what yet.

His one mistake was failure to interrogate Khabarakh, but I'm not sure how much that would have got him, given that Khabarakh probably has resisting interrogation training and knows his village and world are on the line.

This latest chapter was as if Thrawn looked at the history of the Noghri carved on the wall and was able to tell from this artwork carved years ago that Leia was at this exact second in the bakehouse.

And really he knows what the Republic needs and he knows where those things are so the question is "Are the people whose every move have been predicted so far going to take the safe but predictable route or the risky but improbable one?"

But how does he know they're not going after CGT no. 3?

CH21:

Mara is trying to hit a seedpod that Luke is floating in front of her. Eventually she gives up and stabs it. Luke is impressed, which annoys her. C3PO is complaining, of course. They come across another set of cut, camouflaged vines.

Later, they're setting up camp for the night when they sense two groups of minds approaching. They're going to meet them when they nearly accidentally kill a Noghri coming to say hello. He leads them to a clearing where natives are assembled.

One set has four arms and height, and the others have rocklike plate armour. They've come to talk this time, and the value of bringing C3PO rises again. Both I and the characters are getting Endor flashbacks. The Noghri hid because they thought Han didn't like them, but he doesn't ever pass up 'free help.' He prefers Noghri to Ewoks, on the whole.

The natives don't know what to make of the outsiders, but they feel they're probably not good news. The Noghri say they'll free them from the Empire, and the natives say 'we've heard that before.' Colonists, the Empire, Guardian, Jedi (C'Baoth), and Empire again, all tried to subjugate the locals. Luke is wondering how to prove their intentions when a predator sneaking up on the meeting is killed by Chewbacca. An armed Wookiee actually helps their cause, as they realise he's not a slave. Beautiful touch, that.

A discussion ensues, and the party are granted safe conduct.

General Covell is sitting with C'Baoth, essentially being puppeteered through the Force. They have a discussion about power that is C'Baoth essentially talking to himself, and then C'Baoth senses Skywalker and Mara. Then C'Baoth leaves his mind, and he can be puppeteered through voice alone.

Mara is on guard, and she notices that the Noghri have realised the Empire's trickery. They're going to strike back and have specific goals on Wayland in that regard. The Noghri then reveal that Luke is Vader's son, which Mara never knew. Then C'Baoth reaches for them, but gets cut off mid gloat. Luke, woken up, wonders if he has been trapped by ysalamiri.

CH22:

Pellaeon receives a report from Wayland and Thrawn arrives before he can view it.

General Covell mysteriously died in his sleep, and the medics aren't sure why. This conversation happens.

Subordinate: Statement!

Thrawn: Contradiction!

Subordinate: I know. I didn't mean it like that.

Thrawn: I know you didn't. ( I understood, I just chose to correct you on semantics during this urgent message because I like doing that.)

Col. Selid, the Wayland Commander, then elaborates: Gen Wavell's troops touched down six hours before the message. He refused to take command of the garrison, spoke to his troops privately, then dispersed them outside the mountain after gearing them up and doing something within the garrison. C'Baoth was at his side the entire time, and is now resident in the Emperor's old chambers. Thrawn orders a call put through.

C'Baoth is unhappy about being cut off from the Force. Thrawn is unhappy about C'Baoth puppeteering his general to the point he couldn't function independently and died.

Thrawn then orders C'Baoth placed under arrest, the garrison investigated, and Covell's troops barred from the mountain. Pellaeon wonders about the safety of leaving C'Baoth there, and Thrawn shrugs it off. He intends to Clone the Jedi so he can have a new Force wielder, and then sets course for Bilbringi.

Wedge and Rogue Squadron are drinking. A random drunk man staggers up and wraps his arms around him, and forces his friend to help. It's Aves. The smugglers help take an Imperial spy off their backs, which is unfortunate as the whole idea of this is to catch their attention. Wedge implies a timeline of twenty eight hours, assuming that Aves is going to sell it to the Empire.

So, we're gearing up for a final confrontation here. Karrde and the Republic appear to be at cross purposes (I'd kind of expect Ghent to pick up the real plan really.) Thrawn knows the plan, and I'm really hoping C'Baoth has something special up his sleeve, this confrontation has been building for three books and hasn't come to much so far. The Emperor probably has some more fun toys hidden away, hopefully he can make use of them.

[Fyraltari]

I wonder why vornskyrs are aggressive towards Force sensitives, then, rather than just lifeforms? Unless ysalamiri negate the Force through the Force, but what would distinguish that from the sense of another vornskyr using the Force to hunt? How does a Force sensitive that is cut off from the Force trip their alarm bells but not a non Force sensitive? Hmm.

I guess Force sensitive smell like they taste better.

Less 'wrong', than 'can't possibly know'. He knew something was up with Khabarakh, but had no reason to possibly know Leia and Chewbacca were in the village. He is aware that something is wrong with the Noghri, but has no information to conclude what yet.

His one mistake was failure to interrogate Khabarakh, but I'm not sure how much that would have got him, given that Khabarakh probably has resisting interrogation training and knows his village and world are on the line.

That is my point. He makes correct deductions based on the information he has, nothing more. So while he is never wrong (as in makes a wrong reasoning) he still reaches wrong conclusions when operating on flawed premises.

This latest chapter was as if Thrawn looked at the history of the Noghri carved on the wall and was able to tell from this artwork carved years ago that Leia was at this exact second in the bakehouse.

It's not like he guessed their battle plan or anything. He justwent "Oh look like they are to attack A. Sounds improbable. Must be a diversion."
He isn't risking much on that bet anyway. Should the Republic win then they the war will go on longer but the Imperials won't lose anything too valuable, the Coruscant Siege can't hold on forever and the Imperials still have the upper hand.

But how does he know they're not going after CGT no. 3?

I guess there are only two of those in the galaxy. It's weak I know but if there weren't the Rpublic wouldn't need a battle to get one and they're just McGuffins anyway.

I'm really hoping C'Baoth has something special up his sleeve, this confrontation has been building for three books and hasn't come to much so far. The Emperor probably has some more fun toys hidden away, hopefully he can make use of them.

Spoiler

Show

Well, there is that "special clone" chekov gun you seem to have forgotten about.

*Maniacal laughter*

[Blackhawk748]

My guess would be is that Luke is crazy powerful in the force so while a Vornskyr is a candle or a torch, Luke is a flipping Volcano.

[pendell]

C'Baoth is unhappy about being cut off from the Force. Thrawn is unhappy about C'Baoth puppeteering his general to the point he couldn't function independently and died.

So far as I'm concerned C'baoth's mindrape of GEN Covell is on par with any of the evil that the Emperor did. While Alderaan and all the atrocities were more terrible wholesale atrocities I can't remember the Emperor doing something this terrible to any single individual. The Emperor destroyed bodies; C'baoth took Covell's soul.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

So far as I'm concerned C'baoth's mindrape of GEN Covell is on par with any of the evil that the Emperor did. While Alderaan and all the atrocities were more terrible wholesale atrocities I can't remember the Emperor doing something this terrible to any single individual.

Bevel Lemelisk was probably the individual most cruelly treated by the Emperor - being executed slowly and painfully multiple times (his mind transferred into a clone).

When it comes to "destroying somebody's mind through the Force" there's also a reference in Children of the Jedi:


Mara Jade: "They mostly did it with semisentients: Ranats, Avogui, Zelosian Aga, cidwen. They'd use them for enclosure guards in places where they needed stormtroopers for other work. Drug them with a hallucingen like brain-jagger or Black Hole, something that worked on the fear/rage centers of the brain. They'd use the dark side of the Force to burn it into them, make it permanent, like a constant waking nightmare. They'd hunt and kill anything that came their way. Palpatine could drive them with his mind, call them or dismiss them ... I don't know of anyone else that could calm them down."

[russdm]

...Really? This is a Galactic Republic, and they can't fight two battles at once? While I just finished defending the scale of the war, that's very strange.

Think this fits in with what we know of the Rebellion and how they acted in the original trilogy to be reactive until carrying out the Endor attack where they were partially proactive.

In Episode 4, Tantive 4 was attacked and defended, The Death Star attacks and the Rebels send ships.

In Episode 5, Empire attacks Hoth

In Episode 6, Empire builds Death Star 2, Rebels martial for a strike at it.

In these books, Thrawn does various attacks, Rebels attack.

Have the rebels been ever proactive, actually rebelling? I know that in Rogue One, the rebels do be active.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's not like he guessed their battle plan or anything. He justwent "Oh look like they are to attack A. Sounds improbable. Must be a diversion."
He isn't risking much on that bet anyway. Should the Republic win then they the war will go on longer but the Imperials won't lose anything too valuable, the Coruscant Siege can't hold on forever and the Imperials still have the upper hand.
But how does he know they're not going after CGT no. 3?
I guess there are only two of those in the galaxy. It's weak I know but if there weren't the Rpublic wouldn't need a battle to get one and they're just McGuffins anyway.

My book says there's at least 3.

It didn't sound improbable. All military sense said it was what they were doing. But he studied some artwork and said 'no, they're going for this other CGT' rather than the third one, to the point of ignoring the opinions of his subordinates.

CH23:

Leia is in the Archives researching Cloning. Bel Ibliss believes the asteroids are gone, but no one else buys it. She discusses things with Winter, then is pinged because the Wild Karrde wants to talk to her.[/I]

Karrde says hello, talks shop for a bit, then asks after Mara. They arrange a secure channel courtesy of Ghent, and Leia carefully expands on her circumstances. Karrde asks about the siege, and she actually tells him, whereupon he says that having seen the 22 asteroids on Bilbringi, he's pretty sure they've already cleared them. They don't quite buy it, but Leia's willing to let him land.

Leia then comes to a conclusion re cloning. The reason for Clone instability is the Force, which prevents a Clone from adjusting to its circumstances...unless you block the Force with ysalamiri from the Cloning facility. Which Admiral Thrawn figured out. Somehow.

They still don't have the resources to hit both Wayland and Bilbringi. So when Karrde lands, Leia explains where Mara really is, and asks about transport there. Karrde wants to agree, but he needs to find a way to pay for his smuggling army to keep it together.

Leia's Noghri bodyguard picks up Fey'lya eavesdropping. He wants to prioritise Wayland, as there's something there disastrous to the Bothans and the galaxy. Karrde extorts 70,000 for the privilege.

Leia is reminded of Han, but says nothing.

CH24:

On Wayland, the gang are watching Mount Tantiss, which is heavily guarded. Han notes some kind of Psadan (the rock people) assembly, led by one holding a datapad. Luke notices the ysalamiri field.

The main entrance is impregnable. Fortunately, Mara knows a back door.

Aves is onboard ship in Bilbringi, making an innocuous delivery, with Gillespee in tow. They're wondering why Karrde isn't here.

Rogue Squadron is prepping for action off Bilbringi.

Pellaeon is reading reports on the coming rebel attack at Tangrene, quietly annoyed that Thrawn is ignoring his opinion as usual at such a critical moment. Thrawn tells him to prepare to be proved wrong, and Pellaeon hopes he is.

Luke et al are at the secret entrance when they hear blaster fire from some distance away. The Myneyrshi have sent representatives, and Han goes to see what they want. R2 plugs into a terminal, and Mara asks Luke to kill her if C'Baoth turns her. He doesn't refuse, but has no intention of obliging.

The Myneyrshi followed the party hoping they'd find a backdoor so they could kill Imperials. R2 reports that the Psadans are attacking the main gate demanding the release of C'Baoth. Heh. Not bad, hope he has something more, though. They're using modern weapons, probably the arsenal of Gen Covell. Luke assigns two Noghri to the Myneyrshi.

They move in.

In orbit, Karrde is watching the mountain. They have a fake Imperial ID. A Noghri recognition signal allows them to spot the secret entrance. They land fifteen minutes behind the first group, and Karrde brings out his vornskyrs, who will track Mara assuming they don't stop to eat ysalamiri along the way.

Plot heavy, pretty self explanatory.

[Fyraltari]

My book says there's at least 3.

Heh, it's been a while since I read it.

It didn't sound improbable. All military sense said it was what they were doing. But he studied some artwork and said 'no, they're going for this other CGT' rather than the third one, to the point of ignoring the opinions of his subordinates.

You misunderstand me. Having studied their artowrk, previous battles and deduced how they generally thinks, Thrawn comes to the conclusion that it would be improbable for these people to go with the predictable route rather than try to throw a curveball at him. People have paterns. If you know someone well enough you can guess when they are going to bluff. Thrawn just figured out a way to guess someone's psychology based on their art tastes and cultural background which, while I doubt would be feasible in real-life, is probable enough for star wars. As I said before, this is not a particularly wild guess nor does he risk much by being wrong.

[Peelee]

Leia's Noghri bodyguard picks up Fey'lya eavesdropping. He wants to prioritise Wayland, as there's something there disastrous to the Bothans and the galaxy. Karrde extorts 70,000 for the privilege.

Spoiler: Specter of the Past

Show

So I'm rereading the duology, and I was wondering how much detail was spent on Fey'lya gunning for Mount Tantis's eradication. Apparently, enough for Sapphire Guard to explicitly call it out.

Also, I'd forgotten how much I loved Major Tierce. I think he may be what Sapphire Guard wants; a Thrawn-like master tactician and strategist who is still very fallible.

I don't even know if any of that even counts as a spoiler, since it's all in the first chapter or two and it doesn't give away any events in The Last Command. At least, none that Sapphire Guard hasn't already gotten to.

[pendell]

Leia then comes to a conclusion re cloning. The reason for Clone instability is the Force, which prevents a Clone from adjusting to its circumstances...unless you block the Force with ysalamiri from the Cloning facility. Which Admiral Thrawn figured out. Somehow.

Go on; finish that thought. How would Admiral Thrawn have figured it out? The Disney Star Wars have spoiled you if you think he pulled it out of his creative spot .

I won't get into spoilers for the Spectre of the past/vision of the future duology; suffice it to say there's a lot you don't know about Thrawn or his backstory yet. A lot.

But I will say this: Zahn does his homework. If Thrawn knows something there's a reasonable way he could have got that information, and you already have enough to deduce at least some of it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Specter of the Past

Show

So I'm rereading the duology, and I was wondering how much detail was spent on Fey'lya gunning for Mount Tantis's eradication. Apparently, enough for Sapphire Guard to explicitly call it out.

Also, I'd forgotten how much I loved Major Tierce. I think he may be what Sapphire Guard wants; a Thrawn-like master tactician and strategist who is still very fallible.

I don't even know if any of that even counts as a spoiler, since it's all in the first chapter or two and it doesn't give away any events in The Last Command. At least, none that Sapphire Guard hasn't already gotten to.

Spoiler: Specter of the Past

Show

Personally, I thought that Fey'la had some idea of what other toys Mt Tantiss held through the Bothan Intelligence, and, following the lesson he had just received was just acting as a decent human sapient being and wanted to protect the Galaxy from them.
And then it turned out he just wanted to protect the reputation of his species/some powerful bothans.

So yeah I would spoiler that.

Go on; finish that thought. How would Admiral Thrawn have figured it out? The Disney Star Wars have spoiled you if you think he pulled it out of his creative spot .

I won't get into spoilers for the Spectre of the past/vision of the future duology; suffice it to say there's a lot you don't know about Thrawn or his backstory yet. A lot.

But I will say this: Zahn does his homework. If Thrawn knows something there's a reasonable way he could have got that information, and you already have enough to deduce at least some of it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You know, I had never realized the connection there. Awesome!

Unrelated, but does anyone know if the original Guardian appeared in any other work? Just who was that guy?

[Cikomyr]

Unrelated, but does anyone know if the original Guardian appeared in any other work? Just who was that guy?

I have my theory...

Spoiler

Show

[russdm]

My book says there's at least 3.

It didn't sound improbable. All military sense said it was what they were doing. But he studied some artwork and said 'no, they're going for this other CGT' rather than the third one, to the point of ignoring the opinions of his subordinates.

Pellaeon is reading reports on the coming rebel attack at Tangrene, quietly annoyed that Thrawn is ignoring his opinion as usual at such a critical moment. Thrawn tells him to prepare to be proved wrong, and Pellaeon hopes he is.

I would say that this is directly to how much the Rebels are overselling their attack. It's a little way too much, and so naturally Thrawn doesn't buy it. Maybe the rebels could have, or should have not been so overzealous in their preparations.

And then there is how good or terrible that the New Republic has been about stuff.

Of course, there is also the chance that Delta Source found out somehow about Tangrene being a fake out.

You misunderstand me. Having studied their artowrk, previous battles and deduced how they generally thinks, Thrawn comes to the conclusion that it would be improbable for these people to go with the predictable route rather than try to throw a curveball at him. People have paterns. If you know someone well enough you can guess when they are going to bluff. Thrawn just figured out a way to guess someone's psychology based on their art tastes and cultural background which, while I doubt would be feasible in real-life, is probable enough for star wars. As I said before, this is not a particularly wild guess nor does he risk much by being wrong.

I always figured that he just picked up on how much the rebels were overselling their attack plans. Too much noticeable preparations. Too many Imperial spies picking it up.

Spoiler: Specter of the Past

Show

Personally, I thought that Fey'la had some idea of what other toys Mt Tantiss held through the Bothan Intelligence, and, following the lesson he had just received was just acting as a decent human sapient being and wanted to protect the Galaxy from them.
And then it turned out he just wanted to protect the reputation of his species/some powerful bothans.

So yeah I would spoiler that.

Spoiler: A Response, Not Drunk (Don't Actually Drink)

Show

Considering how close to the New Republic comes to dissolving in a civil war, I would say that he had major reasons to be concerned. Only by sheer luck (And three star destroyers) did the New Republic survive. Given later events though, I really wished that the New Republic had collapsed. It was always practically on the verge of shattering apart in numerous books, and there was never any sense that the government/senate was capable of running the galaxy. of It made wish Thrawn had been able to impose his better empire over the galaxy. Or at least that he should have been able to significantly reconquer a large swash of the New Republic, which was not able to be retaken. Got annoyed at how simply incompetent that even our heroes turn out to be at times.


Why given events should we really care about the New Republic? Why should we root for it? Prefer the New Empire established by Thrawn then P to the New Republic any day.

[Fyraltari]

I would say that this is directly to how much the Rebels are overselling their attack. It's a little way too much, and so naturally Thrawn doesn't buy it. Maybe the rebels could have, or should have not been so overzealous in their preparations.

And then there is how good or terrible that the New Republic has been about stuff.

Of course, there is also the chance that Delta Source found out somehow about Tangrene being a fake out.



I always figured that he just picked up on how much the rebels were overselling their attack plans. Too much noticeable preparations. Too many Imperial spies picking it up.

A bit of this, a bit of that.

Spoiler: A Response, Not Drunk (Don't Actually Drink)

Show

Considering how close to the New Republic comes to dissolving in a civil war, I would say that he had major reasons to be concerned. Only by sheer luck (And three star destroyers) did the New Republic survive.

Why did you put your own spoiler in quotes?
Anyways:

Spoiler: Specter of the past

Show

But that only happen because the copy of the Document of Camaas they fing in the beginning is corrupted, which means that instead of a list of perpetrators they only have "bothans" to go by. The entire plot is about finding a better preserved copy. Fey'la had no way to knwo the copy was corrupted, (hell, it probably wasn't until the attack) which means that he couldn't foresee a civil war breaking out because of the stuff. And if he had and he was acting out of the goodness of his heart he would have made recovering the document a secondary objective so that the criminals could be tried or something.

Un spoilered the rest because it isn't about the Thrawn books but the EU in general:

Given later events though, I really wished that the New Republic had collapsed. It was always practically on the verge of shattering apart in numerous books, and there was never any sense that the government/senate was capable of running the galaxy. of It made wish Thrawn had been able to impose his better empire over the galaxy. Or at least that he should have been able to significantly reconquer a large swash of the New Republic, which was not able to be retaken. Got annoyed at how simply incompetent that even our heroes turn out to be at times.


Why given events should we really care about the New Republic? Why should we root for it? Prefer the New Empire established by Thrawn then P to the New Republic any day.

Yeah, that is my main beef with the old and new EU, for the sake of drama they weaken the accomplishments of the protagonists and make things easier for the antagonist which means that the example of democratic republic dedicated to the ideals of freedom, self-determination, multiculturalism and equality before thelaw end up looking ineffecient before the militarist nazi-inspired culturally-monolithic morally reugnant fascist junta. I mean as likeable as Thrawn and Pellaeon are, it's only because they stand next to people like Pallpatine and Isard. At the end of the day, Thrawn, pragmatic though he may be, is still a mass-murdering slaver tyrant and Pellaeon, honest and uncorruptible though he may be, is still fighting for the memory of an Empire willing to destroy untold billions in the name of satisfying the delusions of power of a cabal of megalomaniacs led by a decrepit old goblin of man out of some misplaced sense of patriotism.

We really shouldn't root for these people!

[Peelee]

A bit of this, a bit of that.


Why did you put your own spoiler in quotes?
Anyways:

Spoiler: Specter of the past

Show

But that only happen because the copy of the Document of Camaas they fing in the beginning is corrupted, which means that instead of a list of perpetrators they only have "bothans" to go by. The entire plot is about finding a better preserved copy. Fey'la had no way to knwo the copy was corrupted, (hell, it probably wasn't until the attack) which means that he couldn't foresee a civil war breaking out because of the stuff. And if he had and he was acting out of the goodness of his heart he would have made recovering the document a secondary objective so that the criminals could be tried or something.

Spoiler

Show

Also, the rumors of Thrawn's return was no small amount of fuel being thrown on the fire. The New Republic's general ineffectiveness coupled with a lot of deliberate and extremely effective antagonist by Moff Disra's triumvirate and the terror of one of their greatest foes being back in play.. a scheming Moff with a con man was able to paralyze the NR Senate and make them second guess themselves, even about the actual veracity of the claims that he had returned. They took a powder keg and wrapped it in nitroglycerine while pouring gasoline on the thing.

Plus, (and I was sad this wasn't addressed in the book), the Council of Clans knew about this. Fey'lya knew about this. That's not just a few individuals aiding and abetting genocide, that's a government cover-up on top of it. This is probably due to them not knowing who actually was involved and anticipating a reaction similar to what they got. As for finding a better preserved copy,
it's also hoping that the names are actually listed. It's like A New Hope, in a way; getting the thing safely in their hands is hugely important, but it's also a gamble and they don't know if it will actually have the information they want.

Un spoilered the rest because it isn't about the Thrawn books but the EU in general:

Given later events though, I really wished that the New Republic had collapsed. It was always practically on the verge of shattering apart in numerous books, and there was never any sense that the government/senate was capable of running the galaxy. of It made wish Thrawn had been able to impose his better empire over the galaxy. Or at least that he should have been able to significantly reconquer a large swash of the New Republic, which was not able to be retaken. Got annoyed at how simply incompetent that even our heroes turn out to be at times.


Why given events should we really care about the New Republic? Why should we root for it? Prefer the New Empire established by Thrawn then P to the New Republic any day.

Putting that in quotes actually made it mildly annoying to respond to. Not terribly so, but mildly. Anyway...

Spoiler

Show

It does collapse. The New Republic coouldn't survive the Yuuzhan Vong, and they reforged into the Galactic Alliance with Pellaeon at its head. Also, whatever you think about Pellaeon's dedication to the Empire, he was dedicated to a better Empire than actually existed. If someone is part of a bad group, and wants to make that group better, I find that admirable.

[russdm]

Maybe it is supposed to a treatise about how the New Republic is basically the UN in Star Wars? And that such a thing is flawed and extremely likely to fail repeatedly? Or if the Old Republic was supposed to the Roman Republic, maybe how restoring the Republic again simply doesn't work?

We learn rather quickly that dysfunctionality of an extreme degree is the standard for the Old Republic (Thanks to the stupid prequels) and naturally it would be employed in the New Republic. It feels too much like the nostalgia filter was put on by the Rebellion's leadership in regards to how utterly crappy the government had been, and that it would never have lasted without the Jedi Order propping up the government all of the D*** time.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe it is supposed to a treatise about how the New Republic is basically the UN in Star Wars? And that such a thing is flawed and extremely likely to fail repeatedly? Or if the Old Republic was supposed to the Roman Republic, maybe how restoring the Republic again simply doesn't work?

If you think the Roman Republic was in any way democratic you are dead wrong.

We learn rather quickly that dysfunctionality of an extreme degree is the standard for the Old Republic (Thanks to the stupid prequels) and naturally it would be employed in the New Republic. It feels too much like the nostalgia filter was put on by the Rebellion's leadership in regards to how utterly crappy the government had been, and that it would never have lasted without the Jedi Order propping up the government all of the D*** time.

The thing is, by all accounts the Empire is even worse and it doesn't have the excuse of the Sith working for a millenium to undermine it. Yet they succeed because the authors said so.

EDIT because I didn't see Peelee's post:

Given later events though, I really wished that the New Republic had collapsed. It was always practically on the verge of shattering apart in numerous books, and there was never any sense that the government/senate was capable of running the galaxy. of It made wish Thrawn had been able to impose his better empire over the galaxy. Or at least that he should have been able to significantly reconquer a large swash of the New Republic, which was not able to be retaken. Got annoyed at how simply incompetent that even our heroes turn out to be at times.


Why given events should we really care about the New Republic? Why should we root for it? Prefer the New Empire established by Thrawn then P to the New Republic any day.

Putting that in quotes actually made it mildly annoying to respond to. Not terribly so, but mildly. Anyway...

To be perfectly clear here. I didn't write that, I answered it from russdm's post where it used to be in quotes (by mistake I guess).

Spoiler

Show

It does collapse. The New Republic coouldn't survive the Yuuzhan Vong, and they reforged into the Galactic Alliance with Pellaeon at its head. Also, whatever you think about Pellaeon's dedication to the Empire, he was dedicated to a better Empire than actually existed. If someone is part of a bad group, and wants to make that group better, I find that admirable.

Spoiler: General EU post Thrawn Trilogy

Show

But just how much better are Pellaeon's Remnants from Palpatine's Glactic Empire? Didn't see many women or aliens on his side in the Hand of Thrawn. And whetever youthink of him as a character, his state is still a military junta with no separation of power, no term-limits, no elections, no representation, no check of any kind on the head of state I really wouldnt bet much on a free press or respect of human sapient rights either. I know I am skirting the line on the no-politics trule so let's me just say that I am strongly unconvinced by the "benevolent dictator" rhetoric.

[Peelee]

EDIT because I didn't see Peelee's post:

To be perfectly clear here. I didn't write that, I answered it from russdm's post where it used to be in quotes (by mistake I guess).

Spoiler

Show

But just how much better are Pellaeon's Remnants from Palpatine's Glactic Empire? Didn't see many women or aliens on his side in the Hand of Thrawn. And whetever youthink of him as a character, his state is still a military junta with no separation of power, no term-limits, no elections, no representation, no check of any kind on the head of state I really wouldnt bet much on a free press or respect of human sapient rights either. I know I am skirting the line on the no-politics trule so let's me just say that I am strongly unconvinced by the "benevolent dictator" rhetoric.

Sorry bout that!

Spoiler

Show

IIRC, OP knows Pellaeon survives, but I'm still trying to keep a lid on anything else about him past that book.

Anyway.,Pellaeon is the military leader by the Thrawn Duology, not the political leader. He still had to go to the Moffs to authorize his plan to formally end the war, and it does very much seem like the military and the ruling government can indeed check each other. We also don't know how long he had been Supreme Commander. We don't know what policies he had, or how long such policies may have been in place for (though we do know it couldn't have been for terribly long).

Also, I haven't said a word about Pellaeon being a benevolent dictator, because Pellaeon never once acted like a dictator, even when he was elected head of the Galactic Alliance. Both the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic peoples agreed that he would be an acceptable choice to head the government, and from all indications nobody was terribly displeased with how he handled the government. Pellaeon never committed any morally objectionable actions, and always presented himself as willing to listen to others. He was always shown to be a very reasonable person, unlike any dictator I know of, "benevolent" or no.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: General EU post Thrawn Trilogy

Show

IIRC, OP knows Pellaeon survives, but I'm still trying to keep a lid on anything else about him past that book.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

Anyway.,Pellaeon is the military leader by the Thrawn Duology, not the political leader. He still had to go to the Moffs to authorize his plan to formally end the war, and it does very much seem like the military and the ruling government can indeed check each other. We also don't know how long he had been Supreme Commander.

Didn't they oppose it? And didn't Pellaeonimply he was going to curb their influence at the end of the book? It has been awhile, I don't really remember.

Anyway that is still only two branches of the Executive power checking each other with the Legislastive and Judiciary folded into it. Besides who gets to name the Moffs if not the Supreme Commander?
We don't know what policies he had, or how long such policies may have been in place for (though we do know it couldn't have been for terribly long).

Also, I haven't said a word about Pellaeon being a benevolent dictator, because Pellaeon never once acted like a dictator, even when he was elected head of the Galactic Alliance. Both the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic peoples agreed that he would be an acceptable choice to head the government, and from all indications nobody was terribly displeased with how he handled the government. Pellaeon never committed any morally objectionable actions, and always presented himself as willing to listen to others. He was always shown to be a very reasonable person, unlike any dictator I know of, "benevolent" or no.

First off, when I said "benevolent dictator rhetoric" I didn't mean anything you, in particular, said it's just that "a good dictatorship/a dictatorship ruled by a good man is better than a democracy" is a position I have enountered several time from several places and it never sat well with me.
Second, dictator doesn't mean "never listen to advice", "impopular", "morally bankrupt" or even "rules by fear" it means "someone with absolute authority". When all is said and done if all the people that are not the head of state can do to influence state policies is give advice to the head of state who is free tolisten or not to them, you live in a dictatorship.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: General EU post Thrawn Trilogy

Show

Oh, yeah, that makes sense.


Didn't they oppose it? And didn't Pellaeonimply he was going to curb their influence at the end of the book? It has been awhile, I don't really remember.

Anyway that is still only two branches of the Executive power checking each other with the Legislastive and Judiciary folded into it. Besides who gets to name the Moffs if not the Supreme Commander?
We don't know what policies he had, or how long such policies may have been in place for (though we do know it couldn't have been for terribly long).


First off, when I said "benevolent dictator rhetoric" I didn't mean anything you, in particular, said it's just that "a good dictatorship/a dictatorship ruled by a good man is better than a democracy" is a position I have enountered several time from several places and it never sat well with me.
Second, dictator doesn't mean "never listen to advice", "impopular", "morally bankrupt" or even "rules by fear" it means "someone with absolute authority". When all is said and done if all the people that are not the head of state can do to influence state policies is give advice to the head of state who is free tolisten or not to them, you live in a dictatorship.

Spoiler

Show

The Moffs did oppose it initially, but after a few hours of the meeting capitulated to Pellaeon. I assume that he laid out his reasoning in detail and addressed all objections to the point that the Moffs all agreed that peace was the best solution. (Admittedly, I have the somewhat unfair benefit of re-reading that book at the moment)

I do agree that the governmental makeup of the Imperial Remnant was indeed presented as quite lopsided, but again, Pellaeon is only the military commander; what could he do about it that wouldn't be immediately proclaimed as a purely military takeover of the government? The Moffs certainly wouldn't want to give up their power, and they do control their own sector fleet. Pellaeon was the Supreme Commander, but when conflicting orders are given, that's a recipe for chaos, and it would likely be far more bloody than Pellaeon would tolerate.

As for the dictator part, again, Pellaeon is far from having absolute authority, even when he was leader of the Galactic Alliance. He had authority over the fleet, but even then a Moff with a con man could have pulled that from him for just long enough to matter.

[Mechalich]

Spoiler: General EU post Thrawn Trilogy

Show

But just how much better are Pellaeon's Remnants from Palpatine's Glactic Empire? Didn't see many women or aliens on his side in the Hand of Thrawn.

Spoiler

Show

There would have been women and alien imperials in Hand of Thrawn - it's just that pretty much everyone who shows up in the duology is high-ranked. Daala integrated the empire at gunpoint in Darksaber (the only good thing to happen in that travesty of a text). However, because the empire was shrinking at the time, and continued to shrink all the way through the YV War, no one was getting promoted. That means all the aliens and women were stuck in whatever low-level positions they had occupied for years. There's evidence of this in the duology - in that characters like Captain Nagol had been stuck at captain rank for over a decade.

[Sapphire Guard]

Think this fits in with what we know of the Rebellion and how they acted in the original trilogy to be reactive until carrying out the Endor attack where they were partially proactive.

In Episode 4, Tantive 4 was attacked and defended, The Death Star attacks and the Rebels send ships.

In Episode 5, Empire attacks Hoth

In Episode 6, Empire builds Death Star 2, Rebels martial for a strike at it.

In these books, Thrawn does various attacks, Rebels attack.

Have the rebels been ever proactive, actually rebelling? I know that in Rogue One, the rebels do be active.

w
They're not the Rebellion anymore, they're the Republic, with a Fleet that can match the Imperials in open combat. And I always assumed the bases we saw were just the headquarters and they had other branches.

You misunderstand me. Having studied their artowrk, previous battles and deduced how they generally thinks, Thrawn comes to the conclusion that it would be improbable for these people to go with the predictable route rather than try to throw a curveball at him. People have paterns. If you know someone well enough you can guess when they are going to bluff. Thrawn just figured out a way to guess someone's psychology based on their art tastes and cultural background which, while I doubt would be feasible in real-life, is probable enough for star wars. As I said before, this is not a particularly wild guess nor does he risk much by being wrong.

I could buy that Thrawn knows generally how they think from artwork. I could buy him thinking 'something's wrong here, we need to investigate further' or ' they're not going to do something this straightforward, they're going to do something else' and seeking information to confirm it.

I cannot buy 'they're going to attack this specific shipyard at this point in time and I am so confident of this based on this artwork from years before this war even started that I explicitly forbid my subordinates from doing any investigating to confirm my hunch.' There's at least one other CGT in the galaxy, and Coruscant is supplied for months as per Fey'lya. Bel Ibliss believes they don't need the CGT anyway, so he could well try to get Thrawn to commit forces defending CGTs and attack, say, Ukio instead. But Thrawn guesses the exact correct plan without any investigating.

Go on; finish that thought. How would Admiral Thrawn have figured it out? The Disney Star Wars have spoiled you if you think he pulled it out of his creative spot .

Given the relatively recent major war involving Clones and Jedi, it seems like this would either be common knowledge or impossible to discover. Unless Thrawn knows more about cloning than the Clonemasters and more about the Force than the Jedi.

would say that this is directly to how much the Rebels are overselling their attack. It's a little way too much, and so naturally Thrawn doesn't buy it. Maybe the rebels could have, or should have not been so overzealous in their preparations.

They're not. That's explicit in the text. It's an entirely convincing performance of an impending attack. And Delta source has been silenced by now.

PT Era republic isn't so bad, it took decades of scheming by a precognitive telepath with enormous political and Force power to bring it down, and he had plenty of trouble doing so. Absent his meddling, for instance, Qui Gon negotiates a peaceful settlement with the TF.

CH25:

Han looks around a corner at Stormtroopers at a guardpost, and lunges across the hallway to draw fire while Chewbacca takes them out. Luke cuts through a metal door and they take on some more, then run before security arrives.

They're going to have to blow up the cloning complex, which Han is happy about because after hauling explosives all this way he'd prefer to use the damn things. That might not be enough, though, but there's a self destruct in the Throne room.

...I hope the garrison commander could turn that off somehow before he imprisoned a Jedi up there. Mara and Luke head up to investigate, while Han seals the room and starts placing explosives. 3PO calls him over for the news that Joruus C'Baoth is imprisoned up there. Comms are down, so Han has to try chase them down himself.

Inside Bilbringi, the smugglers are on schedule when the ISD fleet arrives. They all assume Karrde has sold them out and prepare to go out in a blaze of glory, until Aves notices that the fleet is arrayed to defend against Rebels.

Mara and Luke are nearing the top of the base, where there are no guards because nothing of importance is up here. You don't think the SELF DESTRUCT system might be kind of important, Mara?

They stumble across two stormtrooper guards. Two is a bit underkill given the damage C'Baoth could dfo if he escapes, but they deal with them and enter the throne room, where the Emperor has a one of a kind galaxy map. They walk up to the throne... and Joruus C'Baoth spins it around to face them. Have to hand it to him, that's a great way to make an entrance.

CH26: C'Baoth has anticipated this meeting through his precognition, and says so. He provided a distraction so they could get into the mountain, because dying in the service of the Jedi is fitting. Luyke argues about the Jedi not being Masters of the Republic, and C'Baoth calls them failures.

"The Old Republic survived a thousand generation," Mara put in. "That doesn't sound like failure to me."

I want to frame this quote. Really wish someone said it in the ST, ideally in response to "The legacy of the Jedi is failure."

C'Baoth is not interested in such petty semantics. Mara holds him at gunpoint, and he follows her directions happily. Luke decides this is his last chance to save C'Baoth, and reveals that he (Joruus) is a clone. C'Baoth is at first shocked and then amused. He rebuilt the mind of Gen Covell and thinks he can control the Clones that have such similar minds.

Mara and Luke move to leave, and C'Baoth activates a remote detonator. The Force comes back. He must have detonated the ysalamiri cages. Wow, puppet Covell was right, security isn't great in this place.

C'Baoth snatches Mara's blaster and throws Force Lightning, hitting her with one blast. Luke blocks most of the rest. He tries to help her. C'Baoth is not pleased to be ignored and introduces a figure in a Jedi robe, who advances towards Luke. When he moves into the light, Luke's own face is revealed, much like the Darkside cave on Dagobah. But this time it's a Clone, Luuke Skywalker. The Emperor found his hand and lightsabre. How? A good question, for another time.

Luuke attacks, and I may get the the two confused in the remainder of this writeup. Luke flips away, and Luuke follows him, mostly more slowly. Luke can escape, but that means leaving Mara to face Luuke and C'Baoth alone.

In the Clone chamber, Lando notices the ysalamiri exploding. R2 has found the schematic for the column supporting the chamber. The Imperials notice and start firing stun blasts rather than damage the cloning facilities. Lando and Chewbacca have no such restrictions. The Imperials are probably going to try to flank them, forcing Lando to seal the doors and lock themselves in. Chewbacca can rig something up, but the explosion is likely to be too big to survive.

Wedge comes out of hyperspace close, but not at, the Bilbringi shipyards. Ackbar has time to identify the trap before the TIEs start flying.

High in the base, Han hears someone coming, and nearly shoots Leia. She and Karrde explain that the Force is back in action. The Noghri are downstairs, so it's just them to rescue Luke. He tries not to have flashbacks to Bespin and fails.

Okay, so C'Baoth had something up his sleeve after all, restoring the Force to him in time for the duel. I'm still a bit disappointed, though. These books have been building a C'Baoth/Thrawn confrontation since book one, it it seems unlikely to happen now, as they're on different sides of the galaxy. C'Baoth still might flip his killswitch/hack on the Clones, but that's not quite the confrontation I wanted. Oh well. I could still be wrong.

And Luke is duelling Luuke. Hmm. I suspect they may be equally matched.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Really neat cinematic of tge Luke/Luuke fight

Show

[Mechalich]

The Emperor found his hand and lightsabre. How? A good question, for another time.

Pretty sure the answer here is simply that the Emperor was neurotic and obsessive enough to expend an absurd amount of resources to trawl every blasted corner in Cloud City in order to find the hand. Ultimately, it's just sitting at the bottom of that column somewhere, a few hundred mouse droids could probably track it down in a day or so.

[Kish]

Okay, so C'Baoth had something up his sleeve after all, restoring the Force to him in time for the duel. I'm still a bit disappointed, though. These books have been building a C'Baoth/Thrawn confrontation since book one, it it seems unlikely to happen now, as they're on different sides of the galaxy. C'Baoth still might flip his killswitch/hack on the Clones, but that's not quite the confrontation I wanted. Oh well. I could still be wrong.

In light of the fact that Thrawn arranged for C'Baoth to lose his Force powers and C'Baoth anticipated him doing so and countered it, I think the confrontation's just happened.

(They aren't in the same area for it, but if they were that the one of them who doesn't have the Force would be dead now, and you mentioned a while ago knowing that Thrawn would be killed by someone who is not C'Baoth.)

[DataNinja]

Given the relatively recent major war involving Clones and Jedi, it seems like this would either be common knowledge or impossible to discover. Unless Thrawn knows more about cloning than the Clonemasters and more about the Force than the Jedi.

To be fair, at this point of writing EU stuff, there was literally nothing about the Clone Wars or anything. Certainly not that the clonemasters in question were working with the Jedi. So, I can imagine that it could be postulated that the clonemasters weren't really knowledgeable about the Force, and that the Jedi, though they may have figured it out, weren't exactly too keen on sharing their secret.

Certainly, I can imagine the Jedi keeping the knowledge of the Ysalamir repressed. It was known that the Jedi avoided Myrkr, but the reason why was probably not excessively common knowledge. Keep in mind that those who knew, Karrde and Thrawn, were amongst the most knowledgeable people with the largest sources to draw from. Most that dwelled there probably did so due to the sensor baffling properties of the planet instead.

So I don't find it far out of the question that the clonemasters, knowing about the force warping, were still unable to actually figure out a solution, lacking the knowledge of this one specific resource that the people in the highest echelons of power had reason to keep hidden.

[Mechalich]

To be fair, at this point of writing EU stuff, there was literally nothing about the Clone Wars or anything. Certainly not that the clonemasters in question were working with the Jedi. So, I can imagine that it could be postulated that the clonemasters weren't really knowledgeable about the Force, and that the Jedi, though they may have figured it out, weren't exactly too keen on sharing their secret.

Additionally, in-universe, the Clone Wars were thought to have been significantly further in the past than they ultimately turned out to be. Zahn, like pretty much everyone else, assumed that when Tarkin said 'surely he must be dead by now' regarding Obi-Wan, the implication was of old age. If Obi-Wan had been in his 80s during ANH, then the Empire had presumably existed for 40-50 years pre-ANH instead of eighteen. The ages of several characters in Zahn's writing, including Pellaeon and later Car'das, had to be retconned as a result and the backstories of many characters adjusted.