I just now realized that Miko has access to exactly one form of healing.

[hamishspence]

The spell doesn't ever say in any way that it ever gives you a creature's alignment. At all. It always discusses the aura.

Even if it did give you the creature's location, so does blindsense, and it just gets within a 5' square. We have no evidence that aura sense is any more precise than this.

People are probably operating on the assumption that it worked the way Detect Magic worked - especially in the novels:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm

if you cast Detect Magic - the target's items will glow, in a way that can be separated from the target themselves.

It works that way in OOTS too - with it being possible to tell, for example, that Roy's belt, sword, and armor specifically when on him, glows, but his head doesn't, when the spell is cast in-strip.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html

Pink line surrounds bits that are magic.

[Psyren]

Nope, that one is totally open-ended too. There are multiple good-aligned planes with multiple internal subdivisions, and Windstriker is quite possibly already in the service of some other paladin, which would limit his spare time.

Not "totally" open-ended. We can rule out the LG one.

(Arguably, we can rule out all the good ones, because she failed to achieve "redemption" rather than mere reinstatement.)

[Keltest]

Not "totally" open-ended. We can rule out the LG one.

(Arguably, we can rule out all the good ones, because she failed to achieve "redemption" rather than mere reinstatement.)

We can? Why's that?

[littlebum2002]

We can? Why's that?

He's making the common misunderstanding that, if you fall as a Paladin, you are no longer of the Good alignment.

[hamishspence]

it's not just that Miko fell, it's that Miko committed a spectacularly evil deed (murder, of someone not guilty of what she murdered him for) and didn't repent it.

Roy's Deva states that she would have "thrown his file into the True Neutral bin" over his abandoning of Elan, (which is seen as somewhat less evil than killing Shojo was) had he not demonstrated that he'd repented and "learned his lesson".

[Keltest]

it's not just that Miko fell, it's that Miko committed a spectacularly evil deed (murder, of someone not guilty of what she murdered him for) and didn't repent it.

Roy's Deva states that she would have "thrown his file into the True Neutral bin" over his abandoning of Elan, (which is seen as somewhat less evil than killing Shojo was) had he not demonstrated that he'd repented and "learned his lesson".

Roy's Deva is not Miko's Deva. Furthermore, Miko believed that she was slaying an evil saboteur who had infiltrated her city, which further complicates matters.

[hamishspence]

What she believed she was doing, doesn't matter all that much. Shojo isn't her only victim, either - Hinjo got massively cut up by her when trying to talk her into surrendering, too.

Plus, in War & XPs, we have that line from The Giant about how Miko

"pushed and pushed at the boundaries of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin, until finally she broke through"



In that context - the hypothesis that Miko was in fact Nongood at death, and judged nongood by her assessors in the afterlife, is not all that farfetched.

[Keltest]

What she believed she was doing, doesn't matter all that much. Shojo isn't her only victim, either - Hinjo got massively cut up by her when trying to talk her into surrendering, too.

Plus, in War & XPs, we have that line from The Giant about how Miko

"pushed and pushed at the boundaries of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin, until finally she broke through"



In that context - the hypothesis that Miko was in fact Nongood at death, and judged nongood by her assessors in the afterlife, is not all that farfetched.

Theres a rather large difference between "she's plausibly non-LG" and "We know for a fact she's non-LG"

[hamishspence]

While it's possible that Psyren jumped the gun a little when it comes to Miko's alignment/afterlife destination:

Not "totally" open-ended. We can rule out the LG one.

even those defending Miko as "Javert-analogue", and insisting that Javert was not a Villain, and not Evil,

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t#post16111241


couldn't convincingly make the case that he was any better than LN. And Miko is behind him on the "path to redemption" - having not accepted any wrong in her actions.

[Quebbster]

I'd be more willing to accept Miko no longer being Lawful than her no longer being Good. Appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner doesn't seem like Lawful behaviour. Neutral good with Lawful tendencies, I could see.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner doesn't seem like Lawful behaviour.

Errr... it is. As long as you are consistent, it is.

GW

[Fyraltari]

I'd be more willing to accept Miko no longer being Lawful than her no longer being Good. Appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner doesn't seem like Lawful behaviour. Neutral good with Lawful tendencies, I could see.

Strikes me more as Lawful Evil if you appoint yourself, and Lawful Neutralif it is part of a system (like Judge Dredd).

[alwaysbebatman]

Looking to yourself, rather than to the law or to your lawfully-selected superior, to determine the correct course of action is not less good, it is less lawful. LEs still believe in the importance of a hierarchy, they just devote themselves to a hierarchy which is malevolent.

[Keltest]

Looking to yourself, rather than to the law or to your lawfully-selected superior, to determine the correct course of action is not less good, it is less lawful. LEs still believe in the importance of a hierarchy, they just devote themselves to a hierarchy which is malevolent.

Its not even less lawful, necessarily. If you are the one making the laws, youre inherently relying on your own judgment because the law answers to you, for example.

[hamishspence]

The Giant on Law:

To think that Lawful always means "obeying the written law" is a gross misunderstanding of the D&D definition of the term.

For example, think of formal duels—the "pistols at dawn" kind. Such events are undoubtedly Lawful affairs—they have strict codes, elaborate rules, and concern themselves mostly with symbolic honor. All hallmarks of Lawful behavior when contrasted with, say, a drunken brawl. However, at the time Aaron Burr shot Hamilton, they were illegal in the United States. People who participated in such duels were abiding by a formal code of ethics and behavior that was in opposition to democratically passed law. Lawful behavior can be made illegal in a given jurisdiction, but that doesn't spontaneously change the nature of the act in a cosmological sense.

I've used this example before, but if a paladin walks into the orc's swamp to do battle, he is not suddenly bound to obey the Orc King's laws or lose his paladinhood. It is entirely possible to have a code that you believe supersedes the written law wherever you are and still be considered Lawful.

I've often said that a lot of confusion would have been avoided if they had simply called it Ordered instead of Lawful. "Ordered Good" leaves a lot less room for misinterpretation.

And on how some laws may be "higher" than others:

The actual laws in place are at best tangential to whether an action is lawful or chaotic. If Hinjo, for example, were to decree that paladins are allowed to take whatever they want from the AC refugees, actually doing so would still be a chaotic act, even if it were technically legal.

It would be Chaotic, because all those paladins have separately sworn oaths to the gods to protect the innocent. They would be breaking a Lawful vow because a mortal law said it was OK. That's Chaotic, or at least not Lawful. Hinjo cannot absolve the paladins of their word given freely with the stroke of a pen.

And on Miko-esque vigilantism:

the answer to your broader question is usually, "No, in a civilized society, you can't lawfully kill someone for a crime you can't prove." You can do it, and possibly still be Lawful, but doing so is not going to be a Lawful act. Yes, that sometimes means that villains get away with things, but the alternative is anarchy, with people just randomly killing other people for made-up crimes. In most Lawful societies, the job of meting out justice does not lay with the citizenry, but with the police (or the knights, or whatever). If you're Lawful, you take your case to the authorities and try to convince them to arrest the villain. Or, you realize that one Chaotic act won't change your whole alignment and kill them anyway. And then maybe you turn yourself in for murder.

[Psyren]

We can? Why's that?

He's making the common misunderstanding that, if you fall as a Paladin, you are no longer of the Good alignment.

No - we can rule out her destination as being the LG one because Soon explicitly said she's going to a different place than the rest of the dead paladins (and different even than her own mount.)

Note that I'm not saying she's going to Hell either. She could very well be getting shipped off to LN, in recognition for her tireless (if misguided) lifelong battle against evil forces, even if she applied that term more broadly than most sane people would.

[Keltest]

No - we can rule out her destination as being the LG one because Soon explicitly said she's going to a different place than the rest of the paladins (and different even than her own mount.)

As I said earlier in the thread to this exact claim, I think you are reading far more into Soon's statement than is actually there. They are escorting her to the same cloud plane Roy was judged on, because she declared herself to be (striving to be) Lawful Good, which means they get first crack at her review.

[Psyren]

As I said earlier in the thread to this exact claim, I think you are reading far more into Soon's statement than is actually there. They are escorting her to the same cloud plane Roy was judged on, because she declared herself to be (striving to be) Lawful Good, which means they get first crack at her review.

And I think you're not reading enough. That effectively WAS her review, by the founder of her entire order no less. Roy has no such reporting structure. The fact that Soon is capable of ushering her soul anywhere is proof enough of that.

[Keltest]

And I think you're not reading enough. That effectively WAS her review, by the founder of her entire order no less. Roy has no such reporting structure. The fact that Soon is capable of ushering her soul anywhere is proof enough of that.

Soon is not a Deva. That was not her review. And finally, ushering just means guiding, it doesn't mean he is deciding where she goes.

[Psyren]

Soon is not a Deva.

And? He clearly has far more information about her than someone who came into existence in the last few rounds should have. He is in a position to judge. "You have done none of this."

That was not her review. And finally, ushering just means guiding, it doesn't mean he is deciding where she goes.

You're going through several contortions to justify that "your destination as well" really meant "still the Celestial Realm, but with an unnamed pit-stop first." And ignoring literally everything he said about her "misdeeds" and "the gods turning away." It's a bit boggling to be honest.

[Keltest]

And? He clearly has far more information about her than someone who came into existence in the last few rounds should have. He is in a position to judge. "You have done none of this."



You're going through several contortions to justify that "your destination as well" really meant "still the Celestial Realm, but with an unnamed pit-stop first." And ignoring literally everything he said about her "misdeeds" and "the gods turning away." It's a bit boggling to be honest.

Whats mind boggling is the idea that the metaphysical forces of Law and Good would just shrug and say "yeah, this guy probably has it handled."

Roy tried to deviate from the procedure a tiny bit, and was shot down so hard. Why would Soon be allowed to act as her judge?

[Psyren]

Roy tried to deviate from the procedure a tiny bit, and was shot down so hard. Why would Soon be allowed to act as her judge?

I don't know. Why was he allowed to found an entire religious order in the first place? What I do know is that he very clearly judged her there.

"Does that mean I get to be a Paladin again?"
"No."
*cue lecture on redemption.*

Or if it makes you feel better, he was the mouthpiece of the judgment made higher above him, rather than the actual judge. Still doesn't change his status as an authoritative source either way.

[Keltest]

I don't know. Why was he allowed to found an entire religious order in the first place? What I do know is that he very clearly judged her there.

"Does that mean I get to be a Paladin again?"
"No."
*cue lecture on redemption.*

Or if it makes you feel better, he was the mouthpiece of the judgment made higher above him, rather than the actual judge. Still doesn't change his status as an authoritative source either way.

An authority on being a paladin? sure. An authority on where Miko's life journey has taken her? yeah, no.

[dps]

I don't know. Why was he allowed to found an entire religious order in the first place? What I do know is that he very clearly judged her there.

[B]"Does that mean I get to be a Paladin again?"[ /b]
"No."
*cue lecture on redemption.*

Exactly. He was responding the her specific question about being a Paladin again, not a question about her alignment. To repeat a point made before, no one is questioning that she fell from Paladin status. The question is, did her alignment also change? We don't know the answer to that one. Is it possible? Yes. Can we say for certain that it did? Absolutely not.

[Psyren]

An authority on being a paladin? sure. An authority on where Miko's life journey has taken her? yeah, no.

Believe what you want; I have no reason not to treat Ghost-Soon's voice as authoritative.

Exactly. He was responding the her specific question about being a Paladin again, not a question about her alignment. To repeat a point made before, no one is questioning that she fell from Paladin status. The question is, did her alignment also change? We don't know the answer to that one. Is it possible? Yes. Can we say for certain that it did? Absolutely not.

Sending her somewhere other than the afterlife all the other paladins are going to while still having the same alignment they do seems needlessly convoluted.

[alwaysbebatman]

I was making the same case earlier. It does seem like the clear implication of Soon's words.

But WoG contradicts the interpretation:

Originally Posted by The Giant
The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment,

Every soul goes to the afterlife that they THINK they deserve. And get tossed again if they were mistaken. Miko definitely went to the base of the mountain for judgment first.

(And promptly got tossed distinctly further South AND East, in my opinion. But I don't care to debate that opinion any further.)

[factotum]

It's worth noting that Soon died years ago and was presumably judged at that point--he hasn't done anything post-mortem to change his destination so he probably gets a free pass up the Mountain. Miko, having only just died (in fact, she was still alive when Soon was talking to her) doesn't get that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's worth noting that Soon died years ago and was presumably judged at that point--he hasn't done anything post-mortem to change his destination so he probably gets a free pass up the Mountain. Miko, having only just died (in fact, she was still alive when Soon was talking to her) doesn't get that.

Has he, though? His soul was trapped into the throne room, not unlike the soul-trapping effect of a vampire, except for its purpose. It is not impossible that he had never been to the judgement prior to the destruction of the jewel. By definition, ghosts haven't moved on, and the ghost paladins are just positive energy ghosts.

GW

[hamishspence]

Soon specifically says that it's their oath that binds them.

Just like Eugene's Oath bound him.

Which means that, a bit like Eugene and Roy - they might have gotten to the first stage of the review (and, unlike Eugene, brought it up at the start) and the deva might have said, like a deva did to Roy

"Let's review you now, so that should your oath is fulfilled, you'll be free to ascend- get all the bureaucratic stuff out of the way".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Soon specifically says that it's their oath that binds them.

Just like Eugene's Oath bound him.

Which means that, a bit like Eugene and Roy - they might have gotten to the first stage of the review (and, unlike Eugene, brought it up at the start) and the deva might have said, like a deva did to Roy

"Let's review you now, so that should your oath is fulfilled, you'll be free to ascend- get all the bureaucratic stuff out of the way".

Fair enough. So, depending on the nature of the oath and the magical enchantment that creates the martyr paladins, there are 3 possibilities:

1) They are "soul-bound" to the throne room, their souls never made it to the afterlife at all
2) They are "oath-bound" to the throne room, so they got their interview, but weren't allowed into heaven until their oath was discharged, so they went back to the throne room after the interview
3) They are not bound to the throne room, so they went through the interview, made it in, and they get booted out if and when the throne room needs defending.

Of the three, I find 3 the least plausible, precisely because we are told that once up the mountain, there is a strong incentive to make you forget and ignore what goes on in the material plane. It also takes a while to both go up and down the mountain, which doesn't really work when you are needed as an emergency defence force.

But I still think my own possibility, the first one, is the correct one, based on what we saw happening to the paladins that died to Xykon's bouncy ball: they immediately joined the martyr army. They did not go up to heaven, pass the interview and sent back. Now, it could have been that there was specifically a subclause in the magic for paladins killed in the attack to the throne room that was a short-cut to the usual process... but I find it more parsimonious that that's how it works for all of them: if you are a Azure City paladin and you die, your soul doesn't go to the LG plane, you go to the throne room and defend it.

Grey Wolf