New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!

[Peelee]

Do I really have to dig up every quote where someone mentions "the will of the Force" or similar?

"The will of the force" kind of sucks. Over a thousand years to restore balance, when it can apparently just bestow powers upon one when needed? I do agree with the "make assumptions that fit the narrative instead of assumptions that don't," but only when the narrative is internally consistent. This isn't.

[Psyren]

"The will of the force" kind of sucks. Over a thousand years to restore balance, when it can apparently just bestow powers upon one when needed? I do agree with the "make assumptions that fit the narrative instead of assumptions that don't," but only when the narrative is internally consistent. This isn't.

People misinterpret prophecy all the time. And the Force doesn't have to be omniscient here, just capable of guiding her to learn one power under duress (if we even need that specific theory, which we don't.)

[Dienekes]

I did read your opinion and dismissed it. So I guess we're at an impasse, yet again.

They why make the big claim that I missed what you wrote in bold to be aggressive and try to make the opponent look the fool when I actively addressed what you were talking about? Right there. In the post you quoted.

You're a smart guy, but you arguing tactic is to dismiss and belittle. It's annoying.

Anyway, glad we cleared up both of our opinions on the work.

That was fun. We should do this again next time we both somehow like a franchise but disagree on just about everything about it.

[Peelee]

People misinterpret prophecy all the time. And the Force doesn't have to be omniscient here, just capable of guiding her to learn one power under duress (if we even need that specific theory, which we don't.)

Except the prophecy was confirmed to have come true by the guy who wrote it. Also, without that theory, Rey learns things (like Force telekinesis) way too fast, according to other current canon sources.

Rey as of right now isn't very well written. It's salvageable. But your insistence that no it's perfect there's literally nothing wrong with her character is just fanboy wankism.

[Psyren]

That was fun. We should do this again next time we both somehow like a franchise but disagree on just about everything about it.

Weird how that keeps happening, isn't it?

Rey as of right now isn't very well written. It's salvageable. But your insistence that no it's perfect there's literally nothing wrong with her character is just fanboy wankism.

I never said she's "perfect." And I'm not the one resorting to personal attacks and namecalling. But I guess I'm the belittling one.

[pendell]

There's a difference between "perfect" and "Mary Sue" . I would say the character is neither of those things, neither especially well-written nor a Sue.

Being strong in the force in the SW universe essentially makes you superhuman. Anakin could race pods -- something beyond normal human capability -- build intelligent androids from spare parts in Watto's shop, outfly military starfighters and one-shot battleships, all at the age of 11. Compared to that, Ray is somewhat underpowered.

It's obvious she's a Skywalker and, because of this, the entire movie and indeed the universe revolve around her and her specialness.

That makes her a superhero but it does not -- yet -- make her a Sue. Anakin and Luke both had obvious, glaring, on-screen flaws. This has not yet fully been explored with Ray, but I've seen subtle indications of anger and the power going to her head to some extent.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Daimbert]

That makes her a superhero but it does not -- yet -- make her a Sue. Anakin and Luke both had obvious, glaring, on-screen flaws. This has not yet fully been explored with Ray, but I've seen subtle indications of anger and the power going to her head to some extent.

Anger isn't a flaw in the Star Wars universe, though, it's table stakes for having a Jedi that can be tempted towards the Dark Side. Luke's flaws weren't in anger, but in general in the things that he didn't know how to do or do well. He had to learn stuff to be able to do it well in most cases, and so we always got the impression that for anything that appeared between movies he had learned it. Anakin is also presented directly as having taught himself a lot of those things and when he didn't was called out for it. And a lot of his successes -- like with the Trade Federation battleship and battle -- were seen as either luck or Force-guided; he wasn't presented as being that competent or doing that deliberately himself.

[napoleon_in_rag]

A more important question is how Tag and Bink fit into the new movie.

[Mordar]

Also, Heir to the Jedi and Rebels both establish the difficulty of learning at least one Force power - telekinesis - as being incredibly difficult, and both Luke and Ezra had direct tutelage from actual, trained Jedi. Both have markedly difficult time making even the smallest object move, unfettered. Rey Force grabs a lightsaber that Ben was also trying to Force grab. She objectively learns Force powers too fast. Unless any reason for this is explicitly given, it's safe to chalk it up to bad writing.

Did Luke have training on the Force-pull before he does it in Empire?

Yes it was two-way. Something no other mind-trick in the movies had any hint at being. In a way to get her to one-up the villain. Because the hero can never just be powerless and still have their dignity. They have to actually make the villain look pathetic in the process.

Rey gets put in the same situation. She makes not-Vader look like a bitch. Never really gets her morals tested beside some halfhearted attempt at saying he can teach her. And ultimately, by your interpretation of events gets better super powers from the event.

I think it is fairly important to point out that this wasn't the "Jedi mind trick" we've ever seen before and that it wasn't supposed to be one we've ever seen before. It wasn't pushing a weak mind to do hear something or forget you were here or suggest a minor course of action. It was much more than that. Sure, it may just be "newer movies so we have to do newer things", but consider this - Vader couldn't just reach into Leia and rip out the Yavin location. He tried to use the interrobot and traditional questioning/torture. Why wouldn't Palpatine or Vader have known the technique to just brute-force into the person and rip out the knowledge you want? Equal chance, I'd say, that it just wasn't in their "school" of powers and it is in Snoke's, or because there is risk of drifting with Kaiju trying to go directly into someone's mind...because it shares things both ways. Regardless, I still think the Daniel Craig scene was funny, but unnecessary and leaves us with this issue. The Force Pull on the lightsaber to redirect it to Rey's hand has a lot more storyline reasoning and fits much better for an early display of power.

The mind meld wasn't just to provide Rey the chance to be tough...it also provided a way for us to learn more about Kylo Ren. But again, could have been managed without the Daniel Craig bit.

I do agree that there are some issues that they are dancing around with Hero Rey. I do hope there's a reason for the setup and kind of hope it is for the "fall before redemption" kind of story, but not quite sure. I don't necessarily mean "fall to the Dark Side" though...more have an abject failure and then have to come back from defeat.

- M

[Kyberwulf]

First off, I am calling Ray a Mary Sue, especially after seeing the Slack jawed eyes wide as saucers look on Luke's face as he exclaims.... Dawwww Your so super special!.....

I don't hate Rey though. I liked Daisy and more or less the attempt at the character of Rey. Why I consider her a Mary Sue isn't so much because of the author insert part of the troupe. It's more a less the Idea that it's a political insert. The problems that I have, have been discussed already.

The fact that she has powers that she hasn't earned or hasn't really been explained.

The whole part of trying to use Luke as a Mary sue... falls apart. He isn't the bestest and everyone loves him the moment they meet him. The fact that you are arguing that the reasons that are given, to explain his "powers" undercuts your arguing Mary... er I mean Rey isn't a Mary Sue. There are NO reasons at all given to explain how she is so good at anything. You can argue anything that She does, she just knows. At least we get some explanation for Luke's abilities, as lame as they can be. As other points out, he doesn't succeed at anything really. He is the reason a lot of people get put in a position, but he is almost always bailed out by other characters.

Rey is good with scavenging, sure. I can buy that. That doesn't not equal any degree of expertise in another field. Just because I am trained in emt, does not mean I can do brain surgery. Just because she finds things in the desert, and can asses that, Yeah these seem to be good. Doesn't mean she can automatically "Know" how someone jury rigged a part of a ship that she apparently isn't allowed access. We are given even less of the explanation of "I wanted to join my pilot friends to do pilot stuff, because I can pilot good"... What are we given. I can do loopy loops around Military trained pilots with the explanation of " I didn't know I could do that too." Also, I have been bullied alot growing up. . Sad I know. That doesn't mean I can fight off 3 beings obviously bigger and stronger then me with a stick. Again, we aren't given any information about where she learned to fight. Same thing with the Lightsaber. And the force powers. everything is given to her, with no explanation. The only reason she has people in the movie, is so she can outshine them. I wish she was given places, like Luke, where she actually needed other character's help in order to survive. The problems I think will plague Lara in the new movie coming out.

The reason I call her a Mary Sue, is more or less, the term fits. Maybe not exactly, but accurate enough to be true. I am not sexist about it. I don't respect her for that reason I don't respect other characters like her that or male. The reason I use the Label Mary sue, is because it was created. There really aren't that many names for male characters, like this, other then boring, asinine, or derivative. She's not a well written character. She is an insert for "female power", which ironically is the whole reason other movies with all powerful male characters are lambasted. Such as most action movies from the 80s. The problem with her is that, like the Vikings every superbowl chance, dropped the ball. Instead of being a cool character that everyone could root for. They tried to make her the Female messiah. The female character that if you don't like you hate women. I went into this knowing that it was going to be bad.... Hoping that it would be good.

ON the subject of Anakin.

He isn't a Mary Sue. Or whatever the male equivalent of that term. He is supposed to be a Tragic character. So his given power is intentional. He is suppose to flaunt that power and ultimately waste that potential. Besides that. He isn't perfect at everything he does. Which is the point of a Mary Sue. Sure he can pilot things well. However, being good at it, doesn't mean he always succeeds. Heck, he only ever won one pod race. I am not sure if that was all his doing, or as a theory I watched speculates that Qui gon is using the force to help him. He makes a driod. Yet, we don't really know the extent of how difficult it is to build a droid. IN our world, sure... It seems impossible. Yet in his world, that could be the same as building a Pc from parts a kid's dads leaves laying around. Which by the way, watto seems caring enough to have taught some of the things he could have know to him. Also, he doesn't really do much in Episode 1. If you really look at it. He is found, does one race that, let's face it if he had lost wouldn't be much of a reason to think he is special. Tags along to the city planet, then is dragged to another planet where he is put into a plane. Which he pilots, if I remember correctly, he is taught some of the basics by the one dude on his way to the city planet, and the fact that it's controls are like the Podracer he drove before. He also manages to survive against droids that seem really inept at their jobs. I mean, the whole sthick of the droids is that they aren't programmed well. Just massively produced to be cannon fodder. Besides, we don't know how much of the flying R2 is really doing.

That's another thing that is wrong with Ray. With both Anakin and Luke, from the first movies since that is all we are given to go off with Ray, are given a life outside of the beginning of the movies. With Anakin that is a sad thing. That even a life of a slave, he is given more of a reason to exist and have some lame attempt at reasons for his being competent at what he does.

[Jayngfet]

Did Luke have training on the Force-pull before he does it in Empire?

The current iteration of that story makes it clear that he had to put in a lot of work to do anything resembling it. It took him days to weeks of effort just to move anything even a few inches. This was after robbing some jedi graves and hearing from people who knew more about jedi as a group than he did. It had to be this entire big story for him to get to that point. Even then on top of that he had Obi-Wans journal and accounts of him and Yoda doing things with the force to go off of, and by that point had seen other people use the force to do the same thing as well, depending on the timeline, which is a bit muggy there thanks to Disney farming out that first year post yavin for nostalgiabux too many times.

When Anakin does it in the prequels for the first time onscreen, he does it smoothly and without much effort, but he makes it clear that's meant to be an example of why he deserves to be a jedi knight. That ability is something the jedi evidently take very seriously.

When Ezra manages it, it takes him several months of training. Dhara Leonis managed as well, but she was tortured and conditioned by the empire for like a year to get to that point.

Of all the force users in the new canon galaxy, I think the only one who could do it without direct training or long hours of practice was Hedala Fardi, and it was justified as being nascent force sensitives sometimes picking up very limited abilities in one or two limited areas of using the force. Which doesn't apply to Rey since given how force abilities are traditionally divided up, she actually excels in all of them with no training. Which is probably why the direction they're going in is best, but it does in fact kind of nullify every other force prodigy to say that no, this one is super duper the best for real this time.

[The Aboleth]

I'm looking forward to The Last Jedi, but as others have stated I hope it doesn't retread old concepts TOO much to become "Empire Strikes Back II." The Force Awakens was good, and to a certain degree I think retreading A New Hope was necessary to "reset" the foundation of the franchise, but if that's the path they take from here on out I'll be severely disappointed.

Personally, I felt like Rogue One was MUCH better than The Force Awakens and honestly one of the best Star Wars films to date. I know Empire Strikes Back is the consensus favorite, but it's nowhere near mine--the first 1/3 (on Hoth) and the last 1/3 (conflict on Cloud City, especially Luke's fight with Vader) are brilliant, but the middle 1/3 where the group is split up really drags on and brings the rest of the movie down for me.

[lunaticfringe]

Did Luke have training on the Force-pull before he does it in Empire?
- M

It's best not to dwell on this, but in universe years happen between Death Star 'splosions. A lot of stuff happens we don't see including Yoda-Luke training montages. My biggest gripe with Empire is time Wonkiness between what's happening with the Falcon and what is happening on Dagobah. Post movie plot hole fixes? Probably, this be Star Wars.

I view the Force as Plot Device. If a force user needs to get out of a bind, they will have a force power that gets them out of a bind.

Did I think Rey's Power Use was hacky and poorly handled? Oh Hell Yeah. Is she a strong candidate for Mary Sue Status? Yup. But the trilogy ain't over yet so it's too soon for me to call it.

[Peelee]

I never said she's "perfect." And I'm not the one resorting to personal attacks and namecalling. But I guess I'm the belittling one.

You have yet to allow any criticism of her. If you feel there is criticism, I'd love to hear it. Also, I have yet to pull out any personal attacks or name calling. I've characterized your argument (as I did in the first sentence here as well) as invarying. If I have done any name-calling or ad hominems, feel free to quote the offending lines. If not, please stop making up things so you look justified.

Did Luke have training on the Force-pull before he does it in Empire?

As previously stated, he starts to learn telekinesis in Heir to the Jedi, with great difficulty. Same for Ezra in Rebels. So we have a canon book and a TV show that demonstrate that it is a difficult power to learn.

TL;DR - yes.

[The Aboleth]

I view the Force as Plot Device. If a force user needs to get out of a bind, they will have a force power that gets them out of a bind.

Did I think Rey's Power Use was hacky and poorly handled? Oh Hell Yeah. Is she a strong candidate for Mary Sue Status? Yup. But the trilogy ain't over yet so it's too soon for me to call it.

Potential counter-argument to the whole Mary Sue-ness of Rey: Perhaps having an inherent amount of strength in the Force can be akin to having, like, an inherent sense of speed or inherent physical strength?

For example, plenty of people are inherently super fast without any formal training to hone their speed or endurance. Let's say there's someone out there who possesses this inherent speed, but never really runs at all (for whatever reason you want to come up with). Since they never run, they're not aware they're inherently super fast.

Now, let's say one day they decide to run--for the sake of this argument, let's say they're being chased by something dangerous. As they're running, they realize that "Holy crap, I'm super fast!" They escape from the danger with their speed despite never having run before, because they've always possessed inherent speed--they just didn't realize it up until that point in their life.

Now, could this person immediately run a mile in under 4 minutes (something that's extremely difficult to do even for experienced runners)? I'd highly doubt it. But perhaps with some training and mentorship by practiced runners, their inherent speed would have them break that 4-minute mile goal in a relatively short period of time.

Perhaps a similar thing is going on with Rey--she's inherently strong in the Force, but hasn't had much of a reason to use it until the events of The Force Awakens occur. Then suddenly, she realizes "Holy crap, I'm super strong in the Force!" and manages to escape danger in a way that people without that inherent Force-strength would be able to do.* Do I expect her to be Force-leaping up tall building or Force-pulling a mountain on top of Kylo Ren's head? Not yet, no--but with some training by an experienced Jedi (Luke, obviously) then maybe she'll be able to do those things at some point.

*It's important to note, too, that Kylo Ren was badly injured by Chewie's crossbow-bolt thing prior to Rey's confrontation with him. I'd expect an uninjured Kylo Ren to wipe the floor with Rey, but given the circumstances of the injury coupled with being outnumbered it's not SUPER weird to me that Rey beat him.

[Psyren]

You have yet to allow any criticism of her. If you feel there is criticism, I'd love to hear it.

I did point out some of her flaws. Here, I'll remind you:

"It worked out okay in the end" does not stop it from being negative initially. He successfully tricked her, because she acts (and says out loud what she's thinking) without considering things all the way through first.

She absolutely suffers a negative outcome, by getting suckered into thinking Finn is with the resistance when he wasn't. Something she might have discovered by tailing or talking to him more calmly, rather than flying off the handle. She herself gives him the idea to lie.

Also, I have yet to pull out any personal attacks or name calling.

So you meant "fanboy" and "wank" as compliments then? Don't tell me it's raining.

[Tyndmyr]

After some consideration, I say The First Order is the MS of TFA...achieving limitless power without effort, accomplished solely by author fiat. And worse yet, in a way that makes everyone not-First Order look like complete fools.

- M

This is also entirely fair.

Granted, there is also the expectation that Rey will, over the course of three movies, roundly defeat the First Order. So, even though the First Order definitely does not deserve the success it is displayed to have, and it's a bit obnoxious, it is generally expected that they'll lose in the end. This doesn't save them from being poorly written entirely, but it somewhat lessens the Mary Sue status.

It's Episode 4, where the empire is MORE nazi-ish, the Skywalker is more skywalkery, the evil jedi in black is even more evul, and it has a bigger death star. They basically just turned up the dial on everything for the remake. Rey's got some problems, but they're not specific to her. It's simply quite noticeable because, being the protagonist, she has a lot of screen time. But, if you stop and think about it, the same "that doesn't really seem logical" definitely applies to the First Order as well.

[Chen]

As previously stated, he starts to learn telekinesis in Heir to the Jedi, with great difficulty. Same for Ezra in Rebels. So we have a canon book and a TV show that demonstrate that it is a difficult power to learn.

TL;DR - yes.

To be fair though Heir to the Jedi can easily be considered a Retcon seeing as it came out what, 35 years after ESB. Luke being able to pull the lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave has no real good explanation when you're watching the movies. Aside Vader choking people I don't think any telekinesis had even been shown up to that point.

[Rodin]

This is also entirely fair.

Granted, there is also the expectation that Rey will, over the course of three movies, roundly defeat the First Order. So, even though the First Order definitely does not deserve the success it is displayed to have, and it's a bit obnoxious, it is generally expected that they'll lose in the end. This doesn't save them from being poorly written entirely, but it somewhat lessens the Mary Sue status.

It's Episode 4, where the empire is MORE nazi-ish, the Skywalker is more skywalkery, the evil jedi in black is even more evul, and it has a bigger death star. They basically just turned up the dial on everything for the remake. Rey's got some problems, but they're not specific to her. It's simply quite noticeable because, being the protagonist, she has a lot of screen time. But, if you stop and think about it, the same "that doesn't really seem logical" definitely applies to the First Order as well.

This post finally clears up my thoughts about TFA. The design of the movie makes a lot of sense when looked at from the lens of kick-starting a failing franchise.

- They need the Empire back, so the First Order just randomly exists.

- They need to be scarier than the Empire was, so they blow up multiple planets instead of just one.

- They need a Death Star, but they've done that twice already. So, Super Death Star!

- They need to have all the existing Force powers in play before introducing new ones, hence Rey's accelerated learning of them.

- They need a lightsaber battle with no Jedi or Sith around - hence Finn and Rey suddenly being proficient enough to fight Ren, and him needing to be wounded to allow that fight to happen.

- They need Han Solo back for the trailers, so they twist Harrison Ford's arm to get him to show up for it and then kill him off at Ford's request.

------

The movie makes a lot more sense to me now. What they want is cool new Jedi stuff, a power level higher than Vader vs Luke (or Palpatine vs. Yoda). Except 3 of those characters are dead, and Mark Hamill is too old to play the lead. So, rush Rey through all the basics and get her to a position to be the action heroine they want. The rest of the ANH copying is basically filler for getting all the characters where they want them to be for the next two movies.

The result is...inelegant. However, it was still a lot of fun, and vastly superior to the prequels. I can forgive them for that.

It does raise the stakes on Last Jedi. With the success of both TFA and Rogue One, they now have no excuse for simply sticking to paint-by-numbers copying of the original trilogy. The setup is done - now I want to see some actual storytelling.

[Hopeless]

It works better if they reveal she WAS trained but her master died on Jakku but not before insuring she was able to survive by herself and included a compulsion to wait for someone to come back for her that was nullified when Finn came back to rescue her.

Finn was the one who awakened, Rey popping up shook Kylo & Snoke out of realising that.

Quite like the idea of her being Ben's long thought dead kid sister who was thought killed when the Falcon was stolen but if the above is true and she was trained then we're looking at either Ezra's daughter and/or she was taught by Kanan.

Both are longshots but not as long as her being Luke's daughter still it's up to Disney to decide and they did mess up the story in TFA so who knows?

[Jayngfet]

It's best not to dwell on this, but in universe years happen between Death Star 'splosions. A lot of stuff happens we don't see including Yoda-Luke training montages. My biggest gripe with Empire is time Wonkiness between what's happening with the Falcon and what is happening on Dagobah. Post movie plot hole fixes? Probably, this be Star Wars.

I view the Force as Plot Device. If a force user needs to get out of a bind, they will have a force power that gets them out of a bind.

Did I think Rey's Power Use was hacky and poorly handled? Oh Hell Yeah. Is she a strong candidate for Mary Sue Status? Yup. But the trilogy ain't over yet so it's too soon for me to call it.

I think that Pablo Hidalgo once vaguely handwaved the Dagobah-Bespin issue by saying something about the force and time flowing or something. So what was a couple of days to everyone else was like months to Luke. It'd have to be in that range since the montage also includes a bunch of endurance and strength training and you can't just build muscles in a couple of days like that while also doing other stuff.

[Peelee]

I did point out some of her flaws. Here, I'll remind you:







So you meant "fanboy" and "wank" as compliments then? Don't tell me it's raining.

A.) Your flaws are that she's too trusting and naive. That's been covered already. I will grant that you do admit she is flawed, even if the only flaws you allow are the cutesy "she's just too good of a person" kind.

Second, again, I was calling out your argument, not you. Personal attack means I'm directly attacking you. I was attacking your argument. Unless you are so married to the idea of being right above all else that you consider an attack on your argument an attack on you personally, of course.

To be fair though Heir to the Jedi can easily be considered a Retcon seeing as it came out what, 35 years after ESB. Luke being able to pull the lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave has no real good explanation when you're watching the movies. Aside Vader choking people I don't think any telekinesis had even been shown up to that point.

In ANH, he learns the Force, learns to let it mildly control his actions with the remote, and then use that same power at the end. Nothing he started the film unaware of is used without training being shown first.

In ESB, Luke Force grabs the saber. This showcases that between the movies (months to years of movie time), he's gotten more powerful. He uses other Force abilities in the fuel with Vader, but that's after he received an unspecified amount of training from a Jedi Master. So again, we can reasonably infer from the material presented that he learned these abilities. RotJ again has new powers at the start to imply more learning during the time between films. No powers are ever used without them either being shown in The beginning of the movie or without having a training beforehand.

Rey, however, learns the the Force is not fictional and starts using abilities without any indication that she has been trained, or has practiced such things. They are shown only at the end, where no reasonable inferences can be made that she could perform them to start with in the time we do not see. She just *gets* the power.

If Rey had done any training whatsoever, even a vague scene not showing any specific powers being used to preserve the surprise for later, I wouldn't be arguing this. It would be fine. But this didn't happen. She only knows legends and stories in the beginning, discovers she has the potential, and immediately starts using these powers.

Even regardless of that, Heir to the Jedi and Rebels both precede the release of TFA, so calling either one a retcon with respect to discussion about TFA is fallacious. If we were arguing Eps 1-6, that would be a good argument. 7 forward, not so much.

[lunaticfringe]

I think that Pablo Hidalgo once vaguely handwaved the Dagobah-Bespin issue by saying something about the force and time flowing or something. So what was a couple of days to everyone else was like months to Luke. It'd have to be in that range since the montage also includes a bunch of endurance and strength training and you can't just build muscles in a couple of days like that while also doing other stuff.

Yeah if want some text book Lucas Fanboy Wankism look to the Lucasfilms Story Group. I can forgive the weirdness of Empire because hey it's a movie and you gotta keep it rolling & hit key plot points. When they start pulling out weird stuff like Time Dialation to explain Movie Time Weirdness ,that is a problem throughout the Medium, I get really worried/repulsed/turned off.

[The Aboleth]

Rey, however, learns the the Force is not fictional and starts using abilities without any indication that she has been trained, or has practiced such things. They are shown only at the end, where no reasonable inferences can be made that she could perform them to start with in the time we do not see. She just *gets* the power.

If Rey had done any training whatsoever, even a vague scene not showing any specific powers being used to preserve the surprise for later, I wouldn't be arguing this. It would be fine. But this didn't happen. She only knows legends and stories in the beginning, discovers she has the potential, and immediately starts using these powers.

This is why, as I noted in my previous post, I choose to view her use of the Force similar to the way that someone with inherent speed might not realize they had it up until they started running; once they start running, they realize that they're much faster than most people just because they're born with that inherent speed. If we choose to view Force sensitivity/strength in a similar manner, I think it cleans up the lack of training thing a little bit in TFA; Rey doesn't ever think to use the Force for most of her life because she thinks it's a fairy tale, but once she learns its not she "starts running" and discovers that she can use the Force in a way most can't because she's got that inherent Force sensitivity.

It's not like she was Force-choking 100 people at once--she used the Force to manipulate the actions of the Daniel Craig Stormtrooper, and used it again to pull the lightsaber to her. These are difficult techniques to use, yes, but not so much that I'm screaming "Mary SUUUUUUUUE!!!" at it because I think it's easily explained as "She's super Force sensitive, like some people are just born being super fast."

Plus--and again, I can't stress this enough--I really feel like a HUGE reason she was able to defeat Kylo Ren was because he was badly injured by Chewie's Crossbow Bolt of Doom. That thing wrecked a whole heap of destruction earlier in the movie--the fact Kylo was standing AT ALL is a testament to how much of his Force powers were spent just keeping him upright.

That being said: All theories wrong or your money back!

[Psyren]

A.) Your flaws are that she's too trusting and naive. That's been covered already.

I think she's hotheaded and jumps to conclusions, not that she's trusting and naive.

Second, again, I was calling out your argument, not you.

If I tell you your argument is one an idiot or troll would make, that would be an attack on you. "Fanboy wankism" is just as passive-aggressive, and you keep doubling down.

[Cikomyr]

This is why, as I noted in my previous post, I choose to view her use of the Force similar to the way that someone with inherent speed might not realize they had it up until they started running; once they start running, they realize that they're much faster than most people just because they're born with that inherent speed. If we choose to view Force sensitivity/strength in a similar manner, I think it cleans up the lack of training thing a little bit in TFA; Rey doesn't ever think to use the Force for most of her life because she thinks it's a fairy tale, but once she learns its not she "starts running" and discovers that she can use the Force in a way most can't because she's got that inherent Force sensitivity.

It's not like she was Force-choking 100 people at once--she used the Force to manipulate the actions of the Daniel Craig Stormtrooper, and used it again to pull the lightsaber to her. These are difficult techniques to use, yes, but not so much that I'm screaming "Mary SUUUUUUUUE!!!" at it because I think it's easily explained as "She's super Force sensitive, like some people are just born being super fast."

Plus--and again, I can't stress this enough--I really feel like a HUGE reason she was able to defeat Kylo Ren was because he was badly injured by Chewie's Crossbow Bolt of Doom. That thing wrecked a whole heap of destruction earlier in the movie--the fact Kylo was standing AT ALL is a testament to how much of his Force powers were spent just keeping him upright.

That being said: All theories wrong or your money back!

Yhea, I can accept those as well..

[Legato Endless]

And as for Rogue Squadron, part of that was his ability and part of that was his notoriety as being the pilot who blew up the Death Star. Wedge is also a a major part of that squadron, and in the EU takes it over based on both his skill and his fame as a pilot.

You mean like anyone else who performs a great feat and is then rewarded for it? That's not really proof of anything against Luke, unless you're making the argument he wasn't worthy of being in that group of 'flying aces', which is extremely tenuous as he successfully led them through various missions up until Hoth. If your argument is different, then feel free to correct, but Luke as the odd man out, and yet somehow remaining in there for years is a rather absurd explanation which requires a lot more rational than simply assuming he was worthy of entry in that elite cadre immediately following Yavin. Wedge also does not take over for Luke until 3 years of successful leadership following Hoth. Sure, Wedge is the better pilot, that's kind of his claim to glory as maybe the best of his era, but that's neither here nor there.

If I tell you your argument is one an idiot or troll would make, that would be an attack on you. "Fanboy wankism" is just as passive-aggressive, and you keep doubling down.

I second this. There's a world of difference between telling someone their argument is ludicrous and telling them they're engaging in fanboy whatever-ism. The former is perfectly fine, the latter is definitely an accusation of character and shouldn't be a part of a civil discussion.

[Peelee]

This is why, as I noted in my previous post, I choose to view her use of the Force similar to the way that someone with inherent speed might not realize they had it up until they started running; once they start running, they realize that they're much faster than most people just because they're born with that inherent speed. If we choose to view Force sensitivity/strength in a similar manner, I think it cleans up the lack of training thing a little bit in TFA; Rey doesn't ever think to use the Force for most of her life because she thinks it's a fairy tale, but once she learns its not she "starts running" and discovers that she can use the Force in a way most can't because she's got that inherent Force sensitivity.

It's not like she was Force-choking 100 people at once--she used the Force to manipulate the actions of the Daniel Craig Stormtrooper, and used it again to pull the lightsaber to her. These are difficult techniques to use, yes, but not so much that I'm screaming "Mary SUUUUUUUUE!!!" at it because I think it's easily explained as "She's super Force sensitive, like some people are just born being super fast."

Plus--and again, I can't stress this enough--I really feel like a HUGE reason she was able to defeat Kylo Ren was because he was badly injured by Chewie's Crossbow Bolt of Doom. That thing wrecked a whole heap of destruction earlier in the movie--the fact Kylo was standing AT ALL is a testament to how much of his Force powers were spent just keeping him upright.

That being said: All theories wrong or your money back!

The problem with the unknown speed analogy is that in a story it needs to be referenced or foreshadowed. So far the only runners we've seen have practiced running before, or introduced as able to run. Learning one can run out of nowhere near the end a movie is not good writing.

It's also worth noting that my main objection is to the Force grab. The fight, as you point out, is against a grievously injured person. The bowcaster is shown as incredibly powerful, even through multiple people in the air off a single bolt. That's fine. Same for the Force Persuade (though that one is still much shakier, and I think it's more justification after the fact due to bad writing, but I'll still let it fly). But the Force grab comes out of nowhere. And even then, she's fighting against Ben doing it as well. Sure, he's still injured, but his pull should still make it more difficult. The Lion chasing the person who discovers they can run is doing it on a hurdles track, to try to fit the analogy.

QUOTE=Psyren;22471659]If I tell you your argument is one an idiot or troll would make, that would be an attack on you. "Fanboy wankism" is just as passive-aggressive, and you keep doubling down.[/QUOTE]

I second this. There's a world of difference between telling someone their argument is ludicrous and telling them they're engaging in fanboy whatever-ism. The former is perfectly fine, the latter is definitely an accusation of character and shouldn't be a part of a civil discussion.

I'll concede that I'm wrong then. I'm sorry.

[Daimbert]

You mean like anyone else who performs a great feat and is then rewarded for it? That's not really proof of anything against Luke, unless you're making the argument he wasn't worthy of being in that group of 'flying aces', which is extremely tenuous as he successfully led them through various missions up until Hoth. If your argument is different, then feel free to correct, but Luke as the odd man out, and yet somehow remaining in there for years is a rather absurd explanation which requires a lot more rational than simply assuming he was worthy of entry in that elite cadre immediately following Yavin. Wedge also does not take over for Luke until 3 years of successful leadership following Hoth. Sure, Wedge is the better pilot, that's kind of his claim to glory as maybe the best of his era, but that's neither here nor there.

My argument is mostly against the idea that Luke being made leader of Rogue Squadron is an indication/example that his piloting ability at the Death Star and even after was just that much better than everyone else's. Luke is one of two survivors of Red Squadron that was the inspiration for that elite squadron, and he's the one who actually blew up the Death Star. That notoriety would get him the nod over anyone new joining and over Wedge, who is essentially the second in command, at least in part because of the notoriety of surviving the Death Star run. Both are elite pilots, but aren't necessarily head and shoulders over everyone else, although as Luke hones his Jed abilities he likely would start to stand out at that level.

Luke, even at the first battle, is a very good pilot. But except for a few cases where he is implied to be using the Force, he isn't that much better than anyone else (Wedge's head-to-head against the TIE chasing Luke, for example, is a better move than what Luke did to help Biggs). Thus, by the time of Rogue Squadron, both he, Wedge and likely the others are all elite pilots. Luke gets the nod for being the guy who blew up the Death Star.

[JoshL]

Plus--and again, I can't stress this enough--I really feel like a HUGE reason she was able to defeat Kylo Ren was because he was badly injured by Chewie's Crossbow Bolt of Doom. That thing wrecked a whole heap of destruction earlier in the movie--the fact Kylo was standing AT ALL is a testament to how much of his Force powers were spent just keeping him upright.

That duel is pretty interesting, character-wise. Kylo is injured. Kylo is also not trying to kill Rey (he's trying to get her to join him). Even still he is controlling every aspect of the fight. He has her and keeps her right where he wants her, from the moment she turns on the lightsaber. Until he tries to talk to her. He reminds her of the force, she centers herself and surges. Not even well, Kylo is thrown off balance by her act of calming herself. From that point on, Rey wins, but she's not in control of the fight; she's just going all out, and Kylo is stumbling overhimself because he played a mind-game and lost. I would say (and just having watched it a couple times last week) she didn't defeat him as much as surprised him, until the Canyon of Convenience opened up, giving Kylo a reprieve.

To fanwank a bit, it's also possible that during the mindmeld/torture scene, she didn't figure out how to get in his head, more just turn his own power against him (I seem to recall someone official confirming her channelling dark side in that scene). If that's the case, she doesn't have to force pull the lightsaber, just hijack HIS force pull. But there's nothing in the film that really supports or disproves that, just an idea I thought was sort of neat.

Where they really dropped the ball I think was in part the limitations of the medium. She mind tricks the trooper. But not on her first shot. Her first attempt, she fails and he comes to tighten the restraints. Once again, centering herself, and gets it on the second shot. If they really wanted to show her force powers, being untrained but a little lucky, they'd have her fail one or two more times. But then everyone would accuse them of padding out the film, and they'd be right. Her first blaster shot misses. She flies the Falcon...but not before driving it through half the salvage encampment trying to get it off the ground. A few more failures and the things she has reason to be good at (knowing the inside of a wrecked Star Destroyer better than your average TIE jockey, knowing about the specific devices that were hampering the Falcon, climbing very well) would have made a little more sense, but I can see them being afraid to drag scenes out too long.

Anyway, I liked it. I'm probably going to like the next one, and I am excited!