Everything Drow

[Honest Tiefling]

Even if one goes with the strange canon that drow are skimpy, I am not sure one could prove it's an expression of anxiety as opposed to 'DEM TITTIES'. Sometimes, the simpler explanation can be just as valid.

[Metahuman1]

Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

Frankly, this makes sense. I know a LOT of guys and a fair number of girls whom are VERY, VERY into fitness and this is very much a part of there mind set. (Frankly, in at least some of there cases, I can see why, as I'm reasonably certain if they ever got a truly good grip on me and had intent, they could indeed freaking break me. And I'm not a big man, but I do have SOME degree of skill in defending myself so, when I make that assessment, it's not a lack of confidence talking. And yes, at least a portion of the ones that fall into this domain are also women.)






But yeah, I don't see the drow as being a patriarchal creation. For the 1 class thing. Here's the part you appear to have overlooked. That one class? That's the top ranked class. It would be like if a requirement to both vote and hold any form of public office or be a share holder or on the board of or CEO of any company employing more then like 5-6 people, was that one must be a Woman. Sure, in that case, your still banned form all sorts of other jobs, doctors, Law Enforcement, Entertainment, Military, so on, but the jobs assigned too you have complete power over all the other jobs anyway!

You can't be a cop, but you can order the cops to do your bidding, and have cops done away with in any fashion you like at your whim.

Same with Doctors, employees below CEO level in your business's or government institution's, entertainers, Military personnel, whatever else have you, cause again, your one field that you go into is "Being freaking in charge cause your at the top of this society's power structure!".

As for the Skimpy clothing thing, yeah, there's NEVER been another scantily clad character archetype or civilization in fantasy. Just, forget that Conan is frequently out fighting dues in full plate with not but whatever weapons immediately handy, a pair of gladiator sandals and a loin cloth to show off his arms and abs and thighs and calves and shoulders and pecks of steel, or that Red Sonya is like, THE go to thing to think of when the words "Chainmail Bikini" are uttered or written. And I say this as someone who's actually not terribly fond of the chainmail Bikini and only forgiving of the Loin Cloth if it's a breaking myself out of prison or I got attacked in the middle of the night while sleeping type scenario.


Also, light is a thing in the underdark. There are numerous references to it happening from various fungus type plants, creatures and somewhat magical things down there in various spots, and the drow have been known to produce it frequently cause, well, a small amount of it is a nifty thing to have as far as seeing out further away. So, Camo's not completely invalid. It's not optimal, but it's also not invalid.





And remember, this is a game that takes a lot of direction from that, and does a lot of things itself, not because they are practical at all, but because they are cool or look cool, and for no reason beyond that. Trust me, Duel Wielding certain weapons that can be duel wielded or 2 handing a Bastard Sword would NOT be mechanically outright better then an arming sword and a shield or buckler in almost any instance if that was not the case.


And for most of the rest, ok, Dark Magic is still associated with being evil, and the absolute easiest way to show that in a picture for most people in the west, whom come from civilizations were for millennia on end Night was to be feared because the darkness meant you couldn't see WHAT was coming after you, and whom made up more story's then can be learned in one life time I'd wager about things they though or believed or were sure or suspected were out there that never existed, is to just use a dark color like black. Have you never heard expressions like "the Darkest recesses of Hell/Nightmare?" or such to describe horrifying things?

Besides when I think of Drow, I think of them as having a skin tone so dark as to be not even close to physically possible for a human to achieve. Which has the added benefit of combining with a rare if not outright impossible hair color and eye color to sell the idea that this is NOT just a human of X decent, and is in fact very much it's own race, so don't take any other baggage other then the baggage it tells you on the tin that it brings to the door in with it.


Also helps to remember a percentage of the Drow population are a shade of freaking purple, and that White Drow (Albino Drow.) also exist.

Regarding the spider imagery, I actually DETEST spiders in general and about the only things Spider Related I make an exception for that rule for are Marvel Comics Characters (That includes the lady's like Spider Gwen and Silk, when there written well and I'm not just mad at Marvel in general like I have been for some years now.), so I'll outright GIVE you that one. The only defense I can offer is they are villains, so KILLING things that are spider themed makes me feel less bad about killing, because I hate spiders.

The BDSM thing, en, I think at the time it was just though of as an exotic idea so they threw it in. That's what THAT always felt like to me. People who know NOTHING about BDSM throwing in a touch of the imagery and some dialog that's trying to sound like it knows something about it but doesn't and is easily spotted as such for those with actual familiarity with it. It's not great, but it's also not nearly as damming as you seem to feel it is either. See the point about the systems tendency to do things because it looks cool and no reason beyond that.




Lastly, being there for the purpose of knocking them down is exactly the point of pretty much every creature in the game depending on the nature of the PC or PC's in a particular party formation in a particular game. An alleged Patriarchy has nothing to do with it. Again, I really, really feel like you are reading more things into it then there are actually present.

[Lord Raziere]

Missing the point. The drow are supposed to be evil, yes, and an evil matriarchy in fiction can theoretically highlight the problems of gender discrimination in general. But is that what the drow actually have? On the contrary, I would argue that a bunch of dominatrixes walking around in boobplates and heels and metal thongs, confined by social obligation to the priestess caste, and given the primary social duties of praying, bearing children, and being unreasonable, has very little to do with a sincere examination of gender repression. It has a lot more to do with male gaze and the patriarchal power fantasy of overthrowing vicious, evil women (who are of course sexy and promiscuous), and restoring a comforting patriarchal order to the world. The spider/BDSM imagery is just anxiety icing on the anxiety cake.

Well technically, historically speaking in victorian times, being upper class didn't necessarily mean you had a fulfilling life. sure you got more wealth and prestige and whatnot, but since any job that involves working with your hands was considered beneath them, this meant a lot of stuff they could possibly do was cut out, simply because they were surrounded by servants to do everything for them. the result was that a lot of the upper class was incredibly bored and had to occupy themselves with fashion, parties, gambling, hobbies and whatnot just to pass the time, since they couldn't necessarily just do whatever they want, they had to obey etiquette and keep their families reputation upheld, meaning their existence was pretty much a gilded cage, and lower classes didn't necessarily see the classes above them as better, since the middle class had more freedom to do whatever they want without the restrictive obligations that came with aristocracy, while the lower classes looked at the ones above them as having more flaws than they do.

so being in the higher class of society doesn't inherently mean you have a good life, you have more advantages in a material sense but those come with social ties that make you have to work to keep them. people back then didn't see getting into the aristocracy as an inherently good thing, and many preferred to remain in their own social class out of the belief that theirs was better.

So a higher class of society having limited duties like that is actually pretty accurate, as they have the "privilege" of not having to get their hands dirty. thus ironically putting them in a less free position to do anything since they're put on a mountaintop with little room to move.

[VoxRationis]

I'm kind of inclined to side with the "skimpiness is for titillation" interpretation of drow authorship, but as afroakuma pointed out, that's just a specific art style from particular authors and eras. It can be dispensed with fairly easily in the same way that your DM can point out that your paladin's scale armor is more than just a triangular scrap of scales hanging off her chest. And skimpy clothing is a problem in general with fantasy illustrations.

[Anonymouswizard]

Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

Ultimately though it comes down to group preferences.

While it does make a certain amount of sense, it only does among certain groups of drow at certain times.

So it makes complete sense for a priestess to do that while being about town. A warrior protecting a home or going out to patrol the tunnels will look at another warrior with a 'are you stupid' expression if they don't turn up in full armour. Projecting confidence is all good when your opponents aren't going to use an axe, while they are put some armour on and for Lloth's sake grab a thrusting weapon if we're going to be fighting in tunnels.

Needless to say, my drow are renowned as masters of the spear and rapier, generally preferring a one-handed shorter spear with a shield. Oh sure, priestesses run around in bikinis and wield curved blades, but when was the last time you saw them on the front lines?

[gkathellar]

See, the "whips and bikinis" era of drow is really alien to me. I'm used to conceptualizing drow as the old Erol Otus style "fitted but segmented armor" or the 2E Monstrous Manual's admittedly underdressed but still fairly conservative chain-skirted warrior. The one from the 3rd Edition Monster Manual also stands out. As for leading villains, Yvonnel Baenre from Salvatore's novels always came across to me, at least in my mind's eye, as basically a darker, female Emperor Palpatine.

Frankly, I see no use to incorporating it - so I don't. My drow are still hedonistic and selfish, but would never publicize their personal proclivities for fear of exposing a weakness that an enemy could use to end them. It's painted as a society in which one has to watch their back, not leave it teasingly exposed. Nothing about their tastes suggests to me any socially functional role for nonfunctional clothing.

And I'm down with that, especially if you either (a) play down some of the weird social restrictiveness, or (b) play up the fact that their society is designed specifically to make everyone miserable.

Like I said, they're great villains, and the baseline concept for a drow combat encounter, "they fight like PCs," that's rock solid. It's just that there are a lot of things you have to overlook, and a lot of those things date to some of their very first appearances.

Depends, drow of the underdark posits that dressing in skimpy clothing is a means of projecting confidence and power. Those who dress conservatively are perceived to be insecure and weak.

... wait they actually tried to justify that? Like, I get why as a writer one might be tempted to, but just, like why would you, but, just, no, what is this, I can't

*screams silently*

Even if one goes with the strange canon that drow are skimpy, I am not sure one could prove it's an expression of anxiety as opposed to 'DEM TITTIES'. Sometimes, the simpler explanation can be just as valid.

Oh definitely. The spiders and the whips come across as an anxiety thing, but the skimpiness is just male gaze played perfectly straight.

I don't think analysis of drow really holds them up as the product of one coherent vision. There's some good stuff, and it's really good. And then there's some bad stuff, and it's really bad. And then there's the stuff from their ecology article in Dragon, and look I can only get so angry okay.

[VoxRationis]

Needless to say, my drow are renowned as masters of the spear and rapier, generally preferring a one-handed shorter spear with a shield. Oh sure, priestesses run around in bikinis and wield curved blades, but when was the last time you saw them on the front lines?

In general, spear and shield Classical Greek phalanx fighting should be the default for underground inhabitants. The environment is likely too confining to ever get to where you're using full-on pikes, but there's also no room to get around a solid mass of well-armored infantry with spears. The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).
As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

[Guizonde]

In general, spear and shield Classical Greek phalanx fighting should be the default for underground inhabitants. The environment is likely too confining to ever get to where you're using full-on pikes, but there's also no room to get around a solid mass of well-armored infantry with spears. The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).
As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

correct me if i'm wrong, but for an offensive in a tunnel i agree that a phalanx would be brutal to face off against, but from a defensive standpoint? raiders, ambushes, sappers, commandos and traps would be just as effective while committing less meat soldiers. if you've got the lay of the land, you can use your environment as a weapon against much larger forces. which paradoxically explains why it would take a phalanx to breach a tunnel-fight. in my limited experience of rp-fighting in warrens, you've got 2 basic ways of winning a corridor fight: bottlenecking and blitzing. a bottleneck uses the environment to fight with you while denying the enemy that edge (litteral bottlenecks, refused flanks using flames, spikes, explosive toddlers...) multiplying your combat efficiency. this would use both traps and "ranged" weaponry, like spears, crossbows, a ballista if you can flaunt one... the blitz is the hard counter to the bottle-neck: you rush the enemy before he's got a chance to set you up to fight the enviroment as well as him. this involves usually a tank. i've experience with the litteral kind, but my players did create a sort of exo-armor for a player to similar effect. it was a walking bullet catcher who survived until the crunch of the assault. a breaching unit, if you will.

now, imagine you've got secret tunnels, hidden passages, hell, even air vents or multiple floors. that's the kind of landscape all too common in my homebrew, and the fights become 3-dimensional. a hassle to do on a battle-map, but sheer terror for the defenders of a fight. enemies will appear from all directions: front, back, left, right, top and bottom. throw a few drow assassins behind the phalanx with some choice poison and firebombs and watch the assault become a claustrophobic bloodbath.

[War_lord]

In general, spear and shield Classical Greek phalanx fighting should be the default for underground inhabitants. The environment is likely too confining to ever get to where you're using full-on pikes, but there's also no room to get around a solid mass of well-armored infantry with spears. The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).
As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

I disagree. The thing about the Greek phalanx is that you need a very specific battlefield. That is a flat plain of land, ideally somewhere where the enemy must meet you head on, like a mountain pass. A cave floor is going to be uneven, a massive cave system is going to have side passages. If your spearwall gets broken up or you're flanked, more flexible infantry will slaughter you. Drow don't need to get into a pitched battle, pitched battles are risky. They'll harass you with poisoned bolts, they'll take out your scouting parties, you'll get lost in the caves, any man who lags behind on the march will go missing, probably eaten by spiders. They won't strike the final blow till the army is already broken.

[Honest Tiefling]

And I'm down with that, especially if you either (a) play down some of the weird social restrictiveness, or (b) play up the fact that their society is designed specifically to make everyone miserable.

For some reason, the idea that Lolth just wants to see butts and makes everyone dress skimpily to suit her desires really amuses me. It doesn't make them terribly threatening, but highly amusing.

I think I agree with the camp that just because it is skimpy doesn't mean it's bad, but that explanation is a bit faulty. First, it favors magic over physical prowess and a cleric of Lolth would need both. Secondly, drow are encouraged to use any advantage they can, so why not just glamor up some armor and have the benefit of both? But now I imagine drow fighting like Celtic warriors and running in completely naked under glamored armor causing quite a lot of confusion for more prudish surface races...

I guess I could see drow not understanding covering up boobs, which to them are a source of power and beauty. Why would they be ashamed of their femininity and the very things that help them raise the future generations of drow? But on the other hand, I think most women need support and coverage there for comfort reasons. Having those be cold AND flop around might show that the drow woman can endure pain, but I think a certain amount of efficiency is needed for combat. One could say that some outfits aren't always made for combat, but I'd say every outfit is made to fend off assassins.

On the other other hand, I think it's going to take a better DM then me to not cause a group to giggle madly if a drow army attacks with bits flapping and flopping all over the place. Put me in the Erol Otus camp, whatever that is. Anyone got some pictures of that?

[VoxRationis]

@War_lord and Guizonde: Remember that the phalanx was developed by people living in very rough terrain, and that extended hit-and-run tactics work best when you've got lots of space to facilitate the "run" part of things. Even regions that are generally rough terrain have enough clear, flat spots that it's more than practical to pick a specific battlefield to fit a phalanx on, even if you'll have to fall back on skirmishers in other parts of the country. If that were not true, the Greeks, who live on a peninsula full of mountains, woody hills, and rocky coastlines in odd shapes, would not have developed it. Underground, the phalanx is even more secure, since there's lots of hard, impassable barriers to secure the flanks, and hit-and-run tactics have the limitation that both direction and distance of retreat is highly limited. If the area is honeycombed with tunnels running in all directions, that changes things, but most caves have plenty of one-dimensional choke points.

[gkathellar]

Phalanxes are loud and obvious, and require a disciplined professional army of the type drow would have a hard time assembling. Most importantly, they require esprit de corps and citizens willing to die for one another, which are things drow just don't do. In addition, drow frequently go up against giant monsters, wizards, beholders, illithid, incorporeal undead, and other creatures that can obliterate or at least wreak havoc on a formation with relative ease. And this is all assuming your stamping around doesn't attract something with a bad attitude and a burrow speed.

This is without touching on the environment. Remember, the Underdark is not just a tunnel complex. It's an enormous and highly varied cave system that moves rapidly between barely habitable and completely uninhabitable. You never know when you're going to encounter a crawlspace, moving water, flammable or poisonous gas, swamp conditions, giant lakes of acid, swarms of elf-eating wildlife, or rust monsters. The maps shift and change, for reasons both natural and supernatural. If this sounds a lot like a dungeon, well yes, that's the point. The Underdark is the ultimate dungeon, and the drow have been dungeon-crawling for longer than you have - hence why they fight like adventurers.

Also, bear in mind that most of what we hear/say about drow is about their nobility. Commoners are may end up as more typical guards and soldiers.

The only issue I see is that there might be supply issues getting enough wood to make spear hafts, and that's solvable if there's even a modicum of trade with the surface ("We will give you emeralds and rubies if you give us small amounts of timber" is a very attractive deal).

Underdark flora (mushrooms, mostly) is actually plentiful, so this wouldn't be a huge issue. Mind, the flora tries to kill you, but so does everything in the Underdark, so uh ... whatever.

As I understand it, though, the drow don't actually do foot soldiers. They do ambush raiding with commando teams and if they need to fight more openly, they use slave or monster cannon fodder. This is one more example of a reason their society isn't really viable.

For reasons I mention above, this is part of their supremacy. Drow are specifically trained as elites, partly because elites are what they need, and partly because their highly competitive society would allow for nothing else. You're right that it's not really a viable model IRL, and is maintained by Lolth and for Lolth through D&D's logic of personal power (for Lolth's amusement). It does make a certain sense in the Underdark, though, where any less aggressive society would end up on the defensive in short order.

[Honest Tiefling]

Phalanxes are loud and obvious, and require a disciplined professional army of the type drow would have a hard time assembling. Most importantly, they require esprit de corps and citizens willing to die for one another, which are things drow just don't do. In addition, drow frequently go up against giant monsters, wizards, beholders, illithid, incorporeal undead, and other creatures that can obliterate or at least wreak havoc on a formation with relative ease. And this is all assuming your stamping around doesn't attract something with a bad attitude and a burrow speed.

For some reason, this quote is making me think of Duergar, relying on their spell resistance and their armor to protect them from the hit and run tactics of the drow. The Duergar seem like they'd be the ones to favor the phalanx given their hardiness and smithing prowess, while the drow have to rely on magic and speed.

[gkathellar]

Yeah, it just comes about that magic and speed are largely preferable in an environment full of purple worms.

[War_lord]

@War_lord and Guizonde: Remember that the phalanx was developed by people living in very rough terrain, and that extended hit-and-run tactics work best when you've got lots of space to facilitate the "run" part of things. Even regions that are generally rough terrain have enough clear, flat spots that it's more than practical to pick a specific battlefield to fit a phalanx on, even if you'll have to fall back on skirmishers in other parts of the country. If that were not true, the Greeks, who live on a peninsula full of mountains, woody hills, and rocky coastlines in odd shapes, would not have developed it. Underground, the phalanx is even more secure, since there's lots of hard, impassable barriers to secure the flanks, and hit-and-run tactics have the limitation that both direction and distance of retreat is highly limited. If the area is honeycombed with tunnels running in all directions, that changes things, but most caves have plenty of one-dimensional choke points.

Because they did the fighting on the flat bits, in preagreed places. If you look at the historical accounts of Hoplites vs more regular infantry the Phalanx falls apart pretty quickly if it's engaged on rough ground by more flexible formations, which is why it was gradually abandoned for more flexible units beginning with the Peltast. It was developed for a very specific, almost ritualistic, kind of warfare. Once it encountered the flexible Roman infantry it couldn't keep up.

Anyway, why would the Chaotic scheming Drow fight in a formation that relies so heavily on physical strength and martial discipline that required trusting your comrades with your life?

[Dragonexx]

Because law and chaos are in general, stupidly written and inconsistently portrayed in D&D.

[Honest Tiefling]

Anyway, why would the Chaotic scheming Drow fight in a formation that relies so heavily on physical strength and martial discipline that required trusting your comrades with your life?

People are probably going to hate this, but I'd like to point out that Drow and Kender are both races that require Divine Intervention in order to not die out as a species. Just saying.

I'd like to see a drow society that's far more functional without a god hovering over them like how a mother hovers over a toddler that has just discovered electrical outlets.

[Anonymouswizard]

For some reason, the idea that Lolth just wants to see butts and makes everyone dress skimpily to suit her desires really amuses me. It doesn't make them terribly threatening, but highly amusing.

I think I agree with the camp that just because it is skimpy doesn't mean it's bad, but that explanation is a bit faulty. First, it favors magic over physical prowess and a cleric of Lolth would need both. Secondly, drow are encouraged to use any advantage they can, so why not just glamor up some armor and have the benefit of both? But now I imagine drow fighting like Celtic warriors and running in completely naked under glamored armor causing quite a lot of confusion for more prudish surface races...

I kind of like it, although I think I'll go for the 'skin tight armour' look for my setting if I keep the nudity thing (mainly because I'm not overly fond of glamoured armour). So most of the time the higher ranking a drow is the less they wear (and the ones at the top don't even wear pockets), but when going to battle they wear armour that's the fantasy equivalent of a latext space suit.

I guess I could see drow not understanding covering up boobs, which to them are a source of power and beauty. Why would they be ashamed of their femininity and the very things that help them raise the future generations of drow? But on the other hand, I think most women need support and coverage there for comfort reasons. Having those be cold AND flop around might show that the drow woman can endure pain, but I think a certain amount of efficiency is needed for combat. One could say that some outfits aren't always made for combat, but I'd say every outfit is made to fend off assassins.

IIRC the need for support varies with size, and some women find some forms of support uncomfortable (one of my friends decided bras are 'boobie traps'), so if we're going for flat chested drow it'll likely be less of a problem than if we're going for melons. Maybe assassin defence worked as an evolutionary mechanism to the point where male and female drow have very similar chests.

No, this is not because I find androgynous people hot.

It's likely that the amount of restriction and support given to their breasts will vary from drow to drow based on practicalities, and I fully expect bra spells to be invented by some drow in order to keep them in place with an uncovered chest. As well as corset spells as torture mechanisms.

On the other other hand, I think it's going to take a better DM then me to not cause a group to giggle madly if a drow army attacks with bits flapping and flopping all over the place. Put me in the Erol Otus camp, whatever that is. Anyone got some pictures of that?

Yes, hilarious at a table, but it is probably terrifying for the PCs. Not that it'll stop anybody from laughing.

[afroakuma]

I'd like to see a drow society that's far more functional without a god hovering over them like how a mother hovers over a toddler that has just discovered electrical outlets.

Technically Lolth is the source of their problems. Drow would likely have a significantly more functional society without her.

[Excession]

My explanation for the lack of clothing is quite simple: heat. I like the idea that, like the real world, the crust gets warmer the further you go down. You've got 30°C+ temperatures, 90+% humidity, no sun to make desert robes work, and nothing like surface wind. Heavy clothing would be inviting death by heat stroke. Conversely, any Drow seen on the surface, at least in the pseudo-european part of the surfaces, should be shivering inside multiple layers of fur.

[Guizonde]

i was precisely thinking of duergar as the phalanx, actually. drow don't sound like "dungeon crashers" to me. now, take all i say with a big grain of salt: i'm a medieval military historian, not a professionnal tactician. i only talked about my limited experience in rp-tunnel fighting and extrapolated using my limited knowledge. phalanx tactics (for footsoldiers) is not something i consider. that said, i'm glad that the forum consensus goes with what i'm saying: skirmishers slaughter formations in tunnels.

[Honest Tiefling]

No, this is not because I find androgynous people hot.

Not my preference, but I do prefer that elves retain this because so few races have a body of artwork with a range of androgynous types. When I hear complaints that elves aren't androgynous, it always seems to be from the people who don't want their smug Mary Sue/Gary Stu to have...Features that aren't conventionally attractive! OH THE HUMANITY. YOU POOR DEAR.

Anyway, a more slender body type would probably be a nice note if someone were devoted to the idea of scantily clad drow. I also like the idea of heat, because it does make sense and would also be a logical explanation (and get rid of the factor that boobies get cold). Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I doubt many people are going to acknowledge that a race known for being slender and delicate probably isn't going to be top heavy either.

Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

[Guizonde]

Not my preference, but I do prefer that elves retain this because so few races have a body of artwork with a range of androgynous types. When I hear complaints that elves aren't androgynous, it always seems to be from the people who don't want their smug Mary Sue/Gary Stu to have...Features that aren't conventionally attractive! OH THE HUMANITY. YOU POOR DEAR.

Anyway, a more slender body type would probably be a nice note if someone were devoted to the idea of scantily clad drow. I also like the idea of heat, because it does make sense and would also be a logical explanation (and get rid of the factor that boobies get cold). Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I doubt many people are going to acknowledge that a race known for being slender and delicate probably isn't going to be top heavy either.

Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

man, i like this tiefling.

[Honest Tiefling]

Another argument for the Drow to be highly androgynous: The more different their perception of female is from a real life human is, the less likely the drow are going to be seen as a commentary on women in power, as opposed to the simpler statement that oppression is bad.

For some reason, a drow woman finding a curvy human or orc woman unfeminine or even outright disgusting as opposed to her more slender, muscular and lithe body mildly amusing. That Marilyn Monroe? What a disgusting sack of uselessness that is a mockery of true femininity!

[2D8HP]

For some reason, the idea that Lolth just wants to see.....

......it's going to take a better DM then me to not cause a group to giggle madly if a drow army attacks with bits flapping and flopping all over the place. Put me in the Erol Otus camp, whatever that is. Anyone got some pictures of that?

Spoiler: Here you go!, "Bits? What Bits?"

Show

[Honest Tiefling]

2D8HP, all that is doing is making me think the drow fashion sense is horribly imparied from centuries underground. What is that first woman wearing, a Sexy Spiderman Halloween costume!? And those shoulder pads and spiky armor!? yeeeesh. Someone kidnap a fashion designer slave, stat!

It's giving me an odd urge to listen to some Madonna songs, honestly...I think I'll take nude over fashion disasters. Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?

[Max_Killjoy]

2D8HP, all that is doing is making me think the drow fashion sense is horribly imparied from centuries underground. What is that first woman wearing, a Sexy Spiderman Halloween costume!? And those shoulder pads and spiky armor!? yeeeesh.

Later 70s, most of the 80s... that's about all I can say about it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Not my preference, but I do prefer that elves retain this because so few races have a body of artwork with a range of androgynous types. When I hear complaints that elves aren't androgynous, it always seems to be from the people who don't want their smug Mary Sue/Gary Stu to have...Features that aren't conventionally attractive! OH THE HUMANITY. YOU POOR DEAR.

Eh, I'm weird. I once told a friend I thought her mustache was attractive. But yeah, a range of body types would be nice, especially as most of my PCs fall into the scrawny category. At least once because I confused pounds and kilos.

Extra fun, maybe drow don't have a concept of trousers. A male drow in a skirt looks almost exactly like a female drow in a skirt, smart adventurers turn on the family friendly filter so they can identify them.

[QUOTR]Anyway, a more slender body type would probably be a nice note if someone were devoted to the idea of scantily clad drow. I also like the idea of heat, because it does make sense and would also be a logical explanation (and get rid of the factor that boobies get cold). Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I doubt many people are going to acknowledge that a race known for being slender and delicate probably isn't going to be top heavy either.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I've never depicted elves (or the version in the game I'm ruining next week, lizardmen) as being top heavy. Thin, narrow shouldered, and flat chested, but potentially well toned.

I also like the idea of heat, it reminds me of lizardmen, who might wear little due to not being as warm blooded. Sure, it's still an excise, but it's one that makes some sense.

Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

Yeah, of we're moving away from FR drow I think we can make changes.

I wasn't going to the point of phalanxes, I just saw drow with spears barely their height or shorter used to fight in narrow caverns. I can see drow warriors distraining slashing weapons, because what use is it of it'll hit half the walls in half the tunnels you have to fight in (my underdark being large caverns connected by tunnels that are generally large enough for one or two elves). The priestesses might use them, especially certain knives, but they don't fight in the front lines.

I've also decided that they aren't dark elveselves in my setting, they're cave elves. There's both good and evil drow societies below the earth, looked in an eyeball cycle of hot and cold wars, with cities being destroyed and rebuilt.

[Excession]

Another factor is the type of tunnels. I assumed that the Underdark has a extensive cavern network, so the idea that there might be large enough caverns shaped by whatever to have flat terrain might not be an impossible one.

Drow are often placed in the middle levels of the underdark IIRC. That puts them in the interesting position of fighting dwarves above them versus monsters from below them.

For dwarves I see large numbers of well organised soldiers, with good equipment and incredibly good fortifications. Not as heavy on magic or ranged, but in their fortresses are so well defended as to make them impenetrable to the Drow. They can strike patrols, merchant traffic, or a dwarf that gets sloppy, and maybe raid forts using unconventional tactics like burrowing animals. Frontal assault is out of the question. OTOH Drow skirmishers can probably dissuade any dwarf inclusions too far beyond those fortresses. Sitting in the dark, wondering if your supply train will ever arrive, as your sentries slowly get picked off is a bad way to go.

The monsters present a number of quite different problems though. You have flying spellcasters like beholders, giant but unorganised hordes of Koa-toa, or mind controlled slave armies led by Illithids, just to name a few. Those big caverns that artists often draw, with a conventional city built on the cavern floor, will be very hard to defend against flyers. And they provide space for hordes to spread out, which is also bad. Tunnel networks seem better. Flying advantage is negated, hordes can be bottled up, and tunnels can be collapsed to cover your retreat from Illithids. You need to make it through the mazes, traps, murder holes, and incredibly dangerous pets, before you can force the Drow into a real fight. At which point you may not be fighting a perfectly organised army, but they are still very good individual fighters, and backed up by a lot of divine and some arcane magic.

[2D8HP]

....It's giving me an odd urge to listen to some Madonna songs, honestly...I think I'll take nude over fashion disasters. Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?

Since most of that art is from '79 to '81 your not far off!

Throw in some Bauhaus, Grace Jones, and Bowie on that mix tape and you got it down, young Sir!

♫ ♫ ♫
Ain't got no money and I ain't got no hair
But I'm hoping to kick but the planet it's glowing

Ashes to ashes, funk to funky
♫ ♫ ♫