Everything Drow

[gkathellar]

Technically Lolth is the source of their problems. Drow would likely have a significantly more functional society without her.

Right, this is critical to understand. Lolth is as much a demon as she is a goddess - literally, as she is AFAIK the only power pulling double duty as an exemplar. She's not just chaotic evil, she's an embodiment of chaos and evil and she has designed drow society to be petty, mean, bloodthirsty, and deeply unsatisfying, an exercise in fear, torture, and paranoia in which you are oppressed by those above you and terrified of losing your position to those below you. That it can't be sustained is a feature, not a bug, as this, too, forces its participants to turn to Lolth in both their prayers and their demeanor. Drow are made hard and cruel and vicious and manipulative through a situation of desperation that rewards the alternative with death, and so learn to eagerly propagate that same desperation. And when they flee to the peace and safety of the surface, and some distrusting human wary of the well-earned reputation of the drow bludgeons their head in with a stone, Lolth laughs and laughs because dead drow are her favorite joke and she has won.

If Lolth were to disappear, drow society would collapse in violence and then, probably, get better. Not necessarily less evil, but less actively unpleasant for all parties involved, sure. But she's not going anywhere. She is the Demon Queen of Spiders, and this is her web.

[Knaight]

Later 70s, most of the 80s... that's about all I can say about it.

They were bad decades for real fashion, it's hardly surprising that fantasy fashion manages to be yet worse.

[2D8HP]

...Someone kidnap a fashion designer slave, stat!

...Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?

That cracks me up, thanks!

I was puzzled when someone referred to Erol Otus's art as "conservative", but than I recalled someone posting on some other thread, "When I was a kid people were less flamboyant", meaning the '80's or '90's, which isn't how I remember those times at all!

Seriously kids, Drow fashion = Folsom Street Fair in 1989.

[Honest Tiefling]

Seriously kids, Drow fashion = Folsom Street Fair in 1989.

I take it that the street fair back then had less chaps and gimp suits, else I think you need a fashion designer for your drow.

[gkathellar]

Which takes us to another fantasy trope I hate:

Evil gods are active, and do stuff, and make plans. Good gods are passive, and give platitudes, and just react.

(And yet evil always loses... because.)

We rarely see one of the good gods telling their followers, "You there, go gather up those drow orphans, and protect them from hate, and raise them with care and generosity and fairness, and show the world that I am greater than Llllothllththh!"

Well, this is actually Eilistraee's (I spelled that right on the first try I'm so excited) whole MO. It's just really hard to do. Most other gods of good probably aren't opposed, but they and their followers have also got more immediate concerns. She's also competing with other drow gods who are evil but less actively malicious. And Lolth actively fights this kind of thing with drow agents ... and also with others, as Lolth is not her only name, and some of her other aspects have followers specifically devoted to killing drow. Even in success, a tiny dent in Lolth's vast, worlds-spanning power is just that: a tiny dent.

In general I do agree that good powers are portrayed as less active and that this is not great. But Eilistraee is worth mentioning, at least. She may be a lesser deity, but she seems scrappy.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, this is actually Eilistraee's (I spelled that right on the first try I'm so excited) whole MO. It's just really hard to do. Most other gods of good probably aren't opposed, but they and their followers have also got more immediate concerns. She's also competing with other drow gods who are evil but less actively malicious. And Lolth actively fights this kind of thing with drow agents ... and also with others, as Lolth is not her only name, and some of her other aspects have followers specifically devoted to killing drow. Even in success, a tiny dent in Lolth's vast, worlds-spanning power is just that: a tiny dent.

In general I do agree that good powers are portrayed as less active and that this is not great. But Eilistraee is worth mentioning, at least. She may be a lesser deity, but she seems scrappy.

True, credit to her for that.

Then again, there seems to be an inverse relationship between power and doing something with it for "good" deities. Eilistraee being a scrapper fits.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think when a goddess concerned with only a single race is the only deity people can point to as doing things of the Good Aligned Club, that's a slight issue. Especially since there's already another moon goddess who is literally the goddess of outcasts not doing much.

I'm not a real fan of Elistraee (I'm dyslexic, not going to try). I wonder what other interpretations of gods reaching out to the drow people can come up with.

[2D8HP]

...back then.....

With thoughts of "Days gone by" I now have a sudden craving for a clove cigarette and some Andre "champagne".

....I think you need a fashion designer for your drow.

We all have our "headcanon" for the Drow:

Drow?

Didn't Immortan Joe have white hair?





Maybe there is something to this Madness after all...



(did you see what I did there?)

And yes, undercommon has an Australian twang.

[afroakuma]

Where's Lolth to fix this when you need her?

Lolth couldn't fix herself a sandwich with two slices of bread and a jar of peanut butter.

[Excession]

I think when a goddess concerned with only a single race is the only deity people can point to as doing things of the Good Aligned Club, that's a slight issue. Especially since there's already another moon goddess who is literally the goddess of outcasts not doing much.

I'm not a real fan of Elistraee (I'm dyslexic, not going to try). I wonder what other interpretations of gods reaching out to the drow people can come up with.

To follow on with a theme, the Drow don't need another hero deity.

Making this up right now, but here goes. Replacing Lolth with reliance on another goddess wouldn't solve the problem, and might just twist that god to be just as messed up, depending on how you prefer your deity ↔ worshipper feedback. Fix the Drow, get them organised, give them a functional bureaucracy to replace the church and its chaos, make them follow some laws for a change, and Lolth either gets fixed with them or fades into irrelevance naturally. I'd keep Eilistraee, but make her roughly lawful neutral and purposefully not interested in day to day control of the Drow. She wants to free them, not just own them herself. As a bonus, Eilistraee gets to be something unique as a lawful leaning elven deity.

[Dragonexx]

Honestly, the only real thing that bugs me about Drow is that the way Driders are described is Backasswards. As punishment for failing Lolth you are... made more powerful and more like her in appearance. Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

[Mordaedil]

Honestly, the only real thing that bugs me about Drow is that the way Driders are described is Backasswards. As punishment for failing Lolth you are... made more powerful and more like her in appearance. Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

It would be if she was a sensible being. The thing about Lolth is that incredibly, she's really insistant on certain things about their society that doesn't make a lick of sense. Like, everyone who tries to frame it as justified vengeance against Corellon Larethian is actually branded a heretic in their societies eyes. They are really adamant that they were once surface dwellers punished for a crime sent underground and never the reverse, which would make sense. And she doesn't seem to like her followers much at all, frequently punishing success and discourage more than token resistance against surface dwellers.

But it makes sense if you see Lolth as a scorned lover. Her actions lack meaning because they are made out of frustration of being unable to be with the one she loves and her entire society reflects this.

[gkathellar]

Honestly, the only real thing that bugs me about Drow is that the way Driders are described is Backasswards. As punishment for failing Lolth you are... made more powerful and more like her in appearance. Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

Mainly it's a status thing. It's Lolth saying, "You're not useful enough to me as a priestess, better turn you into an abomination." From there, the drider can't really advance, and loses any temporal power they may once have held. They get personal strength, sure, but it's really more of an ironic thing.

[Anonymouswizard]

Here's an idea, Lolth has so many problems because drow aren't a social species in the same way other sapients in the setting are. They're still pack animals, but unlike other sapient species they saw no need to grow larger and larger packs, instead packs/families will split above a certain size and some drow will abandon their pack and join another in order to keep genetic diversity up.

Lolth's bizarre society is because she's herding cats. Drow backstabbing is from being forced into too small a space for the number.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I think when a goddess concerned with only a single race is the only deity people can point to as doing things of the Good Aligned Club, that's a slight issue. Especially since there's already another moon goddess who is literally the goddess of outcasts not doing much.

I'm not a real fan of Elistraee (I'm dyslexic, not going to try). I wonder what other interpretations of gods reaching out to the drow people can come up with.

One of my perennial ideas for a character is a Drow cleric who has realised the madness of Lolth and seen the light of a surface deity... specifically, Hextor. She now seeks to save her people by spreading the gospel of unified tyranny and industrialised totalitarianism. Drow Lenin, basically, or a more evil version of Ataturk.

Incidentally, I much preferred it in the older editions where it was only the Drow ruling classes that were uniformly evil, while their oppressed commoners tended more towards neutrality than anything else. Made much more sense than all of them down to the beggars acting like they were kicked out of House Lannister for being too backstabby.

[gkathellar]

One of my perennial ideas for a character is a Drow cleric who has realised the madness of Lolth and seen the light of a surface deity... specifically, Hextor. She now seeks to save her people by spreading the gospel of unified tyranny and industrialised totalitarianism. Drow Lenin, basically, or a more evil version of Ataturk.

Hell, just about any deity would be an improvement, even another Chaotic Evil one. Plenty of gods happen to be evil, but that's incidental to being tyrannical or violent or embodying the relentlessness of death or whatever's in their portfolio. Very few wake up in the morning and say, "how can I be evil and treacherous today?"

Lolth couldn't fix herself a sandwich with two slices of bread and a jar of peanut butter.

She gets stuck on the word "fix," alas. Gives her the heebie jeebies.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Hell, just about any deity would be an improvement, even another Chaotic Evil one. Plenty of gods happen to be evil, but that's incidental to being tyrannical or violent or embodying the relentlessness of death or whatever's in their portfolio. Very few wake up in the morning and say, "how can I be evil and treacherous today?"

Oh yeah, even Gruumsh is a better class of deity - say what you will, but he actually properly cares about the orcs, rather than being the multiverses worst tsundere. I just find the idea of societal uplift via fascism or communism more amusing.

[Honest Tiefling]

Seriously, it seems like becoming a drider should be a reward.

I could see it both ways, as the drider may...Well, I don't think it's banging any male drow any time soon shall we say. I would assume that if you are trying to breed the ultimate race you'll need them to pop out children every so often, so it could also be an end of a legacy and removal from a House.

Through I think in 4e, it got changed to being a reward. I can definitely understand the argument of an ironic punishment, but if you're going to worship spiders that much, I feel like some body shaping is in order else it's just a wasted opportunity! Let's at least add some extra eyes!

[Samzat]

Truth be told, I like the idea of the High ranking Drow being ruthless suits, while the lower class are dissatisfied but immobile pawns in their great games.

I think that the explanation should be that drow outfits are skimpy because lolth wants the drow to bump each other off regularly for her amusement, and its easier if all the drow, including males, wear silly skimpy clothing.

Sure it would be taken less seriously, but hey why not use them as a relief from the more serious creatures of the underdark

[Honest Tiefling]

I think that the explanation should be that drow outfits are skimpy because lolth wants the drow to bump each other off regularly for her amusement, and its easier if all the drow, including males, wear silly skimpy clothing.

Drow breeding should follow the same rules as cat breeding: If you have to do more to get the idiots to breed then simply shove them into the same room, something is wrong with that pedigree.

Through this does bring up a point, why aren't the males forced to show off the goodies in a matriarchal society? That part rarely comes into play despite people trying to justify chainmail bikinis on the ladies.

[Anonymouswizard]

Drow breeding should follow the same rules as cat breeding: If you have to do more to get the idiots to breed then simply shove them into the same room, something is wrong with that pedigree.

Through this does bring up a point, why aren't the males forced to show off the goodies in a matriarchal society? That part rarely comes into play despite people trying to justify chainmail bikinis on the ladies.

Speak for yourself, some of us use the fantasyland portals (which definitely do not exist, I'm surprised you even mentioned them) to see the scantily clad male drow.

It's as I've always said, if you want women in chainmail bikinis give me pretty boys in chainmail speedos.

[Honest Tiefling]

It's as I've always said, if you want women in chainmail bikinis give me pretty boys in chainmail speedos.

You I like.

And remember, if there is nudity in a culture, it should be applied to all people, male or female. And yes, having a nudist culture means older women are also naked goddamnit.

[Anonymouswizard]

You I like.

And remember, if there is nudity in a culture, it should be applied to all people, male or female. And yes, having a nudist culture means older women are also naked goddamnit.

Yep. Maybe I have an easier time with the gender bit because I'm bi, but this really doesn't seem hard for me. No, Conan doesn't count, yes he's hot but that's not what the nudity is about.

I must admit I don't make nudist cultures in my settings because of the older people bit, but I agree 100%. Go all the way or go home.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yep. Maybe I have an easier time with the gender bit because I'm bi, but this really doesn't seem hard for me. No, Conan doesn't count, yes he's hot but that's not what the nudity is about.

...You and I have vastly different standards for the attractiveness of a male.

But back on topic, I think another issue with Lolth is that motive is really not so great. I believe the standard version is that she got pissy at her husband?

[Anonymouswizard]

...You and I have vastly different standards for the attractiveness of a male.

I said hot, not attractive, for me it's two different things.

(Or in other words, I understand why people find him attractive, but I personally prefer pretty boys to muscle mountains*.)

* Who, as far as I can tell, are primarily attractive to other men or something?

[Irennan]

To follow on with a theme, the Drow don't need another hero deity.

Making this up right now, but here goes. Replacing Lolth with reliance on another goddess wouldn't solve the problem, and might just twist that god to be just as messed up, depending on how you prefer your deity ↔ worshipper feedback. Fix the Drow, get them organised, give them a functional bureaucracy to replace the church and its chaos, make them follow some laws for a change, and Lolth either gets fixed with them or fades into irrelevance naturally. I'd keep Eilistraee, but make her roughly lawful neutral and purposefully not interested in day to day control of the Drow. She wants to free them, not just own them herself. As a bonus, Eilistraee gets to be something unique as a lawful leaning elven deity.

The beauty of Eilistraee is that her way of freeing the drow is based on making sure that they're free to choose their path.

Her whole MO is based on her understanding of them. In her story, Eilistraee chose to be "one of them", to share their fate when she was but a girl, in order to be by their side in the dark times that she knew would come. Once she made that choice, despite all the crap that she was given (even by the drow themselves), she never walked away from that path, she never abandoned the drow or gave up on her battle. Despite the way they're raised and their society works, Eilistraee can feel and understand their desire for a better life, she can still see their beauty that has been lost to darkness (even when basically all others see them as monsters), and gives all herself to set that spark alight again.

She does by opening the eyes of the drow. Her "song", so to speak, reaches the souls of all dark elves at some point in their life, and resonates deeply with many of them, because it shows them and makes them feel what they have forgotten or been denied, but that many secretly long for. Eilistraee shows them the sheer joy of existence, of freely chasing their dreams and following their hearts, when they've been pretty much forced down a fixed path by Lolthite dogma in their whole existence. She gives them uncoditional love, appreciating them for what they are, despite everything, when they're taught that they have no value outside of status and being "meat for Lolth" (and when they've grown up without knowing the warmth of a gentle caress). She shows them the strength in sisterhood/brotherhood and caring for each other, when they've been forced to paranoidly watch their back and pliot against everything and everyone.

Eilistraee wants the drow to see all that they've been missing on in life, to make them *understand* that a different existence is possible and fulfilling (unlike they're conditioned into believing), and therefore, once their eyes are open, to find their path in life (one that doesn't involve being cruel a******s). She does it gently, even subtly, without forcing herself or any choice on the drow. Basically, she is there in every important moment of their journey, helping them to rediscover life, experience it like they never have, helping them in practical ways, providing comfort when they feel defeated or alone, etc... but never pressuring anything and letting thigns come naturally (for example, she may scare off aggressors, or make her presence felt when a drow is alone or disheartened, even provide some magic. However, she won't ask to worship her, do what she says, or w/e. At times--unless you already know her--you won't even be able to tell that it was her, just that you are not alone). You see this well in the Starlights and Shadows novels, in which Eilistraee is present in many important moments of the MC's personal quest, she enables the MC to make her choices, to learn to see the world in a wildly different way, you can really see the goddess' hand, but it's almost subtle.

She's been doing this since basically forever, as she has taken the role of a mother goddess for her people back when they were exiled, helping them re-learning to live.

It's beautiful IMO. In short, Eilistraee leads the drow out of their prison (and, weirdly, comfort zone) to make see the world, to expand their horizons and open their eyes, and then forge their own story once they're free from the chains of Lolth's dogma and brainwashing.

Law and bureaucracy won't do this for the drow, because their their life is so full of random, whacky, oppressive rules set by olth and her clergy, that it's not even fun (even their hairstyle can be determined by status...). They live an oppressed existence, they feel a need for freedom to express themselves and celebrate life, and that's why IMO Eilistraee is just perfect for them.

[Irennan]

To follow on with a theme, the Drow don't need another hero deity.

Making this up right now, but here goes. Replacing Lolth with reliance on another goddess wouldn't solve the problem, and might just twist that god to be just as messed up, depending on how you prefer your deity ↔ worshipper feedback. Fix the Drow, get them organised, give them a functional bureaucracy to replace the church and its chaos, make them follow some laws for a change, and Lolth either gets fixed with them or fades into irrelevance naturally. I'd keep Eilistraee, but make her roughly lawful neutral and purposefully not interested in day to day control of the Drow. She wants to free them, not just own them herself. As a bonus, Eilistraee gets to be something unique as a lawful leaning elven deity.

When you say that reliance on another goddess is problematic, there are also 2 things to consider.

One is how oppressive and tyrannical Lolth is. She controls every aspect of her the lives of her followers. With all the brainwashing and censorship going around, with drow being executed just for as much as speaking something that Lolth doesn't approve, it would be incredibly difficult for new ideas to ever form or spread (and therefore no new kind of society to ever be born) without someone helping injecting them in the current society, and proving that they work. Lolth actively works to prevent the drow from realizing that their society has been engineered by her to make them suffer (and even to impair their potential). And that's also what Eilistraee (and Vhaeraun too) is there for.

Second, when escaping Lolth and trying to find a new home on the surface/create new communities, the drow will generally find themselves lost. They may even fear the surface, they know that it is a hostile world, they may have troubles surviving. All this can be a discouragement from even trying. That's why Eilistraee makes sure that the drow are supported in this, she makes drow communities possible there, as she helps nurturing her people and gain the tools and knowledge to prosper on the surface (this is also part of her mothering of the drow as Ed Greenwood intended it).

I think that it does make sense, from a world-building perspective (especially when you consider that Eilistraee has been tied to the drow since the beginning of their history, so she's not a goddess that popped out of nowhere to help the dark elves).

[Honest Tiefling]

Her whole MO is based on her understanding of them. In her story, Eilistraee chose to be "one of them", to share their fate, in order to be by their side in the dark times that she knew would come. Once she made that choice, despite all the crap that she was given (even by the drow themselves), she never walked away from that path, she never abandoned the drow or gave up on her battle. Despite the way they're raised and their society works, Eilistraee can feel and understand their desire for a better life, she can still see their beauty that has been lost to darkness (even when basically all others see them as monsters), and gives all herself to set that spark alight again.

The problem I see with this is that this is never expanded upon. There's a few lines suggesting that she shared the fate of the others, but it really doesn't make sense other then banishment. Banishment from what isn't actually described (at least in third edition). She still counts them as allies and doesn't seem to suffer much other then this nebulous banishment. And banishment isn't the problem of the drow, it is systematic and carefully conducted abuse, trauma and manipulation.

And the point that even elves don't take the idea of her seriously sorta makes you wonder which god had the idiot ball to forget the daughter of the leader of their own pantheon trying to fight their arch-nemesis, good one guys.

[Irennan]

The problem I see with this is that this is never expanded upon. There's a few lines suggesting that she shared the fate of the others, but it really doesn't make sense other then banishment. Banishment from what isn't actually described (at least in third edition). She still counts them as allies and doesn't seem to suffer much other then this nebulous banishment. And banishment isn't the problem of the drow, it is systematic and carefully conducted abuse, trauma and manipulation.

And the point that even elves don't take the idea of her seriously sorta makes you wonder which god had the idiot ball to forget the daughter of the leader of their own pantheon trying to fight their arch-nemesis, good one guys.

In 2e it was described as such (as a willing choice to follow Vhaeraun and Lolth). After that banishment, Eilistraee wandered Toril, the new home of the dark elves. She abandoned the comfort and safety of her life in Arvandor to try and protect the dark elves from the evil powers that had set their eyes on them. She fought (without anyone's support) Vhaeraun's and Ghaunadaur's infuence (and then Lolth's too) in Ilythiir (and she was also hunted for that--it is pointed out in Evermeet: Island of Elves) to provide the dark elves another path. Even as her power collapsed and the Dark Disaster exterminated most of her followers, she too became drow after the Crown Wars, just to keep fighting for them, as one of them (taking that role of a mother goddess that I mentioned before--and this choice is also beautiful to me, as it acknowledges that--once you're born as drow--that is your identity and part of your are, even if considered a cursed form, and that you deserve to be accepted for that. And Eilistraee is in fact very strong on acceptance).

After that, even as she was lone against forces far greater than her, she never once gave up on that. She could have remained an elven deity, gather far more followers, power and so on as a goddess of beauty, song, dance, moonlight, hunt etc... Yet she became drow and fully dedicated herself to her people, and has been there for them when all others would hate and fear them (even taking care of the dark elves in the small everyday things--like providing food, lighting the path for those who are lost, "listening" to the emotions that they gather in the day, as they release them in a free-form messagge for her in the Evensong).

Btw, Eilistraee is allied to the Seldarine, but their relationship is described as strained. They don't like her much--and it shows in total lack of support. The justification for that is that it's a consequence of how divided elves and drow are, which basically means that it's due to Eilistraee also becoming a drow.

[Irennan]

In short, Eilistraee did and does a lot of things that show how close she is to the drow, and how much they mean to her. She could be enjoying her position and safety from her enemies within the Seldarine, yet she stands for the dark elves.