4th edition!

[TSGames]

Sorry, but I can't seem to edit the Wiki article, and I do not desire an account. A minor modification

On August 15, 2007 Wizards of the Coast had created a count down page for a product called 4dventure, suspending all other Dungeons & Dragons articles on their site in place of the countdown. IVC2 announced on August 16, 2007 that this was the announcement of Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition. The article stated that core books will be released in monthly installments, same as third edition: In May, 2008 the Player's Handbook will be released, in June the Dungeon's Master's Guide, and in July the Monster Manual.

Edited for grammatical correctness.

[Dr. Weasel]

Huh. I sold all my 3.5 gear yesterday not knowing about this. Probably at a slightly higher price than I'd get now, knowing that this is happening.

Neat.

[Nota Biene]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

[Fax Celestis]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

Further evidence that 4e will be compatible with 3.5 in at least some regard.

[TSGames]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

Time to digest the material? Never bit off more than you can chew...

[Grey Paladin]

Honestly, does the DMG or MM contains something you simply must have to play?

[Morty]

Honestly, does the DMG or MM contains something you simply must have to play?

Like WBL guidelines and CR calculators? That's for DMG, I agree that MM isn't all that necessary.

[mudbunny]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

They may do it this way to avoid swamping the printers. One at a time, they can probably ensure that enough will be printed to make sure that there are no FGS who have to put out a "Sold out of 4ed" sign up.

[Fixer]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

Logistics

Imagine how many books they have to print. Now realize that the Player's Handbook will be the book MOST obtained by players.

They run their printers for the PHB4.0 for a month, getting out as many copies as they can. Based on demand, they know how many printers they will need for the MM4.0 and start running a few printers for the PHB4.0, and running the majority for the MM4.0. Then they do the same for the DMG4.0 for as long as it takes to reasonably meet demand.

So on, so forth.

[bugsysservant]

Honestly, does the DMG or MM contains something you simply must have to play?

Well, if nothing else, you need monsters from the MM, or spend forever adapting 3.5 ones based on a system that you aren't familiar with. And you need the treasure tables from the DMG, though you could probably adapt those from old editions. And if you are going to do anything more advanced than standard combat or sitting in a tavern, you should have the DMG because you need the environmental rules. But, most importantly, you need the XP tables from the DMG, because without them, you're stuck at level one till the next book is released.

Edit: good point fixer, in the stereotypical five person group (blaster, healbot, meatshield, skill monkey, DM), you have five times the number of PHBs than DMGs+MMs. Printing the PHB well in advance of the others is just logical.

[Porthos]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

They did this with 3.0 as well. The main reason, I figure, is that people don't have to shell out 90-120 bucks at one time. If you look at the original 3.0 PHB, you would see some minor rules for DMing and Monsters in the back of the book. That way people could get some mini-adventure games going while they waited for the other two core books.

But really, WotC is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they release them all at once (like they did for 3.5 - which being an "upgrade" they could get away with) they get cries of "I can't afford to buy these all at once!1! You suck, WotC." If they stagger the release for people who are on a budget, you get the cries of "What?1? I have to wait three months before I can play the game!1! You suck, WotC."

This is the peril of spreading your content over 3-7 books. Of course the alternative is having a 750 page behemoth of a book, so some compromises are to be expected.

[brian c]

Well, if nothing else, you need monsters from the MM, or spend forever adapting 3.5 ones based on a system that you aren't familiar with. And you need the treasure tables from the DMG, though you could probably adapt those from old editions. And if you are going to do anything more advanced than standard combat or sitting in a tavern, you should have the DMG because you need the environmental rules. But, most importantly, you need the XP tables from the DMG, because without them, you're stuck at level one till the next book is released.

Assuming the PHB is the first book released, I think 4e would be playable right then. Lots of DMs, myself included, don't really use the treasure tables or experience tables at all. I give my players loot that I think is appropriate for them, and every once in a while I tell them that they've leveled up. (Of course, if anyone did item crafting I'd have to start keeping track).

Early indications are that D&D 4.0 will be very similar to 3.5, perhaps as similar as 3.5 is to 3.0 although probably not as much. It shouldn't be disastrous to use 3.0 or 3.5 monsters against 4.0 PCs, or to use the same basic DMG rules; keep in mind that most combat rules are in the PHB, so you'll have those right away. If nothing else, playing like this will give you a good test-run of 4.0 characters before the full game comes out. Also, for anyone who homebrews/houserules a lot, big parts of the DMG/MM are already obsolete.

Edit: good point fixer, in the stereotypical five person group (blaster, healbot, meatshield, skill monkey, DM), you have five times the number of PHBs than DMGs+MMs. Printing the PHB well in advance of the others is just logical.

I've never been in a group where everyone had a PHB; the most PHBs there have ever been was 3, in a group with 6 PCs and a DM. I'd say that in general, half of players have a PHB and the DM has all three core.



Edit: forgot to mention, if you only use enemies with class levels, you don't need the MM at all

[Grey Paladin]

Like WBL guidelines and CR calculators? That's for DMG, I agree that MM isn't all that necessary.

Never used either in the 6 years I am running 3.X

I also always write up my monsters/magic items myself unless they're already very well written, like Vorpal's stuff.

And the formula to calculate EXP to level is very simple and rather easy to learn by heart.

[WorthingSon]

So they are including the ToB as Core, if that means that the Fighter starts to have maneuvers and stances then I am worry/excited. Fighters and other melee classes are usually the basic first time player characters, as they have the least special features and most direct game play (ala roll... hit... damage).

With stances and maneuvers introduced, that simple game play becomes much more challenging. That will make it harder for new players, but also make the melee characters more fun to play for experienced players.

I also hope they work on the Multi-classing system some. I play in a high power group and I am tired of seeing so many 1-2 level dips and such.

[bugsysservant]

Never used either in the 6 years I am running 3.X

I also always write up my monsters/magic items myself unless they're already very well written, like Vorpal's stuff.

And the formula to calculate EXP to level is very simple and rather easy to learn by heart.

Yeah, but its highly probable that it will change between versions. I could get by with no books, just using the SRD, but the books must first be published for that to happen.

[Porthos]

Honestly, does the DMG or MM contains something you simply must have to play?

Another thought: With the Dungeons and Dragons Insider Experience coming online, there may very well be DMG/MM style content in it for people to play 4E games while they wait for the other two books to come down the pike. At the very least it would be a good hook/incentive for gamers to give it a look while they wait for the MM and DMG to be printed.

[Morty]

And the formula to calculate EXP to level is very simple and rather easy to learn by heart.

But you've got to learn them from somewhere, right? Not to mention that in 4ed both WBL and XP will likely be very different.

[Grey Paladin]

Changes in EXP only matter if your use CR, which I don't

M0rt: Learned them in 3.0, never used Wealth By Level as I do not let my players simply buy magic items . . . honestly all these things seem to me like tools for lazy/newbie DMs.

[Morty]

Changes in EXP only matter if your use CR, which I don't

So I take it you send monsters after players and see if they get splattered across the wall or not?

M0rt: Learned them in 3.0

Alright, so you didn't have to buy 3.5 DMG. But 4ed is likely to have entirely different system.

never used Wealth By Level as I do not let my players simply buy magic items . . . honestly all these things seem to me like tools for lazy/newbie DMs.

I'm not all too fond of WBL or buying magic items but those things have their place in D&D. Plus, even if those things are for newbie DMs, every DM starts as newbie.

[Porthos]

Yeah, but its highly probable that it will change between versions. I could get by with no books, just using the SRD, but the books must first be published for that to happen.

And you have to wait for the SRD to be published as well. I "fondly" recall the griping of "So... When exactly is the SRD going to be posted online" back when 3.0 was first introduced. Those of you expecting the new SRD to be put up online somewhere on May 2008 should prepare to be disappointed.

Oh sure, it could be posted immediately. But I wouldn't bet on it.

[TSGames]

I just hope that 4.0 is not an "upgrade" in the same way that Vista was an "upgrade."

[yango]

Ok, one thing that bugs me: How come, whenever they release a new edition, they release one core book a month for the first three months? If you really need the three core books to play (and I think at least the DM does) why is there a period of two months when a new edition is "out" but also unplayable?

IIRC the first print run of the 3.0 PHB had a DMG/MM preview-guide-thing at the back, that detailed monster stat blocks, XP tables, and magic items that would be reasonable loot for a low-level party. Hopefully they'll do that again, so that its *not* unplayable. They didn't need to do it for 3.5 since it was manageable using the 3.0 DMG/MM until they came out.

[bugsysservant]

Assuming the PHB is the first book released, I think 4e would be playable right then. Lots of DMs, myself included, don't really use the treasure tables or experience tables at all. I give my players loot that I think is appropriate for them, and every once in a while I tell them that they've leveled up. (Of course, if anyone did item crafting I'd have to start keeping track).

Early indications are that D&D 4.0 will be very similar to 3.5, perhaps as similar as 3.5 is to 3.0 although probably not as much. It shouldn't be disastrous to use 3.0 or 3.5 monsters against 4.0 PCs, or to use the same basic DMG rules; keep in mind that most combat rules are in the PHB, so you'll have those right away. If nothing else, playing like this will give you a good test-run of 4.0 characters before the full game comes out. Also, for anyone who homebrews/houserules a lot, big parts of the DMG/MM are already obsolete.

Yeah, but if you already have established houserules/homebrews that eliminate the majority of the DMG/MM, why would you buy the new version to begin with .
From my experience, people generally only houserule when they see that something is wrong, not preemptively. And homebrewing well balanced encounters/items can be time consuming or unbalanced. As for 3.5 being that similar to 4.0, I think that they would add superficial changes just to prevent that. On the order of screwing with the XP levels and gains so that it is inherently the same, but looks like they did some major analysis overhaul. Easier than playtesting, no?

[Grey Paladin]

So I take it you send monsters after players and see if they get splattered across the wall or not?



Alright, so you didn't have to buy 3.5 DMG. But 4ed is likely to have entirely different system.



I'm not all too fond of WBL or buying magic items but those things have their place in D&D. Plus, even if those things are for newbie DMs, every DM starts as newbie.

Believe it or not, I look at the monster, compare it to the PCs, and make an educated guess based on experience, (And when I did not have the experience of a veteran DM, then yes, I did exactly that )

Never followed the CR system, and I hardly use MM monsters, so them method of EXP calculations matters little

True, all I am saying is that it is theoretically possible to play with only the Player's Handbook

[TSGames]

August 16th 2007
6:30 Sagamore Ballroom, Indianapolis Convention Center
hmm...

[Evil DM Mark3]

Here is a question. If the core books are coming out May-July, when is the new SRD coming out?

[Fixer]

Another thought: With the Dungeons and Dragons Insider Experience coming online, there may very well be DMG/MM style content in it for people to play 4E games while they wait for the other two books to come down the pike. At the very least it would be a good hook/incentive for gamers to give it a look while they wait for the MM and DMG to be printed.

When they originally published 3.0, there were some monsters in the back of the book for those players who wanted to immediately play. I don't recall if they had much in the way of XP tables but I expect they added those in as well.

I just hope that 4.0 is not an "upgrade" in the same way that Vista was an "upgrade."

I rather like Vista compared to XP. Not enough to go out and buy it but since it came with my new PC anyway I am not complaining. (Although I would like better access to the Security table...)

[Saithis Bladewing]

Am I the only person who really doesn't mind that 4th edition could be released soon? :3

Maybe it's because the only books I actually own anymore are the core 3e books, not even 3.5e. I've just been making do with borrowed books from friends and the SRD.

[rollfrenzy]

Here is a question. If the core books are coming out May-July, when is the new SRD coming out?

Long enough after release to make sure that everybody buys the books. Best guess? 2009.. or thereabouts.

@ Saithis

Nah, I am kind getting excited a little. I just hope it's New and Improved, not just 3.75.

[Morty]

Believe it or not, I look at the monster, compare it to the PCs, and make an educated guess based on experience, (And when I did not have the experience of a veteran DM, then yes, I did exactly that )

Hm. Fair enough, but I belive CR is great help for measuring monsters' strenght so they don't get massacred but don't massacre PCs either.

Never followed the CR system, and I hardly use MM monsters, so them method of EXP calculations matters little

True, all I am saying is that it is theoretically possible to play with only the Player's Handbook[/QUOTE]

Theoretically, yes. But most of the time, it's easier to play with CR, EXP calculators, etc. for new players and DMs.