4th edition!

[skywalker]

Now that I've read the articles above about races, classes, and such (since I'm pretending to have never seen that teaser trailer ), I have to admit that I'm complete excited about 4E now.

Question, where are these articles? If they've already been linked I apologize, but I'm sure you can understand that even I(I normally religiously read every page of a thread before posting) cannot even attempt to read this entire behemoth.

To re-cap: Links to these articles, possibly the teaser, please?

[Matthew]

Go to Enworld for compiled reviews. Search Youtube for the Teaser Trailer.

[RTGoodman]

Question, where are these articles? If they've already been linked I apologize, but I'm sure you can understand that even I(I normally religiously read every page of a thread before posting) cannot even attempt to read this entire behemoth.

To re-cap: Links to these articles, possibly the teaser, please?

Oh, no problem. BCOVertigo kindly posted the three articles I mentioned somewhere way back on like page 16 or 17. You can check them out here.

The teaser trailer has been mentioned a couple of times, but here's another link just so people just getting into the conversation can see it more easily.

[darth_belkar]

I think my favorite part about the imminent release of 4E is the fact that EVERYONE at WotC has been vehemently DENYING that there was a new edition in the works for the past 3 years. Now we find out that, oh wait, 4E has been in the planning stages since early 2005...about a year and a half after 3.5 came out...

Stupid company that made Magic: The Sucking...

I've played D&D for about 12 years now, and I think 3.5 is the easiest system to use thus far. It isn't perfect, but it sure beats the old AD&D 1st ed rules I started with. (We only had old school books to begin...hand-me-downs, you know?)

Now, D&D will be converted to a WOW clone, ready mixed to drop into your video game platform of choice...

I think I'll stick with 3.X until...well, forever...

[Matthew]

Ah, Darth Belkar, you've just summed up the opinion of many a 2e player when the transition to 3e was announced. In fact, there was not as great a difference between 2e and 3e as people like to pretend (though there were significant differences). Similarly, I doubt there will be huge differences between 3e and 4e.

How do people feel about the prospect of a Saga style Skill System?

i.e.
1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)

[Damionte]

Posting again.

Our group most likely won't jump to 4th edition. We're in a campaign now, and will be starting a new one around thanksgiving that will probably go a year or so.

So the idea of jumping to 4th won't really come up. Particularly since there won't be enough source material until one of the other GM's take over. This group is older and has a bit more disposabel income so we have multiple copies of all of the 3.5 stuff. So the idea of junking it all to move to 4th now that 3rd edition is finnally complete kinda rubs us the wrong way.

Had they gone maybe one more year and released 4th edition in maybe late 2009 or early 2010 we'd have been happier as we it woudln't have been so hot on the heels of 3.5 completion.

Anyway 4.0 won't have enough stuff at release. Unless they're going to go like Gurps or Heroes and give us one hell of a rule book.

I yes hero systems rulebook is huge, I mean in some states you couldn't walk around with a book tha large without a weapons permit. But in the end it's just 1 book. you only need that oen book to do everything.

That's soemthing I would liek to see with D&D 4th. Though considering thier business model I know it won't happen. Will they put enough stuff in the players handbook to allow us to play the same amount of variety in character class options that we currently can in 3.5?

That'll be what pushes many of us to 4th.

[Zeful]

Well having read the posted articles and looking over the 4th Edition "Forum" I've come to the conclusion that 4th ed is needlessly complicated and will only get much much worse.

[Rob Knotts]

I've come to the conclusion that 4th ed is needlessly complicated and will only get much much worse.

Ah, so it will be backwards-compatible with earlier editions

[horseboy]

Anyway 4.0 won't have enough stuff at release. Unless they're going to go like Gurps or Heroes and give us one hell of a rule book.

I yes hero systems rulebook is huge, I mean in some states you couldn't walk around with a book tha large without a weapons permit. But in the end it's just 1 book. you only need that oen book to do everything.

That's soemthing I would liek to see with D&D 4th. Though considering thier business model I know it won't happen. Will they put enough stuff in the players handbook to allow us to play the same amount of variety in character class options that we currently can in 3.5?

That'll be what pushes many of us to 4th.

Well, it's not "just" going to be the PHB. They're releasing those two "Interium" (I have no idea how to spell that) books in what, October and April. From the sound of it, the one in April will be an "temporary" DMG.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

I dunno, I'm pretty excited.

[darth_belkar]

Similarly, I doubt there will be huge differences between 3e and 4e.

I don't know about that...WotC has practically announced that 4E is based on Saga ed. and Tome of Battle. So, what I'm seeing is, instead of the Star Wars RPG as futuristic D&D, now D&D will be ancient Star Wars...and anime.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Book of 9 Swords, and I've hear a lot of good things about Saga (haven't had a chance to play yet...no SW gaming group near by...), but I want D&D to be what it always has been: innovative, original, and unique.

Trying to make it more like a video game isn't improving anything. It hurts the system. Tabletop RPGs are supposed to be about developing a character and playing in a fictional world...not hacking and slashing your way through all the "bosses". (Not that there's no place for h&s, but that is NOT the RPGs forte, IMHO.)

D&D has gone strong for 30+ years now with the players we already have, and those people who want to experience a fantasy world without sitting in front of the tube. Dumbing the system down to appeal to video gamers is only going to drive veteran role-players away. (I have nothing against video games, really. I enjoy them quite a bit myself...I just like to keep the two types of gaming separate...)

I realize I'm re-hashing the sentiments of 2E gamers when 3E came out...I was one of those 2E players who loved the system. But, I still saw room for some vast improvements, and when the books came out for 3E, I was very happy with the updates and changes. But now, it seems that WotC is just rushing through editions to sell more books and pad their bottom line. Why not show some loyalty to the system?

I'm going to stop ranting now...

[Matthew]

Well, it's not "just" going to be the PHB. They're releasing those two "Interium" (I have no idea how to spell that) books in what, October and April. From the sound of it, the one in April will be an "temporary" DMG.

I thought the preview books were December and January, an Adventure was scheduled for April, followed by the PHB in May, DMG in June and MM in July.

[Edit]
I dunno, Darth Belkar, seems to me most Saga changes are for the better (Maybe I'm biased as it looks a lot like my House Ruled and Home Brewed 2e Game). All of the above I pretty much approve of for 3e, never mind 4e, and the disposing of the rubbish critical rules (ala Saga) would please me as well.

A lot of the other Articles sound like Conan D20. I just don't think it's going to be unrecognisable.

[horseboy]

Eh, somewhere in there. I've slept since then, don't remember the exact details.

[Dragor]

Aw, man, I just read through this whole thread. I ROFL'd badly...

And.... 4th Ed? Personally, I'm very excited. And that beholder looked pretty nifty too.

*Twitches*

I.... I was planning on staying up waiting for the countdown to finish... pretty glad I didn't now.

[skywalker]

I'm with darth, I think they're focusing on the combat a little bit too much, and this new jibber-jabber about axes and hammers being something cool sounds to me like a video-game type of system. What I've heard of 4e sounds less realistic than 3rd edition. There's a reason why most optimized characters use swords in D&D. Because they're simply better, they were historically and that's the right way for them to be modeled in D&D.

@matthew: I'm rather put off by this skill system. In particular, what it means for skills like open lock, and in general, what it means for the rogue class. I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on how they're changing fighters(maneuvers for everyone, hurray! Also, the aforementioned specialization, about which I'm pretty iffy) but on the subject of rogues, I've no idea what they're doing, but I know they're changing them drastically. And this one hurts, because I LIKE rogues.

It looks like customization, in general, is down.

As for speeding up combat, I feel like slow combat is something we all complain about, but don't really want to see change. Because ALL RPG combat drags. Any RPG that is respected has slow combat. I think it's secretly because we all like that time in the spotlight, where everyone's watching OUR dice.

But the one thing I can absolutely say I LOVE about this new edition is: GOODBYE GRAPPLE RULES!!!

[Matthew]

I'm with darth, I think they're focusing on the combat a little bit too much, and this new jibber-jabber about axes and hammers being something cool sounds to me like a video-game type of system. What I've heard of 4e sounds less realistic than 3rd edition. There's a reason why most optimized characters use swords in D&D. Because they're simply better, they were historically and that's the right way for them to be modeled in D&D.

You haven't read the previews on the site, then. Swords are still the best weapons, apparently, though personally I'm not entirely convinced that such is perfectly historically accurate. Honestly, though, 3e was the king of focusing on combat, which is saying something, because previous editions liked their combat as well. What I am interested in is the Shield Rules. Hopefully, we will see an Active Block mechanic like the Jedi's Block/Parry thing or ToB's Wall of Blades Manoeuvre (also very similar to 2e's Parry/Block Manoeuvre)

@matthew: I'm rather put off by this skill system. In particular, what it means for skills like open lock, and in general, what it means for the rogue class. I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on how they're changing fighters(maneuvers for everyone, hurray! Also, the aforementioned specialization, about which I'm pretty iffy) but on the subject of rogues, I've no idea what they're doing, but I know they're changing them drastically. And this one hurts, because I LIKE rogues.

Yeah, that is a concern, but I actually doubt that it will be perfectly like Saga in this respect. What I expect is for the 'buying Skills as Proficiencies and Focus aspects to remain (granting +5 and +5 Bonuses), but some sort of Skill Point Mechanic to be available. even if it isn't by default, it would be relatively easy to House Rule on.

It looks like customization, in general, is down.

I doubt this very much, but we will see.

As for speeding up combat, I feel like slow combat is something we all complain about, but don't really want to see change. Because ALL RPG combat drags. Any RPG that is respected has slow combat. I think it's secretly because we all like that time in the spotlight, where everyone's watching OUR dice.

Not me, I much prefer speedier combats.

But the one thing I can absolutely say I LOVE about this new edition is: GOODBYE GRAPPLE RULES!!!

Yep, that will be a benefit!

[Tellah]

How do people feel about the prospect of a Saga style Skill System?

i.e.
1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)

I love it. The 3.5 skill system is just another layer of needless complexity in character creation--probably my chief concern with the 3.5 ruleset. If D&D 4e uses the Saga skill system, I'll be able to judge quite easily the likelihood that my players will be able to overcome a particular challenge. Going from ranks to something that simply scales by level will make character creation just that much easier, too. I just ran a game this evening in which we introduced a player's wife to the game, and it took a table full of 3.5 veterans about two hours to build a fifth-level bard for this poor woman. Anything that streamlines the game is a big boon for me.

Oh, and If you want a primer on talent trees, have a quick look at the d20 Modern SRD. They're a wonderful replacement for class features, and if designed well they should obviate the need for having so many distinct classes. A scout could easily be modeled as a separate talent tree for the rogue class, for instance.

[Matthew]

Heh, Tellah, maybe you should be using the Unearthed Arcana Variant that puts full ranks in chosen Skills!

Yeah, I like the simplification in some ways and dislike it in others (Half Level mechanics annoy me a lot). Either way it's not the end of the world by a long shot. As I understand it, many Traits are Skill fuelled Special Abilities.

[skywalker]

What's this about traits and such?

And that is how the supposed new skill system works? Half your character level etc.?

What ever happened to having a rogue that could move, a rogue that could pick locks, and a rogue that could sneak attack not necessarily being the same person?

I dis-like talent trees as well. The d20 modern classes are far too generic, in my opinion. I'd much rather have a scout and a rogue as have the scout be a rogue variant.

[Matthew]

They paired down Skill Bonuses for Saga, removing Synergy and Racial Bonuses and such, to prevent abuse and basically 'cap' Skills to some extent. Traits replaced these, which would allow things like 'reroll a Persuasion Check' or something like that.

There's nothing saying that Skills are themselves going to be grouped together and streamlined, though what would it really matter if they combined Sneak and Hide into Stealth or Search and Spot into Perceive and so on? [Edit] Disclaimer - I think the 3e Skill System is pretty terrible, so I am probably biased.

[Thurbane]

I'm gonna sit tight with the 3.5 books I've got, OGL stuff posted by good people on the internet and buying stuff from 3rd party publishers.

I'm not going to buy any 4E until the inevitable 4.5

[Damionte]

I'm gonna sit tight with the 3.5 books I've got, OGL stuff posted by good people on the internet and buying stuff from 3rd party publishers.

I'm not going to buy any 4E until the inevitable 4.5

I'm kinda thinkign that too. They burned me with the 3.0 - 3.5 thing. I bought the 3.0 stuff early at a con, for what I felt at the time was way to much money. Just to have them be obsolete later and completely unusable.

So no I will definately not be buying the 4.0 books till they've been out a few years. I won't be burned like that again.

[AtomicKitKat]

I'm gonna sit tight with the 3.5 books I've got, OGL stuff posted by good people on the internet and buying stuff from 3rd party publishers.

I'm not going to buy any 4E until the inevitable 4.5

Yeah. They'll probably be patching it with 4.0.1, and won't slow down till 4.4.5

Trying to appeal to the "video-gaming crowd" is flawed logic anyway. If you're part of the video-gaming crowd, the only reason to switch to P&P is because your old man is breathing down your neck about the electric bill.

[skywalker]

What if they released 4.5 as an update to 4.0? They're already laying the groundwork for downloadable errata and the like with the online versions of every book, and while I know that isn't part of the wizards business strategy, most of the cost of ALL books is in the printing and binding. It seems to me like one could opt for a much cheaper update that way instead of buying something printed. Since content is much easier to publish that way, it seems like wizards would get the same amount of profit and we would spend less, leading to a win-win(Especially in their public relations).

[Dausuul]

D&D has gone strong for 30+ years now with the players we already have, and those people who want to experience a fantasy world without sitting in front of the tube. Dumbing the system down to appeal to video gamers is only going to drive veteran role-players away. (I have nothing against video games, really. I enjoy them quite a bit myself...I just like to keep the two types of gaming separate...)

I realize I'm re-hashing the sentiments of 2E gamers when 3E came out...I was one of those 2E players who loved the system. But, I still saw room for some vast improvements, and when the books came out for 3E, I was very happy with the updates and changes. But now, it seems that WotC is just rushing through editions to sell more books and pad their bottom line. Why not show some loyalty to the system?

Because the system is still in need of updates and changes?

I don't see any "dumbing-down" going on; what I do see is a lot of stuff being simplified that is currently far more complicated than it needs to be. In terms of game mechanics, a tabletop RPG should be much less complex than a video game; the video game has a computer to crunch all the numbers for you, but tabletop gaming relies entirely upon human brains. So whenever you add a mechanic to a tabletop game, you have to ask, "Does the added verisimilitude, improved game balance, or tactical flexibility provided by this mechanic outweigh the added headache of keeping track of it?"

While D&D 3E made many great innovations, I find it often loses sight of that principle. To take just one example, consider ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, and enervation. All of these are essentially the same thing--rays of negative energy that sap an enemy's strength. Yet each of them uses a completely different mechanic. Is it really necessary to keep track of a Strength penalty and fatigue penalties and negative levels? I realize one can argue for subtle differences between the spells, but is it actually important enough to make a harried DM take time in the middle of combat to keep track of those differences?

As for speeding up combat, I feel like slow combat is something we all complain about, but don't really want to see change. Because ALL RPG combat drags. Any RPG that is respected has slow combat. I think it's secretly because we all like that time in the spotlight, where everyone's watching OUR dice.

RPG combat is certainly slow compared to real combat or even video-game combat, but slow is one thing and dragging is another. It's not so much a question of the pace as it is of what players and the DM spend their time doing. If that time is spent discussing tactics, making clever maneuvers, and role-playing dramatic moments, it's a good combat system. If it's spent adding up numbers and trying to keep track of a million modifiers... not so much.

But the one thing I can absolutely say I LOVE about this new edition is: GOODBYE GRAPPLE RULES!!!

Amen.

[Were-Sandwich]

Digital Versions of Rulebooks
Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee.

Gotta catch 'em all!

Also: apparently 4e has been in development since 2005. So, all those times they said 4e wasn't in development, they were flat-out lying. Way to consolidate your fan-base, right after axeing Dungeon and Dragon.

That video is hilarious. Am I the only one who finds the grappling rules pretty easy to understand?

The new edition looks ok. I think I'll stick to jsut printing the SRD though. I have too much money invested in 3e to just dump it, especially considering how infrequently I actually play.

Also: That is one BITCHIN' beholder. The new art looks pwntastic.

[PlatinumJester]

They so better have gotten rid of the monk and replaced it with a fighter varient that uses fists.

Apart from that, did anyone manage to get through to the site and if so did they manage to copy the content onto somewhere else?
I had to go to bed right after the countdown finished

[mudbunny]

Also: apparently 4e has been in development since 2005. So, all those times they said 4e wasn't in development, they were flat-out lying. Way to consolidate your fan-base, right after axeing Dungeon and Dragon.

For all those people who are complaining about WotC not telling you that they were going to be updating 3.5. Think about it a bit. Did you really expect them to come out and say "Don't buy anything that we are going to be selling, because we are putting out a new edition eventually."

They're a business, whose goal is to make profit. Anyone who *didn't* see something like this coming was being quite self-deceiving.

[Roxlimn]

I'll have to admit that I'm sick of this money complaint as well. So WotC is out to make money. Wow. Like that was a surprise. Okay, who in here thought that WotC was a nonprofit organization dedicated to gaming?

Businesses need money to survive. Companies that lose money die, and then they stop making whatever it was they were making. Particularly for a luxury item like games, it's in the company's best interests to make it appealing to its market, because it's not a necessary purchase. Wizards may not be listening to YOU personally, but it does listen to its market feedback. I think that a good part of why ToB elements are to be included into the new edition is because of the overwhelmingly positive feedback it's been getting.

If you want changes, or if you like something, then say it. If you shout loud enough, WotC will listen, because it profits them to listen.

[Dausuul]

For all those people who are complaining about WotC not telling you that they were going to be updating 3.5. Think about it a bit. Did you really expect them to come out and say "Don't buy anything that we are going to be selling, because we are putting out a new edition eventually."

They're a business, whose goal is to make profit. Anyone who *didn't* see something like this coming was being quite self-deceiving.

Indeed. Although I'd prefer that they adopt a tactic of saying "We cannot comment on future editions" whenever asked about such things, starting the first time someone asks about 5E (or 4.5E). That way they wouldn't have to flat-out lie about it.

But obviously they aren't going to provide years and years of lead time on the announcement; I think they gave us as much as they reasonably could without hurting their own business unduly. Even as it is, sales of 3.5E stuff are going to plummet over the next few months. I was planning to buy Monster Manual V just a few days ago; now I'm going to pass on it and wait for 4E instead.