League of Legends LXVIII: "MY PICK'EMS!" Part II: Who Didn't Get Out of Groups?

[Dienekes]

I mean I'd say if there are only two records, only the latter I was personally aware of, then it really isn't that modern. It was also the Roman way to say commanders should fight near the front but how much it this was observed in comparison for instance to Caesars own records that mention his use of messengers to relay commands while he oversaw the battle. Alexander is probably the most celebrated front line commander, but even his father Phillip supposedly stayed away from the front.

I wouldn't say it's really a modern thing, more so depends on what army you are talking about, since examples of both exist going back two millennium

The translation I’ve read had that he sent messengers to other fronts of the battle. Not specifically calling out that he was away from it. Battles are complicated things, if you are trying to tell your auxiliary cavalry to not charge until their force is committed unless you are with that auxiliary cavalry you will need to send a messenger.

And while Alexander is definitely the premier warrior general, Philip did fight with his own cavalry several times. Most of the great generals I know have at least one under their belt. Scipio Africanus, Hannibal, Sulla, Pompey, Antony, Pausanias, Epaminondas, and so on.

[mrcarter11]

I'm not sure that disagrees with anything I said. I guess the Phillip comment might.

[9mm]

So Riot is messing with Annie's lore.

wild mass guessing time: One of Swain's special interactions is with Jinx, is actually supposed to be with Anne, but is with on Jinx for testing purposes to hide what they are doing with Annie for now.

[Ivellius]

wild mass guessing time: One of Swain's special interactions is with Jinx, is actually supposed to be with Anne, but is with on Jinx for testing purposes to hide what they are doing with Annie for now.

I don't think this is actually the case, as Riot has given Jinx a tragic background, too, but I did think how odd it was when I saw the Annie teaser that Swain would mention Jinx's backstory and now there's another child whose backstory begins in flames.

[Ashen Lilies]

New Champion Roadmap is up

tl;dr

Next champion is going to be a Void(?) Marksman with similar high-risk playstyle as Vayne.

Irelia is keeping her current Q, and a playstyle revolving around harassing and then initiating. She may or may not have some sort of anti-shield/shield breaking/shield piercing mechanic, if Riot wordplay can be trusted.

Aatrox is going to have a big, bloodthirsty sword.

Next two reworks after Irelia and Aatrox are going to be Akali and (not confirmed, but very probably) Nunu. Akali is going to be keeping her W mechanic in some fashion, playstyle goals are to give her an actual laning phase, make her less snowball reliant, and less "all or nothing" when it comes to jumping on people.

Edit: Nunu is going to be just as snowball reliant, if teaser image can be trusted. :U

[Makensha]

Aatrox is going to have a big, bloodthirsty sword.

So he's getting a . . . bloodthirster.

[Ashen Lilies]

bitch, he is the bloodthirster

edit: bloodthiirster. bloodthirsteer. blooodthirster?

[Dienekes]

Alright, doing the "not Pantheon" dance.

[Olinser]

New Champion Roadmap is up

tl;dr

Next champion is going to be a Void(?) Marksman with similar high-risk playstyle as Vayne.

Irelia is keeping her current Q, and a playstyle revolving around harassing and then initiating. She may or may not have some sort of anti-shield/shield breaking/shield piercing mechanic, if Riot wordplay can be trusted.

Aatrox is going to have a big, bloodthirsty sword.

Next two reworks after Irelia and Aatrox are going to be Akali and (not confirmed, but very probably) Nunu. Akali is going to be keeping her W mechanic in some fashion, playstyle goals are to give her an actual laning phase, make her less snowball reliant, and less "all or nothing" when it comes to jumping on people.

Edit: Nunu is going to be just as snowball reliant, if teaser image can be trusted. :U

Funny the description that they give perfectly matches Quinn. Who turned out to be such a great marksman that nobody plays her in bot lane.

[thracian]

Funny the description that they give perfectly matches Quinn. Who turned out to be such a great marksman that nobody plays her in bot lane.

Marksman != ADC. Quinn was a contested marksman for a while, and considered OP multiple times since rework.

[Olinser]

Marksman != ADC. Quinn was a contested marksman for a while, and considered OP multiple times since rework.

She was released weak and had to be buffed in 2 consecutive patches then was still weak all throughout season 4 until her gameplay update in season 5 when they finally stopped trying to make her an ADC.

[thracian]

She was released weak and had to be buffed in 2 consecutive patches then was still weak all throughout season 4 until her gameplay update in season 5 when they finally stopped trying to make her an ADC.

Yes, she was a super strong marksman when they stopped trying to make her an ADC. That is, reading between the lines, what I said.

[mrcarter11]

I'm pretty sure you just agreed with him.

Also in a similar vein, anyone know where you can look at ban/pick/win rates for previous seasons?

[Olinser]

Yes, she was a super strong marksman when they stopped trying to make her an ADC. That is, reading between the lines, what I said.

The point is that the only reason Quinn was successful at all was because the community stopped playing her an an ADC and Riot finally followed suit with their rework.

When they use Vayne as their starting comparison point for a new champion, Riot is going to try to make them an ADC. So it's highly relevant that their description matches the champion that previously failed spectacularly as an ADC.

[thracian]

The point is that the only reason Quinn was successful at all was because the community stopped playing her an an ADC and Riot finally followed suit with their rework.

When they use Vayne as their starting comparison point for a new champion, Riot is going to try to make them an ADC. So it's highly relevant that their description matches the champion that previously failed spectacularly as an ADC.

Why does using an ADC as a starting point for a champion mean the resulting champion is intended to be an ADC? Hell, why does having a champion intended to be a bot-lane ADC mean that they end up being played as an ADC? Look at Graves, look at Lucian, look at Corki. Just because they're making a marksman doesn't mean they're making an ADC.

[Nadevoc]

If they're not aiming for it to be a bot lane ADC, that's a big disappointment. It's a role with a small champion pool which is dwindling as champions like those you mentioned get siphoned off into other positions, AND marksmen in other roles have historically been a giant pain to get to a point where they're not just overwhelming lane bullies. Heck, Quinn is still in a problematic place top lane because she's massively frustrating to lane against when she's at all strong.

[Makensha]

I would argue that by the time Quinn's rework went through, they had already established that she had an interesting identity as a ranged AD assassin that could be expanded upon and the bits of her kit that made her an ADC were neither interesting or beloved by its players. Why try to force something when no one wants it?

Since this new champion has no preconceived notions of what is expected from their kit, I have faith that Riot's dev team will make something good, though I could see it becoming more of a jungler than a bot laner. Some may say their track record is a little muddled, but I think its improved dramatically in the last 3 years or so.

[Ivellius]

Since this new champion has no preconceived notions of what is expected from their kit, I have faith that Riot's dev team will make something good, though I could see it becoming more of a jungler than a bot laner. Some may say their track record is a little muddled, but I think its improved dramatically in the last 3 years or so.

Though they're over exactly three years by this point, Azir and Kalista are noticeably bad examples of more recent champions. Release Ekko had some really dumb things in his kit (no mana cost on his ultimate? lol), and Zoe still needs more counterplay. But yeah, the past few years have also had some really good designs: Kayn, nuGalio (even if it came with the removal of the old one), Ornn, Kled, Rakan, Aurelion Sol, Jhin (even if numbers have sometimes been overtuned) would be ones I'd hold up as particularly good.

[Dienekes]

My only real problem with the information is that things that reference Vayne as your role model while throwing out words like high risk and high reward makes me think that the champion is going to be hyper mobile. I personally think there are already too much easy mobility in the game.

[EternalMelon]

Annie's video and story are out.

Spoiler

Show

Wow, that was seriously good. Great soundtrack, and interesting art style. Kinda wish it had more fps but the art and sound design was on point. At first I thought they would make her more psychotic from the start, but I really like how they emphasized the selfishness of child morality to turn her into a monster (everyone knows children are the most evil of all things).

With her story on the universe page it looks like her youth and upbringing molded her into the psychopath we get in game, too young and too ignorant to see what she is doing is wrong...

[Ashen Lilies]

My only real problem with the information is that things that reference Vayne as your role model while throwing out words like high risk and high reward makes me think that the champion is going to be hyper mobile. I personally think there are already too much easy mobility in the game.

Last two marksmen releases were Jhin and Xayah. I suppose we're due for another marksman with mobility.

I'd also call the state of botlane pretty balanced in regards to mobility. Tristana is pretty strong and popular, Kalista... exists... and Vayne and Ezreal were recently (prior to nerfs) in meta, but champions like Kog, Varus, Jinx, and Caitlyn (has a dash, but I'd hardly call her "hyper mobile") are pretty good right now as well. Especially with Lucian migrating to mid (and top) lane and Vayne and Ezreal getting nerfed, I don't think it's too burdensome on the meta right now to add another mobile carry into the mix.

[Dienekes]

Last two marksmen releases were Jhin and Xayah. I suppose we're due for another marksman with mobility.

I'd also call the state of botlane pretty balanced in regards to mobility. Tristana is pretty strong and popular, Kalista... exists... and Vayne and Ezreal were recently (prior to nerfs) in meta, but champions like Kog, Varus, Jinx, and Caitlyn (has a dash, but I'd hardly call her "hyper mobile") are pretty good right now as well. Especially with Lucian migrating to mid (and top) lane and Vayne and Ezreal getting nerfed, I don't think it's too burdensome on the meta right now to add another mobile carry into the mix.

Kalista got nerfed into the dump and is staying there because of the mobility in her kit. And you generally expect Vayne to get a damage nerf whenever she becomes above average because of the mobility in her kit.

But then, I don’t really play bot lane. I just know the annoyance of ever having to try and pin down the mobile adcs in a game where the majority of late game team fights revolve around who protects their adc better. When the adc can get out of dodge or protect themselves, well, that’s game over for assassins and divers.

As to the video. Very pretty.

[thracian]

Kalista got nerfed into the dump and is staying there because of the mobility in her kit. And you generally expect Vayne to get a damage nerf whenever she becomes above average because of the mobility in her kit.

But then, I don’t really play bot lane. I just know the annoyance of ever having to try and pin down the mobile adcs in a game where the majority of late game team fights revolve around who protects their adc better. When the adc can get out of dodge or protect themselves, well, that’s game over for assassins and divers.

Yes, when mobile champions turn out to also be stronger damage dealers than immobile champions, they nerf the mobile champion. It's not necessarily because they're mobile, it's because they have too much overall. Why does Kalista get nerfed when she deals less damage than Jinx or Kog? Because she also has mobility, and engage, and neutral secures, and a strong early game, so she shouldn't also be dealing comparable damage. Why does Vayne get to deal insane damage while also having mobility? Because she is short-range, has a terrible early game, has no wave clear and weak tower pressure. If she didn't have top-end damage, why would anyone play her? If I want a mobile, short ranged ADC who doesn't deal lategame damage, I should just pick Lucian. At least he has an early game!

[Ashen Lilies]

Unsolicited ADC mobility tier list. Because bored.

Tier 0 (immobile: literally has to stand still to do damage): Jhin, Miss Fortune - while ulting

Tier 1 (low mobility: little or no in-fight repositioning abilities): Ashe, Jinx w/o Excited, Kog'maw, Twitch, Varus

Tier 1.25: Any Tier 1 champion running Fleet Footwork.

Tier 1.5 (no dashes, but are The Fast):

Draven, Sivir, Jhin, Jinx w/ Excited, Teemo, Miss Fortune - Draven and Jhin require basic attacks; Jinx requires kills; Teemo and Miss Fortune require not taking damage, though they both get a reactivation after taking damage the first time. Sivir ultimate is an ultimate.

Xayah - no true dash, slightly less The Fast (requires basic attacks) but ultimate lets her reposition while skipping over incoming damage or cc.

Tier 2 (mobile - one reliable reposition per engagement): Caitlyn, Corki w/o package, Quinn, mini!Gnar

Tier 3 (very mobile - around two to three repositions per engagement): Corki w/ package, Ezreal - has to land Q, Graves - has to land basic attacks

Tier 3.5 (extremely mobile - heavily conditional or limited frequent repositioning per engagement):

Vayne w/o ult, Kalista - dashes all the time, but require targets in basic attack range and move in short hops rather than dramatic repositioning.

Kindred - only while inside W zone. Short hops.

Tier 3.75: Vayne w/ ult - doesn't dash any farther, but running around while invisible helps to gain distance and bamboozle your enemies

Tier 4 (hyper-mobile - three or more repositions per engagement): Lucian - require targets in basic attack range to access more repositions

Tier X: Tristana - ranges from Tier 2 to Tier 4 depending on whether she's winning or not*

It's worth pointing out how many of these abilities rely on being in at least basic attack range in order to get access to repositions beyond the first, meaning their free mobility isn't that free. Only Ezreal gets to truly play like a bitch while also jumping all the places, and that's pretty much what makes him special.




*also has a 300 magic damage point-and-click ultimate at level 6, because that's totally fair**

**completely unrelated to mobility discussion, but still worth mentioning***

***ily melon

[Makensha]

Though they're over exactly three years by this point, Azir and Kalista are noticeably bad examples of more recent champions. Release Ekko had some really dumb things in his kit (no mana cost on his ultimate? lol), and Zoe still needs more counterplay. But yeah, the past few years have also had some really good designs: Kayn, nuGalio (even if it came with the removal of the old one), Ornn, Kled, Rakan, Aurelion Sol, Jhin (even if numbers have sometimes been overtuned) would be ones I'd hold up as particularly good.

Out of your negative examples, the only one that I believe is truly problematic is Kalista, as her core identity keeps her in that awkward Irelian spot where she's not really allowed to be good while also fulfilling her fantasy. Maybe my standards are just lower, but Azir, Ekko, and Zoe all have issues that can be(/have been) dealt with by changing some numbers. I'm not sure I'd agree with Ornn being a good design, as he seems a bit. . . bland and binary. So yeah as far as I'm concerned Riot has a pretty good track record.

[Nadevoc]

Azir has also had a couple mini-reworks to make him less problematic. He's no longer a super-long-range hyper-mobile sustained burst assassin with disengage and massive tower damage. His release kit was just full of problems (and I don't mean all the bugs he had, although there's that, too).

Kallista's in kind of the same boat as release Azir where there's just too much that her kit says she should be good at (mobility, damage (especially when near your spear-buddy), objective secure, engage-via-support/yoink-support-to-safety, vision).



Completely unrelated: It feels really bad to me that Mirror Shell and Iron Skin have so much of their power locked behind getting a shield or heal. I want to run them on tanks like Malphite, Rammus, Galio, etc, but most of those champions have no way to proc it themselves and won't usually be priority targets for any shields or heals allies have.

[Ashen Lilies]

Well, mostly it's locked behind consumables. It's a pretty clear dichotomy where Iron Skin/Mirror Shell are the clear "I'm against a lane bully and don't want to get **** on (as much)" runes and Conditioning is the strictly better option in all other cases where you don't think you'll need the rune to survive lane with.

[Nadevoc]

Hrm... To me, they read as if Mirror Shell or Iron Skin should be great options any game where you feel that you can specialize in one defense or the other, not as anti-lane bully options. Feels really awkward for Conditioning to be the obvious choice except on the off chance you're against Pantheon.

I can see what you're saying, but it still feels poorly designed to me.

[Dienekes]

Yes, when mobile champions turn out to also be stronger damage dealers than immobile champions, they nerf the mobile champion. It's not necessarily because they're mobile, it's because they have too much overall. Why does Kalista get nerfed when she deals less damage than Jinx or Kog? Because she also has mobility, and engage, and neutral secures, and a strong early game, so she shouldn't also be dealing comparable damage. Why does Vayne get to deal insane damage while also having mobility? Because she is short-range, has a terrible early game, has no wave clear and weak tower pressure. If she didn't have top-end damage, why would anyone play her? If I want a mobile, short ranged ADC who doesn't deal lategame damage, I should just pick Lucian. At least he has an early game!

It’s a matter of scale here I think. I don’t believe Kalista at her height was ever outdamaging the strongest other adcs in a sit and attack one target until it dies test. But repositioning is power in this game. This is true for every class but it’s especially true for the adc role because of their risk/reward nature of the position. The adc is the highest damage dealer in the game. Their whole shtick is to deal damage to the team and not get caught in a bad position. Repositioning abilities and other get out of jail cards like Xayah’s ult basically act as a means of an adc to correct their mistake or even worse turn the table on the one that jumped on them in the first place. This ultimately wrecks the balance of the game, since now the adc gets tools to counter the classes designed to counter them. This was only added to with the delayed assassin damage rework.

You can disagree, but I should probably note. I dislike how adc’s have become a required position in the game. Outside of a few hilarious months of Ziggs bot. Games can have any weird thing top or jungle and mages or assassins and the occasional Yasuo share mid. But adcs must be bot because that class turns into most of your teams killing potential come the 20 minute mark and the only one that can shred a tank.

I guess I just miss the craziness of the game when I stared where everyone could just go anywhere. And having no adcs on your team wasn’t really noteworthy.

[Ashen Lilies]

WAIT

there's a literal ashes + flowers themed icon in the store now

sorry chibi MF

my time has come