OOTS #1103 - The Discussion Thread

[ManuelSacha]

All the while, Scruffy is totally chill.
Toughest cat ever.

[The MunchKING]

I'm expecting Bloodfeast being used to punch a hole up through the surface, letting daylight through and showing that someone shouldn't have been ignoring protection from sunlight. But not now, later.

Punch through a MOUNTAIN??

Also IIRC didn't they say they arrived just after midnight? I know day always comes fast in Vampire stories, but if they have to actually fight for 6+ hours, I'm guessing they aren't going to make it.

[The MunchKING]

Durkon* probably should tell his minions not to spill the tactics that fast, though. Now the Order knows V is the priority target. As thralls to Durkon or one of the other vampires, these new guys may not have the flexibility to change tactics.

I think the idea was intimidation. If V knows she will get drained to negative levels the round after she drops the Forcecage, then she won't drop the Forcecage until she has a foolproof plan. And the longer the stall goes on the better for the Vampires.

[RatElemental]

All this talk about V and protection from evil and well, has it occurred to someone that even if V thought of that spell they'd have more sense than to cast it on a team that includes an evil team mate than Belkar, who is prepared to and has essentially cast it on himself before?

[alwaysbebatman]

Protection from Evil causing pain if cast on an Evil being is pure RP fluff. It's called "Protect" from Evil, not "Harm" Evil, after all...

Presumably, it's not actually costing Belkar HP, it just stings.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm

[fan4battle]

You can see her drop the hammer when Roy pulls her.

Yes, I noticed, that's why I asked where is it after that - it isn't present in the next panels, where the angle suggests the whole forcecage is shown. I could be wrong, but I thought the Giant may have forgotten to add it on the floor.

[BriarHobbit]

Well, this certainly looks tricky. Even if you put V in the middle, that is a large number of swarming vampire thralls. Do bards get dimension door? I am hoping that Elan has something that will help.

[danielxcutter]

Well, this certainly looks tricky. Even if you put V in the middle, that is a large number of swarming vampire thralls. Do bards get dimension door? I am hoping that Elan has something that will help.

No, but Elan does have Mass Cure Light Wounds. If he readies an action to cast it when V drops the Forcecage, he might clear out a good number of thralls.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, this certainly looks tricky. Even if you put V in the middle, that is a large number of swarming vampire thralls. Do bards get dimension door? I am hoping that Elan has something that will help.

They do. Elan, however, has almost certainly not taken it.

[danielxcutter]

They do. Elan, however, has almost certainly not taken it.

They have DD? Huh, must have gotten confused. He probably doesn't have it though, yeah.

[keybounce]

Wait! Hold on, it's possible that V has just the spell for this situation! If nothing else, it'll prevent gaze attacks.

Boy, the old comics ... note how the speech bubble goes outside the frame?

Hey, that's it. We just need them to go out the 4th wall, crawl past a few rectangle frame lines, and wind up far enough down the passageway. :-)

[BriarHobbit]

I just remembered that V has dimension door and could get a number of the Order out of the force wall. These vampire thralls are no doubt only the first line of defense.

[danielxcutter]

I just remembered that V has dimension door and could get a number of the Order out of the force wall. These vampire thralls are no doubt only the first line of defense.

V banned Conjuration... do you mean the Dimension Door boots? *That* might work.

[eilandesq]

Is the floor covered by the Forcecage? If not. . .

Spoiler

Show

. . .we've seen that V. has memorized Passwall in the past, and may well have done so again given that V. knew they were going to a dwarven stronghold with a lot of thick stonework that might need to be bypassed. V. could cast it on the floor to create a short tunnel, then the party could descend into it with V. in the rear and Roy in the front, after which V. could dismiss the Forcecage and Roy could Great Cleave the oncoming horde forced to come through a narrow path repeatedly until none were left (and presumably regain any negative levels through his sword's previously demonstrated ability.

[Rack]

Is the floor covered by the Forcecage? If not. . .

Spoiler

Show

. . .we've seen that V. has memorized Passwall in the past, and may well have done so again given that V. knew they were going to a dwarven stronghold with a lot of thick stonework that might need to be bypassed. V. could cast it on the floor to create a short tunnel, then the party could descend into it with V. in the rear and Roy in the front, after which V. could dismiss the Forcecage and Roy could Great Cleave the oncoming horde forced to come through a narrow path repeatedly until none were left (and presumably regain any negative levels through his sword's previously demonstrated ability.

You can clearly see that it is.

[Kardwill]

Which is kinda even more annoying seeing how the vampires are constantly making 100% full use of their template's advantages but their foes are never capitalizing on any of their weaknesses.

All the vampire attacks we've witnessed so far (Malack vs Durkon, Exarch vs pets, Durkon vs Roy, bloodsucking gang vs temple of Thor, and even this one) were more or less surprise attacks where the vampires knew the battle would come, could think about their tactics, choose their battleground and/or prepare themselves, while the Order had to react immediately to an unforeseen situation. So it's quite logical they get to grab the initiative and make full use of their advantages, while preventing their enemies to do the same.

In short : they have an evil DM who loves to trick and surprise his players.

And we've never seen V, a neutral elf, cast a "protection from evil" spell, so we have no reason to think s/he knows that spell. Even a Wizard's spellbook is not infinite, there are choices to be made, and until some very recent events those spells were Durkon's niche.

[M.A.D]

We don't actually know if Elan or Haley has a wand that can cast Disintegrate, do we? That might be an option. Alternatively, can the party maybe just take the damages for as long as it takes for V to cast again?

Boy, the old comics ... note how the speech bubble goes outside the frame?

They still do though.

[Trillium]

I can't guarantee this, but I'm fairly sure that was a one-time joke and we'll never see that spell again.

Wouldn't be the first time a one-off or out-of-continuity joke became a chekov's gun.

[M.A.D]

Wouldn't be the first time a one-off or out-of-continuity joke became a chekov's gun.

Other jokes, sure. But some people are sensitive to rape-related humor, so the Giant had made a decision not to include any of those material into the comic again, ever. I remember him expressively stating that he regrets putting that one in in the first place after getting complains from a few readers.

[Riftwolf]

It'd be hilarious if The Gentlemen Below pull V to protect himer.

I can get behind this as a gambit for Roy. After all, he knows about Vs deal, the vamps probably don't. He could order V to drop the cage, forcing the IFCCs hand; they can either pull V to protect their investment, or the vamps kill V and the fiends lose their stake. The vamps waste their attacks on V (s/he survived the pyramid exploding, so it's likely during the soul steal their body is impervious) while the Order gets to take out the trash mobs.
Reasons to believe this is a possibility? We've had a subtle reminder about demons in this comic. And a (more tenuous) reference to 'playing dead'.

[Trillium]

Other jokes, sure. But some people are sensitive to rape-related humor, so the Giant had made a decision not to include any of those material into the comic again, ever. I remember him expressively stating that he regrets putting that one in in the first place after getting complains from a few readers.

But I did explain how those connotations can be omitted. Just drop the "Forced Intrusion" part and leave it a spell that summons multiple spiky tentacles to strangle enemies.

[Riftwolf]

We don't actually know if Elan or Haley has a wand that can cast Disintegrate, do we?

Unlikely. Wands only hold 4th level or lower spells, Disintegrate is 6th (from memory). Also the idea of walking into a random shop and being able to buy an item that could conceivably turn a castle into rubble and dust is *probably* less likely than a civilised society selling Amulets of Prot. Vs. Law.

[M.A.D]

But I did explain how those connotations can be omitted. Just drop the "Forced Intrusion" part and leave it a spell that summons multiple spiky tentacles to strangle enemies.

Ah, right. If you put it that way, that actually sounds very much plausible lol. It's probably one of the things that could surprise the vampiric Durkon and throw his plans out of whack too! He's getting his ways way too much, recently. I mean, dude was piling up so many plans atop each other, it's tripping the Order every frikking steps along the way. Quite frustrating, really.

Unlikely. Wands only hold 4th level or lower spells, Disintegrate is 6th (from memory). Also the idea of walking into a random shop and being able to buy an item that could conceivably turn a castle into rubble and dust is *probably* less likely than a civilised society selling Amulets of Prot. Vs. Law.

Ah, that's a pity. But I guess that should be expected. It took V only 3 spells to defeat a small dragon after all.

[Trillium]

I can get behind this as a gambit for Roy. After all, he knows about Vs deal, the vamps probably don't. He could order V to drop the cage, forcing the IFCCs hand; they can either pull V to protect their investment, or the vamps kill V and the fiends lose their stake. The vamps waste their attacks on V (s/he survived the pyramid exploding, so it's likely during the soul steal their body is impervious) while the Order gets to take out the trash mobs.
Reasons to believe this is a possibility? We've had a subtle reminder about demons in this comic. And a (more tenuous) reference to 'playing dead'.

But WHY would fiends want to protect V? V is useless, hir soul is already bound for damnation at this point.
The only reason for them to pull V is to PREVENT hir from participating in anything.
Of what use to them is V on material plane?


Although I wonder...
What if V giveы hirself up to vampires? A vampirized wizard of such caliber could conceivably rival Xykon and pose grave threat to Fiends' plans. Since body sort-of comes in package with soul (allowing Fiends to protect the body against harm when pulling the soul), could Fiends just pick ANOTHER soul inhabiting said body? V gets vamped, Fiends begrugingly pull the vampiric spirit out of it, leaving V a free-willed vampire wizard with V fully in control?

[Riftwolf]

But WHY would fiends want to protect V? V is useless, hir soul is already bound for damnation at this point.
The only reason for them to pull V is to PREVENT hir from participating in anything.
Of what use to them is V on material plane?


Although I wonder...
What if V giveы hirself up to vampires? A vampirized wizard of such caliber could conceivably rival Xykon and pose grave threat to Fiends' plans. Since body sort-of comes in package with soul (allowing Fiends to protect the body against harm when pulling the soul), could Fiends just pick ANOTHER soul inhabiting said body? V gets vamped, Fiends begrugingly pull the vampiric spirit out of it, leaving V a free-willed vampire wizard with V fully in control?

At the moment, V is the IFCCs insider in the Order. S/hes their presence on the board. It makes more sense 'IFCC pull V to keep their hand in the game' than 'IFCC pull Vs vampire spirit (if the Order don't immediately go full Helsing when s/he awakes, and if the vampires know the quickening spell, have it prepared and would use it on V) because free-willed (Why would IFCC care about free will? They actively obstruct it) Vamp V would be powerful enough to fight an opponent they don't want defeating anyway (remember they didn't want Xykon destroyed, they wanted Xykon to stop sitting round).

Vs soul isn't auto-damned, but the path to redemption is steep. And at the moment, s/he's an agent in the story. Dead, s/he's another soul on the pile.

[Trillium]

At the moment, V is the IFCCs insider in the Order. S/hes their presence on the board. It makes more sense 'IFCC pull V to keep their hand in the game' than 'IFCC pull Vs vampire spirit (if the Order don't immediately go full Helsing when s/he awakes, and if the vampires know the quickening spell, have it prepared and would use it on V) because free-willed (Why would IFCC care about free will? They actively obstruct it) Vamp V would be powerful enough to fight an opponent they don't want defeating anyway (remember they didn't want Xykon destroyed, they wanted Xykon to stop sitting round).

Vs soul isn't auto-damned, but the path to redemption is steep. And at the moment, s/he's an agent in the story. Dead, s/he's another soul on the pile.

I meant if (s)he dies right now, (s)he goes to Hell (in general sense), because (s)he ain't redeemed hirself yet.
And they can't force V to do anything on material plane, influence Order's actions or do stuff like that.
Roy knows to plan around V being pulled, so they can't really bet on catching Order off-guard with pulling.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but its even more roundabout, requiring one basically get absorbed into the plane and then spat out as a celestial. The evil afterlives at least start you off as a baby demon/devil/whatever.

Thanks for the clarification.

Possible useful things:
Vampires recoil from a strongly presented holy symbol. This is non-optional. Minrah, being at least part Cleric, almost certainly is carrying a holy symbol. The rules are vague on if you can present a symbol at more than one vampire at a time, but artistic license could allow for it.. if the Order can find a better solution to the Domination gazes plus any spells that may be available to the vampires who are actual vampires and not just thralls, they may simply be able to walk out of the situation. Or at least keep any vampires from touching V and draining more levels from him. (This would also be an avenue where Minrah can a: be directly useful despite being severely underlevel for this fight and b: much less likely to get killed.) Vampires also recoil from mirrors, and Haley probably has one on her person.

Minrah has a holy symbol it is clearly visible when Fangstone dominates her (no, not like that).And you can see that Fangstoneis still wearing his as is Jerkon, so I am not sure how efficient that would be.

Knowing they were going in to face at least 5 vampires, I can't believe V doesn't have at least a couple slots devoted to Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil. Or would that be too easy?

Wait 5 ? They were expecting 4 no more, no less.

I can get behind this as a gambit for Roy. After all, he knows about Vs deal, the vamps probably don't. He could order V to drop the cage, forcing the IFCCs hand; they can either pull V to protect their investment, or the vamps kill V and the fiends lose their stake. The vamps waste their attacks on V (s/he survived the pyramid exploding, so it's likely during the soul steal their body is impervious) while the Order gets to take out the trash mobs.
Reasons to believe this is a possibility? We've had a subtle reminder about demons in this comic. And a (more tenuous) reference to 'playing dead'.

I really cn't see Roy risking the life of friend on such low odds like that. That would be a huge gamble.

But WHY would fiends want to protect V? V is useless, hir soul is already bound for damnation at this point.
The only reason for them to pull V is to PREVENT hir from participating in anything.
Of what use to them is V on material plane?


Although I wonder...
What if V giveы hirself up to vampires? A vampirized wizard of such caliber could conceivably rival Xykon and pose grave threat to Fiends' plans. Since body sort-of comes in package with soul (allowing Fiends to protect the body against harm when pulling the soul), could Fiends just pick ANOTHER soul inhabiting said body? V gets vamped, Fiends begrugingly pull the vampiric spirit out of it, leaving V a free-willed vampire wizard with V fully in control?

Even if Roy knows about the deal, the situation is still possibly positive for the fiends. See, as long as it is possible for his wizard to be yanked out of the fight, Roy is forced to under-utilize his best asset resulting in V contributing less than he could to more than two fights.

I didn't get this feeling until you mentioned it. Dwarves, at least these dwarves, are highly social. He could have been a mentor or a trusted friend, so hopping around the planes to bop demons on the head with a hammer with a good friend sounds more like something Minrah wants in a non-romantic sense: Validation as a cleric (She might have some fighter levels) and glorious battle.

Yeah I think I was reding more to it than what was there. Probably because vampires have an history of subtext and allegories.

[Kardwill]

And they can't force V to do anything on material plane, influence Order's actions or do stuff like that.

They can count on V to accomplish the OOTS objectives. Meaning that as long as those align with the fiend's (getting rid of the competition like X and RC, getting the order in the vicinity of the Gates...) they can let him do his stuff, and when they don't (like actually saving the world from whatever is lurking behind the scene), they can draw him back to Hel.

They don't really care for V's soul. That's just icing on the cake. They have a gambit going about the gates/snarl/riftworld, and recruited him to have an asset that allow them to influence the actions of the order about these gates (just like they did manipulate the Linear Guild to create chaos around the other gates). In that scenario, unless they want Hel's victory (which feels unlikely), V dying would be a waste of ressource, so they might be willing to use one of their timeouts to save his life (and their ability to use the last timeout when it really hurts).
I don't think the situation will be solved like that (not enough foreshadowing, it would feel like it came from nowhere), but it would be a possible course of action for the Unholy Trio.

[zimmerwald1915]

one of their timeouts

Worth noting: the last timeout was Cedric's 20 minutes, 35 seconds (206 rounds). See Strip 897 (Nero says "his colleague" is exercising his option on Vaarsuvius's soul, while gesturing to Cedric.). Lee's timeout would also be 20 minutes, 35 seconds, while Nero's would be 3 minutes, 10 seconds (31 rounds). See Strip 667 (Cedric quotes these figures for Nero. See also Strip 641 (Haerta was Nero's contribution, as can be seen by her purple aura and by Nero needing to "send someone out to collect her soul," and Vaarsuvius lost her first).

[Turin_19]

Isn't this the perfect opportunity to showcase some new incredible Roy's Weapon of Legacy that will be extremely effective against vampires?

I mean, even dismiss the Forcecage (less likely), or create some kind of aura for everyone else?