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2017-12-29, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-29, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
So yes, if you stop playing D&D you can avoid the problems. Because if you do so, you're getting rid of the entire system. Which is a rather baby and bathwater solution to a problem that only really exists (in acute form) in a single edition. Neither 4e nor 5e (both of which have scaling HP and levels) suffer from this particular problem. And doing so (especially changing the scaling HP) changes the genre--you no longer have heroic fantasy, you have something much more gritty. Which may be to some people's taste, but it's not to mine.
Biased comment is biased.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2017-12-29, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
The objection is that the mundane is defined as being the best at his job, which is not how those counters work (you remember the thread about "countering hard counters"?). Also, the "hard counter" paradigm geuinely is bad, and should be replaced by something like opposed caster level checks.
I mean, yeah? As in, yeah the veteran is better at tech than the wizard? It's not like a hang glider with an ego or literally anything remotely explosive are beyond people's capabilities at this point.
I'm aware that something I don't want to do is possible but that doesn't help me do what I want to do.
I believe the convention is to let this thread die, wait until someone posts a new thread on a nominally related topic, then rehash the same arguments with a randomly permuted subset of the participants.
Cool. And I don't like the idea of running away from giant monsters. So I don't play at low level. It turns out the entire game does not exist to service you.
The thing to understand about Jormengand is that they genuinely think the Truenamer is a well designed class. So when they sit down to write something, they assume that making insane assertions about how abilities "just work" and ignoring all the related rules and precedent is how you are supposed to do things. It should not surprise you at all that a class they wrote is a garbage fire of brokeness because all it's abilities are asserted as "just working". Notably this is not actually how casters work, and is not in any sense necessary to compete with them. finger of death doesn't specifically negate all possible defenses against it. Saying your instant death ability counters "a clause in its stat block explicitly preventing it from being instantly killed" is the kind of think you expect to see out of children playing cops and robbers, not serious efforts at game design. "I have a super death lazer, it goes through your shield! Nuh uh, I have an ultra shield, it stops every kind of lazer even ones that say they go through shields! Nuh uh, I have an omega lazer, it can't be blocked even by things that say they block omega lazers!"
Consider this ability:
Originally Posted by SRD, Balor
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2017-12-29, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-29, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
The Mod Wonder: Oh, look, page 50. May I suggest that those of you who are still into this topic reconvene soon, with some more narrow focuses?
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2017-12-29, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
Only by significantly toning down the damage progression, and if that dragon doesn't hit much harder than a regular human, that's not what I'd call heroic fantasy.
-------------------------------
On a different tack, I decided to compare the class features of 3.5e fighters with 3.5e sorcerers. Fighters are notoriously T4, Sorcerers T2. The major class features of each class are simple: fighters get bonus feats, sorcerers get spells.
A quick calculation shows that (except at 1st level), a fighter gets about 1/4 as many bonus feats (cumulative) as a sorcerer knows spells (also cumulative). To have rough balance, that means that a fighter feat must be "worth" about 4 times as much as a sorcerer's spell. To account for the other things like BAB, proficiencies, bigger HD, I'll knock that down to 2x as much.
Is each fighter bonus feat worth 2x as much? Not even close.
Making it worse,
a) the bonus feats come from a very narrow list, restricted to basically just combat effects. Most of them are trap options in fact.
b) the sorcerer can trade out a spell known every other level. While slow, this allows ditching poor-scaling spells for better ones or fixing mistakes.
c) sorcerers draw from the wizard list, which is huge and varied, including a large variety of non-combat capabilities.
d) fighter feats are often locked behind prerequisite chains, making you have to waste precious feats on useless things (dodge anyone?)
Purely from a system perspective, this is crappy design. One potential fix would be to give fighters actual class features or make fighter bonus feats actually worth something and exclusive (which is the same thing). Do that and start trimming the spell bloat and you'd come closer to parity without slaughtering any sacred cows or destroying any reasonable concepts.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2017-12-29, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
In D&D past level 7 or so? Unfortunately, yes. Unless there's a way to give someone else Evasion I don't know about.
It's occurred to me a few times in threads like this: A scene I see a lot in fantasy art is an armored knight using their shield to block a dragon's firey breath. YOU CAN'T DO THIS IN D&D.
"Mundane" characters in D&D stop existing around level 6, or maybe 10. The question then is whether you want an effective non-mundane character, or a speed-bump in plate armor.
If you want to play an E6 game, have fun with it.
".... Have you tried NOT playing D&D?"
How would you feel about someone in a semirealitic modern-day military game who flatly refused to use any weapon invented after 1000AD?Last edited by Arbane; 2017-12-29 at 01:11 PM.
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2017-12-29, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
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- Springfield, MO
Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
Magic in every way is a fact of life in Dungeons and Dragons. After reading this thread I think its a denial problem.
Either tolerate magic and its uses or choose not to. Don't just keep complaining about magic.
There have been many suggestions. Its possible to customize games to reduce magic or increase physical abilities. 4th and 5th are whole editions that do that. Have you tried them?
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2017-12-29, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-29, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
You can, if you interpret a shield as cover, and make use of the cover bonuses to saves. Table 44 in the 2e DMG lays out bonuses, with 25% cover (a small shield) giving a +2, a medium shield giving a +4, and a body shield (90% cover) giving a +10 AND half damage on a failed save, and no damage on a successful one... and you can take cover behind your shield to increase its percentage coverage. Your shield would have to make an item save, but that's why Beowulf had a metal shield made... metal's saves against Magical Fire are a lot better than the thin wood of a shield.
I don't have any idea of what you're talking about.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2017-12-29, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
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2017-12-29, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
Optimizing vs Roleplay
If the worlds greatest optimizer makes a character and hands it to the worlds greatest roleplayer who roleplays the character. What will happen? Will the Universe implode?
Roleplaying vs Fun
If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.
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2017-12-29, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Changing the "Caster beats Mundane" paradigm
The Mod Wonder: As I understand it, there's a chance of instability or some other problem with super-long threads that we're trying to head off. I am not one of the more technical mods, so I don't precisely know. We try to stop them at 50, but some slip through the cracks.
But, this seems as good a place as any to lock this thread. If you're going to restart, consider narrowing the scope.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.