Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Xihirli]

Linking back to previous discussion

We're past the two non-movie arcs with the next arc announced. We've had a Universal Tournament and a Future Trunks arc. A LOT of fanservice all around, but overall I like it. I love Trunks's Super Saiyan Blue False form and that Goku has not yet won a major fight in the series. That's funny to me, he's won against Pooh Bear (Botamo) and two inconsequential sparring sessions.
And we got a tease at the end of a possible return of the fighting Gohan. Maybe he'll unlock Super Saiyan Blue false, or just use divine ki with his Mystic form.
Can't wait to see Hit again. I just overall like this.

[The Troubadour]

Yeah, but fusions have the combined skills of the fuses [...]

Not necessarily. Gotenks can become Super Saiyan 3 when neither Goten nor Trunks can do the same, for instance. Barring any other information, I'm inclined to go with the assessment of the character who's been repeatedly shown to know what he's talking about when it comes to fighting power AND was directly involved with the situation.

[Rater202]

Yeah, but Gotenks doesn't lose any power or abillities from his compnents, either.

the simplest solution is that Goku is bad at math and doesn't know what multiplication means

[The Troubadour]

Not all combinations are automatically stronger than the original being. Remember that Kid Boo was actually weakened by absorbing two of the Kaioshins.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the multiplication part? I only found references to fusions being stronger than the sum of their parts, not that it necessarily multiplies the power of one by the other.

[Spamotron]

As far as I know the Fusion multiplies the participants power is a Databook thing but has never been mentioned by Toriyama himself in Manga or interviews.

[Rater202]

Not all combinations are automatically stronger than the original being. Remember that Kid Boo was actually weakened by absorbing two of the Kaioshins.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the multiplication part? I only found references to fusions being stronger than the sum of their parts, not that it necessarily multiplies the power of one by the other.

I remember elder kai saying something along the lines of Patora fusion specifically being a multiplication of the two powers.

And strictly speaking, Buu only got weaker from absorbing Grand Supreme Kai. I think the explanation is that Grand Supreme Kai's innocent nature and inherant pure goodness was so radically differant from Buu's originally existance as a near mindless being a evil, chaos, and distruction that it caused a reaction that sealed away a good chunk of Buu's power.(Since there's no Grand or Muscle Supreme Kai insid Buu's head, I'm operating on the assumption that Grand Supreme Kai somehow did a permamant fusion on purpose but I've got not backing for that beyond "it makes sense.")

And if my understanding is correct, Super Buu was the strongest Buu because, having defeated his evil side, he had the full power of the original Buu and that Supreme Kai power, and I think it's at least theorized that some of Buu's mater manipulation powers comes from having absorbed two Gods of Creation(You don't see Kid Buu making matter out of nowhere or turning things to candy)

[Future Sword]

Pretty sure Vados said something like "Fusion combines the warriors' power and then multiplies it tens of times".

Anyway, I think Kefla seeming weaker is intentional, starting out. I also think having her start off against Red Goku was done intentionally, to draw parallels between the two. When Goku first went God-mode, he did the same "fly right past the opponent by accident" thing.

[The Troubadour]

And if my understanding is correct, Super Buu was the strongest Buu because, having defeated his evil side, he had the full power of the original Buu and that Supreme Kai power, and I think it's at least theorized that some of Buu's mater manipulation powers comes from having absorbed two Gods of Creation(You don't see Kid Buu making matter out of nowhere or turning things to candy)

Kid Buu is explicitly stated to be stronger. As for whether he had the same powers, who knows? It's possible he was just too savage to even consider using them.

[Yuki Akuma]

Kid Buu is explicitly stated to be stronger. As for whether he had the same powers, who knows? It's possible he was just too savage to even consider using them.

Kid Buu is explicitly stated to be more dangerous.

[Lord Raziere]

Kid Buu is explicitly stated to be stronger. As for whether he had the same powers, who knows? It's possible he was just too savage to even consider using them.

Oh no, don't fall for that dubism. Kid Buu is not stronger than Super Buu, the entire final battle there is a supposed to be a subversion of the final battle being the strongest guys: neither Vegeta, goku or Kid Buu are at their strongest because the strongest had already happened which was Vegitto and Gohan Buu. Kid Buu and was also a subversion of SS3 solving things as the new upgrade. the entire point is that Kid Buu is n't stronger, he just has unlimited energy like the Androids 18 and 17, and unlike them will destroy things nonstop without reason holding him back. Super Buu was stronger but less dangerous because you could reason with him to an extent.

[Douglas]

Yeah, Kid Buu is definitely weaker than Gohan Buu, almost certainly weaker than Gotenks Buu, and probably weaker than base Super Buu.

What's bad about Kid Buu is that his behavior is essentially a non-stop rampage of destruction. Kid Buu's first action was to skip fighting and just blow up the Earth. Kid Buu cannot be appeased with cakes and other sweets. Kid Buu would never have agreed to wait while Gotenks got ready. Kid Buu wouldn't have even let Picollo finish requesting a delay, he probably would have just blown up the entire Lookout and gone hunting for Gotenks in the rubble. When Kid Buu's opponents flee, his response is to blow up planets as fast as he can teleport until they reveal themselves again. And when Kid Buu fights, he rarely pauses for taunts and banter.

[Rater202]

Kid Buu is explicitly stated to be stronger. As for whether he had the same powers, who knows? It's possible he was just too savage to even consider using them.

Kid Buu is explicitly not the strongest, as said, that's a dubism. He's might even be the weakest(it's not clarified if Daikaioshin's goodness sealing some of Buu's power made him weaker than his original form or weaker than the muscly form.)

Kid Buu is the most dangerous form of Buu because he's a barely sentient ball of chaos and sadism that slaughters the population of entire planets for fun and is literally incapable of holding back it's nearly infinite raw power.

(And the whole "had to atomize him to keep him dead" thing. If Buu wasn't a regenerator than he'd have died much much earliar in the arc.)

Super Buu can be reasoned with, can hold back "to make it more fun" and can be frightened or demoralized.

Fat Buu is innocent or childish. All it took to "defeat him" was for someone to act friendly and patiently explain that it's wrong to kill people for no reason.

Neither can be done to Kid Buu.

[Quiver]

Kid Buu and was also a subversion of SS3 solving things as the new upgrade.

This is something that I actually like about the ending of the Buu arc; the fact that it finally -finally- pays off on the Spirit Bomb being the ultimate finishing move. An attack literally powered by life being the move to destroy a creative that lives only to destroy, a technique taught by a god being the thing to finish off a demon, the fact that we finally managed to land a spirit bomb on an opponent and not have them crawl out of the wreckage...

That's very satisfying to me, and one of the reasons I'm so conflicted about the Buu arc. I feel like the spirit bomb needed to be paid off, since none of the earlier arcs ever made it seem that worthwhile (given it's ineffective track record)... but Gohan and/or Gotenks being the one(s) to defeat Buu and cement their place as the future saviors of earth is also important and satisfying.

The Buu arc is weird, and one I keep flipping back and forth on in terms of how I feel about it.

[The Troubadour]

"Dubism"? Uh, you guys know I'm not American, right? Other than some of the movies, I don't think I've ever seen any English dub of "Dragon Ball". :-) I'm going by the Brazilian and English manga translations, both of which state Kid Buu's chi is stronger than that of Super Buu (who, at the time, didn't have Gohan's or Gotenks' - or even Piccolo's - powers anymore).

So yeah, Super Buu having absorbed both Gotenks and Gohan - especially Gohan - is stronger than Kid Buu, but Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu at base level.

[Rater202]

"Dubism"? Uh, you guys know I'm not American, right? Other than some of the movies, I don't think I've ever seen any English dub of "Dragon Ball". :-) I'm going by the Brazilian and English manga translations, both of which state Kid Buu's chi is stronger than that of Super Buu (who, at the time, didn't have Gohan's or Gotenks' - or even Piccolo's - powers anymore).

So yeah, Super Buu having absorbed both Gotenks and Gohan - especially Gohan - is stronger than Kid Buu, but Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu at base level.

Your translations are faulty.

Officially, Kid Buu is weaker but more dangerous.

[The Troubadour]

No offense, but I put more faith in professional translators. :-)

[Rater202]

No offense, but I put more faith in professional translators. :-)

I'm checking now--Buu's power level goes up when he reverts to the "muscly kidd Buu form" but is then said to have gone once he fully reverts to Kid Buu.

If your translations left that out, then they're faulty.

Daizenshuu also explicitly gives him as weaker than the muscly form he got after Absorbing South Supreme Kai while also stating that Absorbing Grand Supreme Kai was the only time Buu's power was ever reduced from absorption, whichis in turn because Grand supreme Kai's goodness sealed away a good chunk of Fat buu's power.

Super Buu is Fat Buu after his evil side took over and completely suppressed his Goodness, thus making him much more powerful becuase he had access to the full power of the Supreme Kais he absorbed--which would make him stronger that Muscly Kid Buu, and thus, stronger than regular Kid Buu.

[Lemmy]

"Dubism"? Uh, you guys know I'm not American, right? Other than some of the movies, I don't think I've ever seen any English dub of "Dragon Ball". :-) I'm going by the Brazilian and English manga translations, both of which state Kid Buu's chi is stronger than that of Super Buu (who, at the time, didn't have Gohan's or Gotenks' - or even Piccolo's - powers anymore).

So yeah, Super Buu having absorbed both Gotenks and Gohan - especially Gohan - is stronger than Kid Buu, but Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu at base level.

That's odd... I read/watched the Brazilian version of DB and DBZ as well... And I distinctly remember Kid Buu being weaker than literally every other form, except Fat Buu (who was weaker because being made of pure evil, had his powers diminished/sealed by the purity/innocence of the Supreme Kai).

EDIT: Actually... I remember a passing comment about Buu also being weakened after absorbing the South Supreme Kai, just not as weakened as he was after absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai.

[The Troubadour]

I'm checking now--Buu's power level goes up when he reverts to the "muscly kidd Buu form" but is then said to have gone once he fully reverts to Kid Buu.

If your translations left that out, then they're faulty.

Again, professional translators > something found in a wiki article. (That should be a no-brainer, really.)
Also, the Daizenshuu weren't written by Toriyama, so, you know, they're rather less authoritative than the actual work.

[Divayth Fyr]

Again, professional translators > something found in a wiki article. (That should be a no-brainer, really.)
Also, the Daizenshuu weren't written by Toriyama, so, you know, they're rather less authoritative than the actual work.

What translators did != Toriyama's actual work.

And "professional" translators lead to Piccolo being called "Satan Little-Heart" in the Polish version...

[Lord Raziere]

What translators did != Toriyama's actual work.

And "professional" translators lead to Piccolo being called "Satan Little-Heart" in the Polish version...

and calling Korin "Whiskers the Wonder Cat" by another dub. yeah, that wasn't just a TFS joke, that actually happened.

[Anteros]

The English translation explicitly says he gets stronger after the absorbed people are ripped out. I don't read Japanese so I can't exactly compare it to the source material.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...2+-+LQ&page=66

Overall, I think the "kid buu is weaker" thing is something the fans came up with in order to justify the wacky power scaling.

[Lord Raziere]

The English translation explicitly says he gets stronger after the absorbed people are ripped out. I don't read Japanese so I can't exactly compare it to the source material.

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/d...2+-+LQ&page=66

Overall, I think the "kid buu is weaker" thing is something the fans came up with in order to justify the wacky power scaling.

no, Kid Buu being stronger is a fan thing people came up with to make the final battle seem more in line with common shonen expectations for everything being more powerful all the time when that doesn't make sense, given that nobody was fused, and therefore logically everyone was weaker, as per Toriyama's writing.

[Anteros]

no, Kid Buu being stronger is a fan thing people came up with to make the final battle seem more in line with common shonen expectations for everything being more powerful all the time when that doesn't make sense, given that nobody was fused, and therefore logically everyone was weaker, as per Toriyama's writing.

Well...that's a theory. It contradicts the link I just gave you though. I'm going to go with what the actual characters in the story say over fan theories and non-canon data books.

[Lord Raziere]

Well...that's a theory. It contradicts the link I just gave you though. I'm going to go with what the actual characters in the story say over fan theories and non-canon data books.

The muscle Buu. Not kid buu. two completely different forms.

that muscular forms being more powerful never mattered ever since Future Trunks got spanked by Perfect Cell in hulk saiyan form despite being more powerful. they're too bulky and not used, for a reason.

[Anteros]

The muscle Buu. Not kid buu. two completely different forms.

that muscular forms being more powerful never mattered ever since Future Trunks got spanked by Perfect Cell in hulk saiyan form despite being more powerful. they're too bulky and not used, for a reason.

I think you might be confused. The scene that I linked you is during Buu's transformation into kid Buu. That's when Goku says he's getting more powerful instead of weaker like they expected.

[Douglas]

I think you might be confused. The scene that I linked you is during Buu's transformation into kid Buu. That's when Goku says he's getting more powerful instead of weaker like they expected.

Yes, and it's at the point during said transformation where he's regressing through Muscle Buu form. Buu goes through a short series of transformations during that scene, going from Super Buu to Muscle Buu and then to Kid Buu. The comment you're pointing out comes during the Super Buu to Muscle Buu transformation.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, and it's at the point during said transformation where he's regressing through Muscle Buu form.

And muscle forms are always more powerful but stupid, slow and inefficient. even Buu knows not to use them.

[Anteros]

Yes, and it's at the point during said transformation where he's regressing through Muscle Buu form.

That is an enormous stretch. Why would they go out of the way to have Goku explicitly say he's getting stronger if they were only referring to him regressing through a form he's in for half a second? It makes no sense to write it that way if that's all they meant. It makes no sense to even include that scene it at all if it's meant to be interpreted the way you are. I don't believe that a bit.

If he goes on to get weaker after that, why does Goku say he wishes the transformation would stop? Why does the Kai get so upset? You'd think they'd be happy to see their opponent's power drastically decrease instead of freaking out.

[Douglas]

That is an enormous stretch. Why would they go out of the way to have Goku explicitly say he's getting stronger if they were only referring to him regressing through a form he's in for half a second? It makes no sense to write it that way if that's all they meant. It makes no sense to even include that scene it at all if it's meant to be interpreted the way you are. I don't believe that a bit.

If he goes on to get weaker after that, why does Goku say he wishes the transformation would stop? Why does the Kai get so upset? You'd think they'd be happy to see their opponent's power drastically decrease instead of freaking out.

Regardless of how long he's in that form, it is very clearly the form he's in - the appearance is drastically different from Kid Buu, and matches the form shown in the flashback when he had absorbed one Kai.

I don't know about the manga or original Japanese, but I just checked the English dub for that scene and it has Goku and Vegeta joking about how they had been worried once the Kid Buu transformation finishes.

As for why the Kai gets so upset, we've explained that already - Kid Buu is a non-stop killing machine that can't be reasoned with, and the Kai is the only one who knows that at that point. If that freakout were because of simple power, it would have been everyone freaking out, not just him, because they could all sense Buu's power level.